Anyone had good results in Max-OT training?

[quickups]

I have read the E-book and planning to do the 6 month plan road map. I am going to try to stick as closely as I can to the nutrional guidelines.

Anyone share their results?

Give the good and the bad.

[Eightpak]

Max-OT = awesome. I loved it and wouls definetly recomend it!

[jmusclehead]

It was helping me break through the plateaus that I had reached on certain exercises. I was happy with my strength gains, but, didn't get as much muscle as I would have liked. I may give it another go though.

[ace136]

yea, max-ot is good for strength, but as far as size and muscle gain it didnt seem to work to well for me.

[power-builder]

Max-OT is great for both strength and size. I've been using Max-OT principles for some time now. I think one of the keys to Max-OT nutrition wise is getting enough protein.

I know when I first tried Max-OT when I was starting out I got some nice strength gains but negligible size gains, it wasn't until I gave it another shot a few years later down road with a better more protein rich diet that I noticed solid muscle gains.

Remember, with Max-OT you're primarily going after sarcomere hypertrophy, not sarcoplasmic as with many of the higher rep, higher volume routines. So the old standard 1 gram of protein / lbs of bw will barely cut it, shoot for at least 1.5 with Max-OT

Check out my journal for more info about my views on Max-OT.

[Lastcrusade]

MAX OT does work but not as much as they say. I gained about 7 lbs out of it but after that I stopped growing. Max OT is effective for upper body , but not really on legs. What I'm doing now is i changed rep range of 8-10. I heard this rep rage gives more mass and shapes.

[quickups]

Max-OT is great for both strength and size. I've been using Max-OT principles for some time now. I think one of the keys to Max-OT nutrition wise is getting enough protein.

I know when I first tried Max-OT when I was starting out I got some nice strength gains but negligible size gains, it wasn't until I gave it another shot a few years later down road with a better more protein rich diet that I noticed solid muscle gains.

Remember, with Max-OT you're primarily going after sarcomere hypertrophy, not sarcoplasmic as with many of the higher rep, higher volume routines. So the old standard 1 gram of protein / lbs of bw will barely cut it, shoot for at least 1.5 with Max-OT

Check out my journal for more info about my views on Max-OT.

Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.

Do I really need to stick with the nutrional ratios that they have in the ebook?

It says that I should consume around 53% protein, 37%carbs, and 10% fat. Thats ALOT of protein.

Other question is that the 4-6 rep range. It says that it applies to every exercise but squats. It also said I could go a bit higher on the squats since it a very effective exercise but everything else is 4-6 reps. It is pretty intense around that rep and my form isn't the best when it is really heavy weight around the rep range? Anyone have comments on this?

Max-OT isn't as popular as other training method here (like rippetoe or 5x5), any suggestions as to why?

[power-builder]

Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.

Do I really need to stick with the nutrional ratios that they have in the ebook?

It says that I should consume around 53% protein, 37%carbs, and 10% fat. Thats ALOT of protein.

Other question is that the 4-6 rep range. It says that it applies to every exercise but squats. It also said I could go a bit higher on the squats since it a very effective exercise but everything else is 4-6 reps. It is pretty intense around that rep and my form isn't the best when it is really heavy weight around the rep range? Anyone have comments on this?

Max-OT isn't as popular as other training method here (like rippetoe or 5x5), any suggestions as to why?

I stick to a 40/40/20 nutritional split. That is still a lot of protein, but it is manageable if you buy your whey in bulk form.

If your form isn't best at the rep range then I suggest you start with a few weeks of 6-8 reps before you go down into the 4-6 rep range. Remember, with Max-OT you want to use loose form, but not to the point where you risk injury.

Max-OT isn't as popular because it is an old program. I remember when I used to come on this board waaay back around 2002 the program was one of the most popular programs on the board.
Now with rippetoes and the latest incarnation of the 5x5 people aren't that aware of the other programs out there, especially since a great majority of posters here are newbies and all the see is these two programs flooding this board.

Not to mention the many beginners on here who after a cycle of rippetoes or the 5x5 automatically become training gurus and condemn the use of any type of once a week bodypart split, deeming it ineffective, even incapable of producing gains.

[supernovice]

I havn't tried Max-OT weight training but Max-OT cardio is insane!!! Dude, seriously, do Max-OT cardio for like 3-4 months I swear you can bang for HOURS in bed, SERIOUSLY!!!

& what about PRRS training? This training has been working AWESOME for me

[power-builder]

I havn't tried Max-OT weight training but Max-OT cardio is insane!!! Dude, seriously, do Max-OT cardio for like 3-4 months I swear you can bang for HOURS in bed, SERIOUSLY!!!

I heard Max-OT cardio gives you great muscle endurance, but I didn't know that it would be that effective on the forearm muscles as well.

Eitherway, I prefer 30-50 min interval cardio as apposed to Max-OT's all out 16minute effort.

[quickups]

I stick to a 40/40/20 nutritional split. That is still a lot of protein, but it is manageable if you buy your whey in bulk form.

If your form isn't best at the rep range then I suggest you start with a few weeks of 6-8 reps before you go down into the 4-6 rep range. Remember, with Max-OT you want to use loose form, but not to the point where you risk injury.

Max-OT isn't as popular because it is an old program. I remember when I used to come on this board waaay back around 2002 the program was one of the most popular programs on the board.
Now with rippetoes and the latest incarnation of the 5x5 people aren't that aware of the other programs out there, especially since a great majority of posters here are newbies and all the see is these two programs flooding this board.

Not to mention the many beginners on here who after a cycle of rippetoes or the 5x5 automatically become training gurus and condemn the use of any type of once a week bodypart split, deeming it ineffective, even incapable of producing gains.

I am doing the 6 month plan of training where I workout 5 days a week. Is it overtraining or not? In my opinion it probably isn't because it isn't using the same major muscles back to back. I just wanted your thoughts on this.

Max-OT is amazing. I've gained a net 34lbs on with the Max-OT principles, without any BF % change.

I don't know what the other poster said about max-ot not working for legs...because that's just bs. Muscles are muscles...

That is alot of muscle! Props to you! How long did it take you to gain that much weight? Were you doing 3 day split or 5 day split? How was your nutrional intake?

[power-builder]

As far as muscle gains go. I trained a buddy of mine little over year ago using Max-OT.

He wasn't a pure newbie, as he had been training on his own for a while, but at 6'2 and 190-195 he was lacking size. In 5 months and a strict diet he ended up at 225-230lbs with minimal gains in body fat. Excellent gains to say the least. I myself went from 155-198 pre and post Max-OT, but that took a quite a bit longer.


Now as far as workouts go, check my journal I wrote a post there about Max-OT splits. If you're going to train 5 days a week, keep it brief to under 30min each session. Also, space out your bodyparts appropriately. Eventually you'll need to move on to a more spaced out split as your strength increases. When that happens will depend on how well you recover.

[power-builder]

34+ lbs took me a year. I trained on a 5 day split and ate like a horse. (with a clean diet, noting the glycemic index and AST's advice very strictly)

That is some serious progress. How many years of training did you have under your belt prior to Max-OT?

[quickups]

As far as muscle gains go. I trained a buddy of mine little over year ago using Max-OT.

He wasn't a pure newbie, as he had been training on his own for a while, but at 6'2 and 190-195 he was lacking size. In 5 months and a strict diet he ended up at 225-230lbs with minimal gains in body fat. Excellent gains to say the least. I myself went from 155-198 pre and post Max-OT, but that took a quite a bit longer.


Now as far as workouts go, check my journal I wrote a post there about Max-OT splits. If you're going to train 5 days a week, keep it brief to under 30min each session. Also, space out your bodyparts appropriately. Eventually you'll need to move on to a more spaced out split as your strength increases. When that happens will depend on how well you recover.

I noticed in your journal that you deload whenever you hit a stall? Am I suppose to do this too whenever I hit a plateau or just take a week off?

[power-builder]

I noticed in your journal that you deload whenever you hit a stall? Am I suppose to do this too whenever I hit a plateau or just take a week off?

That's something new I'm trying out, more frequent deloads. Normally with Max-OT you train 8 weeks, and take a week off.

I'm going to deload every 3-4 weeks or so BEFORE things start slowing down so I can hopefully maintain a fairly steady rate of progress. Although I could most likely hit the 8 week mark without a significant plateau, I would probably need to take more than 1 week off to fully recover and be ready to as DC'ers say "blast" again.

You can most likely make steady progress for the entire 8 weeks without having to worry about deloading. However once you get stronger you will find you start taking longer to recover you'll notice that you won't be able to push as hard for as many weeks in a row and still make continuous progress.

If you do hit a plateau before the 8 weeks are up, say week4, most likely you just need to adjust your training or diet. With the proper diet and exercise/split set up you should be adding weight each workout, each week for the full 8 weeks.

Let me know if you have any other questions about Max-OT.

[quickups]

That's something new I'm trying out, more frequent deloads. Normally with Max-OT you train 8 weeks, and take a week off.

I'm going to deload every 3-4 weeks or so BEFORE things start slowing down so I can hopefully maintain a fairly steady rate of progress. Although I could most likely hit the 8 week mark without a significant plateau, I would probably need to take more than 1 week off to fully recover and be ready to as DC'ers say "blast" again.

You can most likely make steady progress for the entire 8 weeks without having to worry about deloading. However once you get stronger you will find you start taking longer to recover you'll notice that you won't be able to push as hard for as many weeks in a row and still make continuous progress.

If you do hit a plateau before the 8 weeks are up, say week4, most likely you just need to adjust your training or diet. With the proper diet and exercise/split set up you should be adding weight each workout, each week for the full 8 weeks.

Let me know if you have any other questions about Max-OT.

I've tried to keep the workout under 40 minutes but its not that easy. Some people maybe using the bench or rack that I want so I have to wait for a couple of minutes. I finished the workout in one hour.

Today, I did my chest/forearm Max-OT workout and heavy weights for the forearms isn't good for me. It started to hurt the minute I did heavy weights.

By the way, While you and your friend were doing Max-OT were you guys using any supplements? Currently I am only taking multivitamin and whey protein but I am planning to add creatine ethyl ester.

Is there an obligatory increase in all the lifts every week? Or is it you increase the weight when the certain weight that you do passes the 6 rep range? This wasn't clarified in the MAX-OT ebook, I don't think.

[power-builder]

If you're going to workout 1 hour on a 5 day split you will burn out, or make little progress. When I did a 5 day split I did no more than 30min a day with no more than 5-7 work sets a session.

Show me the split you are using, exercises and all, I'll show you how you can make it better.

All we use are the basics, Whey, Casein, Multi, Flax, Gatorade+Whey shakes during training.

There is no obligatory weight increase, but you should set goals each workout. 5lbs on bigger movements, 2.5lbs on smaller ones. If you set up your split right, and you keep you training brief so that you always feel "fresh" for each training session (or as close to fresh as you can) you will make steady progress and making small jumps on your exercises each session will not be a problem.

By "fresh" I mean that you shouldn't feel 'drained' on say Thursday or Friday before your session, each day should feel like a Monday or as close to it as possible. When I do a 5 day split I go no more than 25min per session, 2 work sets per exercise, 5 worksets major muscles, 3 on minor muscles, no more than 2 work sets per exercise.

Another advantage to no more than 2 work sets per exercise is that it is much easier to progress on an exercise and add 5lbs to 2 sets of 6, instead of 3 sets. Also, because you would performed 1 less work set and have conserved strength, it will allow you to make better progress on successive exercises. I've also read a long time ago on the HST forums that studies have shows that the majority of microtrauma is created on the first several sets of an exercise, and even then there is a point of diminishing return. For example, I don't know the exact numbers, say on the first set you create microtrauma in 30% of the muscle's fiber on the first set, on the second set you create 20% more microtrauma and 10% more on the third [these are random number to illustrate my example, and the jist of what I read]. So you're basically better off saving your energy and putting it into the first set of another exercise than doing a third work set.

Now, if you're going to do 2 work sets per movement I suggest your movements are somewhat related so that there is strength carryover from one exercise to the next. If you're doing a chest workout with 3 exercises, have at least 2 similar movements, such as Incline Barbel Bench and Incline DB Bench. If you just did 2 work sets of Incline Barbel Bench and did 2 sets each of some machine movements you may find that 2 sets may not be enough to "master the movement" or strengthen your stabilizing muscles to a point where you can make steady progress. The same goes for Squatting movements. For back you don't really have to worry because there's not much stabilizing and balancing involved.

That's the main thing I found you need to look out for when doing 2 work sets.

[quickups]

If you're going to workout 1 hour on a 5 day split you will burn out, or make little progress. When I did a 5 day split I did no more than 30min a day with no more than 5-7 work sets a session.

Show me the split you are using, exercises and all, I'll show you how you can make it better.

All we use are the basics, Whey, Casein, Multi, Flax, Gatorade+Whey shakes during training.

There is no obligatory weight increase, but you should set goals each workout. 5lbs on bigger movements, 2.5lbs on smaller ones. If you set up your split right, and you keep you training brief so that you always feel "fresh" for each training session (or as close to fresh as you can) you will make steady progress and making small jumps on your exercises each session will not be a problem.

By "fresh" I mean that you shouldn't feel 'drained' on say Thursday or Friday before your session, each day should feel like a Monday or as close to it as possible. When I do a 5 day split I go no more than 25min per session, 2 work sets per exercise, 5 worksets major muscles, 3 on minor muscles, no more than 2 work sets per exercise.

Another advantage to no more than 2 work sets per exercise is that it is much easier to progress on an exercise and add 5lbs to 2 sets of 6, instead of 3 sets. Also, because you would performed 1 less work set and have conserved strength, it will allow you to make better progress on successive exercises. I've also read a long time ago on the HST forums that studies have shows that the majority of microtrauma is created on the first several sets of an exercise, and even then there is a point of diminishing return. For example, I don't know the exact numbers, say on the first set you create microtrauma in 30% of the muscle's fiber on the first set, on the second set you create 20% more microtrauma and 10% more on the third [these are random number to illustrate my example, and the jist of what I read]. So you're basically better off saving your energy and putting it into the first set of another exercise than doing a third work set.

Now, if you're going to do 2 work sets per movement I suggest your movements are somewhat related so that there is strength carryover from one exercise to the next. If you're doing a chest workout with 3 exercises, have at least 2 similar movements, such as Incline Barbel Bench and Incline DB Bench. If you just did 2 work sets of Incline Barbel Bench and did 2 sets each of some machine movements you may find that 2 sets may not be enough to "master the movement" or strengthen your stabilizing muscles to a point where you can make steady progress. The same goes for Squatting movements. For back you don't really have to worry because there's not much stabilizing and balancing involved.

That's the main thing I found you need to look out for when doing 2 work sets.

Well it is an hour but I have figured out that how much work I do is equal to that of a 3 day split. The only difference is that the exercises and the muscle being trained are spread out even more. I workout with a partner that I am trying to get in shape that is why I probably take longer than an hour.

Here is the Max-OT 6 month plan of attack that is 5 days a week.

Monday:
Squats: 3 sets
Leg Press: 2 sets
Stiff Leg Deadlift: 2
Standing Calf: 3 sets 6-8 reps
Seated Calf: 2 sets 6-8 reps

Tuesday:
Incline Bench Press: 3 sets
Barbell Bench Press 3 sets
Decline Bench Press: 1 sets
Barbell Wrist Curls: 2 sets
Dumbell Wrist Curls: 2 sets

Wednesday:
Barbell Rows: 2 sets
Close Grip V pulldowns: 2 sets
Pull Ups: 2 sets
Cable Rows: 1 set
Deadlift: 2 sets
Barbell Shrug: 1 set

Thursday:
Rotating Dumbell Press: 3 sets
Military Press: 2 sets
Dumbell Side Laterals: 2 sets
Lying Tricep Press: 2 sets
Tricep Cable Press Downs: 2 sets
Seated Overhead Tricep Press: 1 set

Friday:
Straight Bar Curls: 2 sets
Dumbell Hammer Curls: 2 sets
Barbell Curls: 1 set
Leg lifts: 2 set 12-15 reps
Weighted Crunches: 2 sets 8-10 reps

All Exercises are 4-6 reps unless otherwise stated.

[power-builder]

Here's what I would do to 'optimize' that split:

Monday:
Squats: 3 sets
Leg Press: 2 sets
Stiff Leg Deadlift: 2 sets


Tuesday:
Incline Bench Press: 2 sets
Flat DB Bench Press 2 sets
Decline Bench Press: 2 sets
Leg lifts: 2 set 12-15 reps
Weighted Crunches: 2 sets 8-10 reps *ab work should be done in 5min*

Wednesday:
Barbell Rows: 2 sets
Pull Ups: 2 sets
Cable Rows: 2 set
BB wrist curls: 2 sets *wrist curls optional*

Thursday:
Rotating Dumbell Press: 3 sets
Dumbell Side Laterals: 2 sets
Lying Tricep Press: 2 sets
Tricep Cable Press Downs: 2 sets
Seated Overhead Tricep Press: 1 set

Friday:
Straight Bar Curls: 2 sets
Alaternating DB Curls: 2 sets
Preacher Curls: 1 set
Standing Calf: 3 sets 6-8 reps
Seated Calf: 2 sets 6-8 reps


In my view that would be optimal, and how I foresee you would make the best progress. However eventually you'll need to do something like:
chest/back/legs/shoulders/arms
This way you space out chest further from shoulders, and bis further from back. Like I said before, when you get stronger, you'll take longer to recover, and you may find that your shoulders are recovering in time for you shoulder workout from chest pressing, and your bis aren't recovering from their indirect hit from back work for their workout.

Let me know if you have questions.

[quickups]

Well I did the wednesday routine today, I wasn't even exhausted like monday or tuesday where i did legs on monday and chest on tuesday. And on those days I did at least 10 sets for each of those body parts. I didn't feel tired or exhausted after doing what you suggested to do on wednesday but my muscles are still very sore from monday and tuesday.

When I was on rippetoe I wasn't really exhausted everytime I worked out but that was doing fully body workouts 3 days a week. I'm not sure if Max-OT training style is suppose to make you exhausted everytime you go to the gym or not.

The max-ot principle says 6-9 heavy sets per muscle group but on monday and tuesday they are 11 sets.

By the way, I am 150 lbs 5'6'' and 20 years old. I have been stuck with this weight since fall of '06!! I went up to 160 but I noticed I was getting fatter so for one month I minimized weight training(bad idea) and did more cardio. I lost 10 lbs and lost some strength too.Before Max-OT I was on rippetoe and my strength levels went up a bit and after that it stalled.

Now I am trying to eat more protein since last time I was on rippetoe my diet consisted of mainly carbs and did not really watch what I ate.

I think my diet is the problem here. Eating too many carbs and not enough protein is what I think is the problem since I am not gaining weight. When I did gain weight it was mostly fat and very little muscle.

I really hope the ratio of 40/40/20 and adding creatine as a supplement will help.

[power-builder]

Well I did the wednesday routine today, I wasn't even exhausted like monday or tuesday where i did legs on monday and chest on tuesday. And on those days I did at least 10 sets for each of those body parts. I didn't feel tired or exhausted after doing what you suggested to do on wednesday but my muscles are still very sore from monday and tuesday.

When I was on rippetoe I wasn't really exhausted everytime I worked out but that was doing fully body workouts 3 days a week. I'm not sure if Max-OT training style is suppose to make you exhausted everytime you go to the gym or not.

The max-ot principle says 6-9 heavy sets per muscle group but on monday and tuesday they are 11 sets.

The key to making progress on a 5 day split is doing just enough to stimulate growth and strength gains, but not so much that you feel 'blasted'. Remember the more you do, the more it will take for you muscles and CNS to recover, so you want to do just enough to gain but also little enough so that your CNS is as close to being ready to go again as it can be for the next workout.

Remember, feeling exhausted is not the goal of training, especially not Max-OT style. Keep a log book, and keep track of all your exercises, weight, sets and reps. Your log book will be the primary indicator of how you are doing. If you are making progress in the weights and eating right, you WILL make progress on the scale and see it in the mirror as well.

Max-OT wants you doing 6-9 heavy sets per larger muscle groups. However like I said before more isn't necessarily better. Its always better to start off on the low end, if you think you can make better progress by adding a set or two, then do it, but monitor your strength gains to make sure the extra work is helping. The amount of sets you do also depends on how strong you are and how well you recruit fibers (neuromuscular efficiency). The stronger you are the more fibers you can recruit, the less sets you will need.


My last major suggestion is to go out to walmart and buy a food scale with a built it database. Weight your food, punch in the code and boom, it will tell you how much protein, carbs, fat, sodium, cholesterol... A definite must have if you want a proper diet of any kind. After a while you will be able to 'eyeball' your servings, so its not like you'll be using it 24/7. Also, look into 'nutrient timing' by John Ivy and Robert Portman. One of the best books on nutrition that I found. There are also good articles here.

Finally buy your protein in bulk form. I'll pm you a good place. That way you can have all the shakes you want for cheap and get in the protein you need. If you want to grow and stay lean, you need to eat often, I'll usually have a shake as soon as wake up, have a meal within an hour, and then have a shake 2.5 hours after every meal, and a meal 1.5 hours after every shake till I go to bed.

[quickups]

Thanks for the info!

I will do what you have suggested which is the 2 sets per exercise and I will try to find the food scale.

I will work with the 2 sets per exercise for about a month and see if I make any progress in regards to strength and muscle gains. I will adjust accordingly, if needed.

I am eating more protein now that I have before, so I'm expecting to see more muscular gains(hopefully) along with the right amount of carbs and fats.

Although I haven't received the PM, thank you in advance. I thought bb.com had the cheapeast protein in bulk form..

[nightdragon]

Yes great results