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  1. #1
    Registered User acruz7439's Avatar
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    Fierce 5 - Can't Do Much Progress on Overhead Press

    From February (guessing because I lost my phone with my first recorded sessions) to September (currently recorded), my weight progress is:

    Squat: 85lbs --> 185lbs
    Bench: 65lbs --> 145lbs
    Pendlay Row: 65lbs --> 125lbs
    Face Pull: 10lbs --> 95lbs
    Triceps: 10lbs --> 95lbs
    Calf Raises: 30lbs --> 120lbs

    Front Squat: 55lbs --> 170lbs
    Overhead: 55lbs --> 110lbs
    Romanian Deadlift: 65lbs --> 165lbs
    Lat: 10lbs --> 110lbs
    Abs (Crunches): 5lbs --> 65lbs
    Biceps: 5lbs --> 22.5lbs

    I realized from my above progress that I haven't gained much strength in the overhead press nor Romanian deadlift. I eventually asked a trainer out in my gym about the issue and after they took a look at my Fierce 5 program I was told I could either do two things:

    - Maintain my strength for the majority of the exercises and focus on lifting the amount of weight primarily on my overhead press and deadlift.
    - Or reduce the amount of warm up sets (or reps? I forgot which one it was) before doing my working ones.

    This is what my current warm ups look with my weights:

    Squat - 2x5 (No Bar), 1x5 (70 lbs), 1x3 (110 lbs), 1x2 (145 lbs), 3x5 (185 lbs)
    Bench Press - 2x5 (No Bar), 1x5 (70 lbs), 1x3 (100 lbs), 1x2 (130 lbs), 3x5 (145 lbs)
    Pendlay - 2x5 (50 lbs), 1x3 (85 lbs), 1x2 (110 lbs), 3x8 (125 lbs)
    No Warm Ups: Face Pull, Tricep, Calf Raises

    Front Squat - 2x5 (No Bar), 1x5 (65 lbs), 1x3 (100 lbs), 1x2 (135 lbs), 3x5 (170 lbs)
    Overhead Press - 2x5 (No Bar), 1x5 (60 lbs), 1x3 (70 lbs), 1x2 (90 lbs), 3x5 (110 lbs)
    Romanian Deadlift - 2x5 (65 lbs), 1x3 (95 lbs), 1x2 (140 lbs), 3x8 (165 lbs)
    Lat: 1x10 (35 lbs), 1x5 (45 lbs), 1x3(55 lbs), 1x2(65 lbs), 3x10 (110 lbs)
    No Warm Ups: Abs, Biceps

    I honestly don't know what to change or remove on my program. Any advice is appreciated.

    Edit: I remember something about her mentioning I was doing more than 20 reps and it wasn't necessary for me to do so?
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  2. #2
    Registered User paulinkansas's Avatar
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    Maybe cut back a set or two of OHP and add a set or two of Arnold presses or dumb bell OHP. I'm not an expert at weightlifting by any means.
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  3. #3
    Registered User acruz7439's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by paulinkansas View Post
    Maybe cut back a set or two of OHP and add a set or two of Arnold presses or dumb bell OHP. I'm not an expert at weightlifting by any means.
    I'll definitely see if that helps out.

    I should also mention that I used warmupreps.com to calculate my warm up reps. So I don't know if they're perfect weight, sets, or reps.
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  4. #4
    Registered User coachcalande's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by acruz7439 View Post
    From February (guessing because I lost my phone with my first recorded sessions) to September (currently recorded), my weight progress is:

    Squat: 85lbs --> 185lbs
    Bench: 65lbs --> 145lbs
    Pendlay Row: 65lbs --> 125lbs
    Face Pull: 10lbs --> 95lbs
    Triceps: 10lbs --> 95lbs
    Calf Raises: 30lbs --> 120lbs

    Front Squat: 55lbs --> 170lbs
    Overhead: 55lbs --> 110lbs
    Romanian Deadlift: 65lbs --> 165lbs
    Lat: 10lbs --> 110lbs
    Abs (Crunches): 5lbs --> 65lbs
    Biceps: 5lbs --> 22.5lbs

    I realized from my above progress that I haven't gained much strength in the overhead press nor Romanian deadlift. I eventually asked a trainer out in my gym about the issue and after they took a look at my Fierce 5 program I was told I could either do two things:

    - Maintain my strength for the majority of the exercises and focus on lifting the amount of weight primarily on my overhead press and deadlift.
    - Or reduce the amount of warm up sets (or reps? I forgot which one it was) before doing my working ones.

    This is what my current warm ups look with my weights:

    Squat - 2x5 (No Bar), 1x5 (70 lbs), 1x3 (110 lbs), 1x2 (145 lbs), 3x5 (185 lbs)
    Bench Press - 2x5 (No Bar), 1x5 (70 lbs), 1x3 (100 lbs), 1x2 (130 lbs), 3x5 (145 lbs)
    Pendlay - 2x5 (50 lbs), 1x3 (85 lbs), 1x2 (110 lbs), 3x8 (125 lbs)
    No Warm Ups: Face Pull, Tricep, Calf Raises

    Front Squat - 2x5 (No Bar), 1x5 (65 lbs), 1x3 (100 lbs), 1x2 (135 lbs), 3x5 (170 lbs)
    Overhead Press - 2x5 (No Bar), 1x5 (60 lbs), 1x3 (70 lbs), 1x2 (90 lbs), 3x5 (110 lbs)
    Romanian Deadlift - 2x5 (65 lbs), 1x3 (95 lbs), 1x2 (140 lbs), 3x8 (165 lbs)
    Lat: 1x10 (35 lbs), 1x5 (45 lbs), 1x3(55 lbs), 1x2(65 lbs), 3x10 (110 lbs)
    No Warm Ups: Abs, Biceps

    I honestly don't know what to change or remove on my program. Any advice is appreciated.

    Edit: I remember something about her mentioning I was doing more than 20 reps and it wasn't necessary for me to do so?
    Looks 100% fine to me. You have doubled your training weight and it’s in a reasonable proportion to your bench.

    Overhead press is primarily working smaller muscles in the delts and tris.
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

    Old Guy deadlifting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zMrim-0Dks
    bench press https://youtu.be/GaRzfueJVJQ

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  5. #5
    Registered User paulinkansas's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    Overhead press is primarily working smaller muscles in the delts and tris.
    I agree with coach gatorade. My slowest gains are with OHP.
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  6. #6
    Registered User acruz7439's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    Looks 100% fine to me. You have doubled your training weight and it’s in a reasonable proportion to your bench.

    Overhead press is primarily working smaller muscles in the delts and tris.
    Thank you for the feedback!

    How does my deadlift look? I feel like a deadlift in this program should've been a lot higher compared to the other exercises.
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  7. #7
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    Originally Posted by acruz7439 View Post
    Thank you for the feedback!

    How does my deadlift look? I feel like a deadlift in this program should've been a lot higher compared to the other exercises.
    Romanian deadlifts are not something I have ever done. Regular deadlifts yes…

    Are you doing regular deadlifts?
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

    Old Guy deadlifting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zMrim-0Dks
    bench press https://youtu.be/GaRzfueJVJQ

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  8. #8
    Registered User acruz7439's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    Romanian deadlifts are not something I have ever done. Regular deadlifts yes…

    Are you doing regular deadlifts?
    Nope, only Romanian ones. Unless the program calls for regular deadlifts.

    But until then, only romain ones.
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  9. #9
    Registered User coachcalande's Avatar
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    If the time comes, and you choose to start traditional deadlifts, you will see that your deadlifts are a bigger lift than your squats *if squats are done deep and straps are used for deadlifts preventing lost grip…*

    Deadlifts are the ultimate caveman strength test.
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

    Old Guy deadlifting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zMrim-0Dks
    bench press https://youtu.be/GaRzfueJVJQ

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  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    ... *if squats are done deep and straps are used for deadlifts preventing lost grip…*

    Deadlifts are the ultimate caveman strength test.
    Provided you're not using straps.
    Bench: 320
    Squat: 375
    Deadlift: 495

    "... But always, there remained, the discipline of steel!"
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    Registered User coachcalande's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Provided you're not using straps.

    I admit I train with straps so I can overload the posterior chain no matter what my grip strength is.
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

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    bench press https://youtu.be/GaRzfueJVJQ

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  12. #12
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    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    I admit I train with straps so I can overload the posterior chain no matter what my grip strength is.
    Ever considered losing the straps and seeing how much the grip strength catches up? You are stronger than me and have much more experience overall, so it is only a thought, but grip was my bottleneck originally, but quickly caught up. I pulled five with no straps or chalk a few months ago, but had trouble holding three when I was at that point on the way up. I think if I used straps from the get go my grip would never have strengthened to the point where it's not the limiting factor.
    Bench: 320
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  13. #13
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Ever considered losing the straps and seeing how much the grip strength catches up? You are stronger than me and have much more experience overall, so it is only a thought, but grip was my bottleneck originally, but quickly caught up. I pulled five with no straps or chalk a few months ago, but had trouble holding three when I was at that point on the way up. I think if I used straps from the get go my grip would never have strengthened to the point where it's not the limiting factor.

    I haven’t- I actually use straps for
    All rows, pulldowns, chins, upright rows…just dont want grip strength to hold anything back- keep in mind I probably trained for 15 years without them!
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

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  14. #14
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    I’d cut back on OHP for a while. Focus on training the shoulder with DBs in a higher range of 12-20 reps. Do plate front raises, lateral raises (not those floppy things with DBs that are too heavy to pause at the top) Build the delts, not just the OHP. Then come back to it in about a month and see where you are at.

    RDLs are infinitely superior to deadlifts for building muscle for a variety of reasons.
    As are good mornings. That said, they aren’t meant to be max weight exercises. They are meant to focus on form in a moderate rep to maximally lengthen the glutes and hamstrings in a way no pull from the floor can.

    So instead of just adding more weight, add more reps. The glutes and erectors are mostly slow twitch muscles anyway, hamstrings are a pretty even mix. When I program them, it is for reps in 8-15 range. Once firm breaks down, stop. Because the low back will be the first to give.

    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post

    Deadlifts are the ultimate caveman strength test.
    That would be Atlas stones or Husafell carries.
    Last edited by BeginnerGainz; 09-16-2021 at 12:09 PM.
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    I’d cut back on OHP for a while. Focus on training the shoulder with DBs in a higher range of 12-20 reps. Do plate front raises, lateral raises (not those floppy things with DBs that are too heavy to pause at the top) Build the delts, not just the OHP. Then come back to it in about a month and see where you are at.

    RDLs are infinitely superior to deadlifts for building muscle for a variety of reasons.
    As are good mornings. That said, they aren’t meant to be max weight exercises. They are meant to focus on form in a moderate rep to maximally lengthen the glutes and hamstrings in a way no pull from the floor can.

    So instead of just adding more weight, add more reps. The glutes and erectors are mostly slow twitch muscles anyway, hamstrings are a pretty even mix. When I program them, it is for reps in 8-15 range. Once firm breaks down, stop. Because the low back will be the first to give.



    That would be Atlas stones or Husafell carries.

    If only I had some
    Atlas stones
    😂
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

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    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    If only I had some
    Atlas stones
    Get a husafell box then lol

    https://www.titan.fitness/strongman/...waAgtmEALw_wcB

    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    I haven’t- I actually use straps for
    All rows, pulldowns, chins, upright rows…just dont want grip strength to hold anything back- keep in mind I probably trained for 15 years without them!
    I use straps for all my pulling exercises for working sets only, except deadlifts. One it gets over 375 I’ll switch to a mixed grip. Less than that I’m good overhand. Never liked hook grip or chalk. Straps on conventional deadlifts throws off my setup, trap bar I’ll throw them on at 405. I got a cheap set off Amazon but they hold up to a set of 500 trap bar deads pretty well so it was a good investment.
    Last edited by BeginnerGainz; 09-16-2021 at 12:27 PM.
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    We don't have to get into it, but I'm just saying...

    Take a guy that can deadlift impressively, he'll swiftly RDL and GM impressively if he can't already. Take a guy that can RDL and GM impressively, it'll take a long time to deadlift impressively if he can't already.

    The atlas stone is essentially a rounded deadlift except at the very top lol
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  18. #18
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    We don't have to get into it, but I'm just saying...

    Take a guy that can deadlift impressively, he'll swiftly RDL and GM impressively if he can't already. Take a guy that can RDL and GM impressively, it'll take a long time to deadlift impressively if he can't already.

    The atlas stone is essentially a rounded deadlift except at the very top lol
    You don’t think having a well developed posterior chain carries over to a deadlift?

    Because that is just false.

    There is a reason that F5 favors RDLs over conventional deadlifts.
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    You don’t think having a well developed posterior chain carries over to a deadlift?

    Because that is just false.

    There is a reason that F5 favors RDLs over conventional deadlifts.

    I figured it was for hams
    More
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    You don’t think having a well developed posterior chain carries over to a deadlift?

    Because that is just false.

    There is a reason that F5 favors RDLs over conventional deadlifts.
    The deadlift trains and develops the entire posterior chain massively. Fierce Five is a novice program and is aimed more at budgeting fatigue for the sake of full-body development everywhere from a relatively untrained starting point, if I understand it right from having read it. No one in this conversation is a novice.

    Yes, it would have carryover but it is not infinitely superior, as you say. The compound is far more than the sum of its isolations.
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    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    I figured it was for hams
    More
    Here is Paul Carter to explain it better than I ever could.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CTiA-b8r...dium=copy_link

    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    The deadlift trains and develops the entire posterior chain massively. Fierce Five is a novice program and is aimed more at budgeting fatigue for the sake of full-body development everywhere from a relatively untrained starting point, if I understand it right from having read it. No one in this conversation is a novice.

    Yes, it would have carryover but it is not infinitely superior, as you say. The compound is far more than the sum of its isolations.
    Depends on what part of the posterior chain you are referring to. For a novice, it is fine for glutes/hams/ but lacks in the back department, unless your form is chit and you use the erectors as a prime mover vs a dynamic stabilizer.

    Again, Paul Carter explains what I mean.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CTQRaidr...dium=copy_link
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    Here is Paul Carter to explain it better than I ever could.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CTiA-b8r...dium=copy_link

    Hes talking about stiff legged deadlift though,not a power lifters deadlift
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    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    Hes talking about stiff legged deadlift though,not a power lifters deadlift
    He is referring the difference between an RDL (which is more glute than ham) and a SLDL (which is more ham than glute)

    I really like that F5 includes it over conventionals for the increased ass/ham work you can get for less fatigue.

    Anyway…..

    Back to the OP:

    Keep plugging away at RDLs. Do more than 8 reps 10 to 12 should be your target.

    A form video might help, you may be exceeding your active range of motion and losing tension. It is a common mistake.

    As far as OHP, I’d put them aside for now, and focus on other shoulder work like raises (front, side, rear), dumbbell and machine presses/incline press if you absolutely have to press. Basically just give your shoulders a break.
    Last edited by BeginnerGainz; 09-16-2021 at 02:32 PM.
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    He is referring the difference between an RDL (which is more glute than ham) and a SLDL (which is more ham than glute)
    Correct…not talking about a powerlifting deadlift which is awesome.
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    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    Correct…not talking about a powerlifting deadlift which is awesome.
    I don't think he'll ever agree, personally.

    My form must such complete chit that it's done great for my back as well as my hams and glutes.
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    I don't think he'll ever agree, personally.

    My form must such complete chit that it's done great for my back as well as my hams and glutes.
    Meh -
    I was just saying that regular ol
    Powerlifting deadlift numbers would be much higher than RDL
    Or SLDL….by alot. Great brute strength lift .
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    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    Meh -
    I was just saying that regular ol
    Powerlifting deadlift numbers would be much higher than RDL
    Or SLDL….by alot. Great brute strength lift .
    According to him, it's only brute strength specific to that lift itself, which is an open disagreement that we have.
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    I don't think he'll ever agree, personally.

    My form must such complete chit that it's done great for my back as well as my hams and glutes.
    If you consistently have to uncurl your spine to complete the lift, then yes, your form is chit.

    Again, as pointed out in the link, the deadlift is not a “back” exercise no matter how badly people want it to be.

    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    Correct…not talking about a powerlifting deadlift which is awesome.
    I agree but keep it perspective. I deadlift a few times a year because it is a fun lift to do.

    Originally Posted by coachcalande View Post
    Meh -
    I was just saying that regular ol
    Powerlifting deadlift numbers would be much higher than RDL
    Or SLDL….by alot. Great brute strength lift .
    There is a difference between using mechanically advantageous movements to move the most weight, and using mechanically disadvantageous movements to the target specific musculature, and to use said musculature to move the weight.

    There is no useful back work in the deadlift outside of low back. The back muscles don’t full lengthen outside the upper traps, and they never fully shorten. Done correctly any rhomboid work is going to be isometric (while useful, it pales in comparison to good eccentric/concentric work). An exception to this rule would be a Dorian deadlift.
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    That’s a pretty good OHP man. I eventually gave up on that lift.
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    If you consistently have to uncurl your spine to complete the lift, then yes, your form is chit.

    Again, as pointed out in the link, the deadlift is not a “back” exercise no matter how badly people want it to be.
    Well, I could say the same if you only use a hex bar so that you don't have to involve it in the first place.

    Also, some elite powerlifters do have a mild curl in their spine posture. For all the criticism you give on here, have you even ever uploaded a lift yourself?
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