Firstly, calories coming purely from alcohol have very high "thermic effect" on par with protein and can't be directly stored as fat. That's not to say that alcohol calories are meaningless per se, but calories from alcohol don't carry quite the same weight in terms of fat gain as calories from carbs or fat.
Secondly, the "beer" and "wine" ancient cultures drank was FAR more diluted than what we have now. Almost everyone was essentially always very mildly buzzed in the same sense that everyone is essentially mildly on stimulants in most of today's world.
I think the mild obesogenic effects of increased calories from alcohol were mitigated by less processed food consumption, smaller portions, greater rates of smoking (reduces appetite) and, like you said, far higher levels of physical activity.
I'm very interested in the "middle century" of America, though. There was a fascinating turning point where people remained thin despite garbage diets and high alcohol consumption. That is, until they didn't...
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09-24-2021, 01:29 PM #61
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09-24-2021, 01:29 PM #62
True. Just imagine how buff pirates would have been of they weren’t drinking rum-water all day!
The thing is though with manual labor, you build the muscles you need and not necessarily for show. I have hired laborers before (i live 20 minutes from Tijuana) to dig ditches etc. Most of these guys look pretty normal, maybe slightly bigger/vascular forearms and shoulders.
They can literally dig holes all day long and you would be amazed how fast. Even if its 100 degrees out. Mr O would probably get tired out after his first hole and have to sit out while a laborer dug 5 more.2 time survivor of The Great Misc Outages of 2022
Survivor of PHP/API Outage of Feb 2023
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09-24-2021, 01:37 PM #63
My best friend's dad was a labourer and he had a skinny fat physique due to his mostly beer and Big Mac-based diet. His forearms were JJJAAAAAACKED though. I'm talking veins and bulging muscles like Popeye. He also had massive, meaty fists. Dude legitimately coulda competed in Mr. O if they just judged him from the elbow down LMAO
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09-24-2021, 01:39 PM #64
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09-24-2021, 02:17 PM #65
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09-28-2021, 01:52 AM #66
Again, I don't "want" this to be true. I am simply presenting the scientific proof on the subject and supplying links to the actual studies that were done. I don't want to have an opinion, but your argumentative nature has forced me into a position where I need to point to the studies that were linked to in my original post. And nowhere did I "claim that MPS is made up". Hmmm, weird argument there bud.
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09-28-2021, 02:01 AM #67
Great question. I can't even pretend to know the answer, but I do know that beer was manufactured as a main source of hydration in ancient times because their water sources were too polluted. Of course this has nothing to do with bodybuilding, because I think physique was the last thing on their minds and survival was #1. They survived potential extinction of the human race from diseased, contaminated water by boiling and distilling that water with fermented barley to produce beer. It's an interesting thing to ponder for sure haha
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09-28-2021, 02:17 AM #68
Agree 100%. Very well thought out response and I agree. Well, except for the diluted part. I get what you’re saying in that they didn’t have a reliable distillation process, but I think what they had was even stronger! No process to dilute it and organize it. I think their wine and beer was stronger But yeah Alcohol calories are weird... nobody really knows how they figure into your diet. They don't count as real calories because your body burns them first... but they count for something. I can attest to this because back in the day I would drink 10 beers a day. Technically that should be 14,000 extra calories a week added onto my nutrition plan... which equals to almost 4 pounds of fat per week. Didn't gain one ounce of extra fat. Even when I quit drinking for a while, didn't see any difference. So yeah, it's one of those things that are weird and unstudied.
Last edited by fatacad; 09-28-2021 at 02:30 AM.
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09-28-2021, 08:01 AM #69
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09-28-2021, 08:14 AM #70
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09-29-2021, 01:43 AM #71
What I meant by that was that MPS has shady study qualities at best. It's not something that is easily and reliably measured, we haven't advanced that far in the world of nutritional science yet to firmly argue what protein synthesis even is, yet alone claim all these things that destroy it. MPS is a fake term in general because it has very little evidence to back it up, and in context it was in reference to ad-sponsored articles worshipping MPS to sell their magic supplement. I never said MPS doesn't exist, I said it's a fake term. It's ok if the studies I linked to doesn't prove anything to you, just like it doesn't prove it is NOT true. To each their own, and that is the purpose of this post. Not to condone heavy drinking, but for people to make their own decisions. Show me the proof on the contrary and I'll shut up about it.
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09-29-2021, 01:50 AM #72
Normal eating and hit all my macros, just had 14,000 surplus calories a week in the form of "beer" and those calories had no effect. I consistently monitored my weight for a 1 year period and the supposed calories from the Lite Beer should have added up to a +50 lbs weight increase but did nothing. I even compared it to when I quit drinking alcohol for 18 months, no difference at all. Alcohol and beer calories are extremely weird.
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09-29-2021, 01:22 PM #73
We have lives to live. For us lifting is a part of that life. For some of us a couple (keyword - Couple) of cocktails are also a part of that life. Myself, I'm not going to let a couple of cocktails keep me from lifting the next day. Nor am I going to let lifting keep me from having a couple of cocktails that night.
if I was "competition caliber" and preparing for a competition I might feel differently.
But maybe not. I remember reading about some of the legends partying while working out. Seems they needed something different on occasion to get through the grind.
Or some of those high flying professional rasslers? Seems too many really were high. Yet, somehow, they looked amazing and, even more amazing - all the acrobatic theatrics they called wrestling.
Which brings me to a sidebar. "Runners High". Chemically it's similar to smoking pot. Now I'm hearing of lifters catching a little buzz to uh "enhance" their workouts.joe Henry
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09-29-2021, 02:13 PM #74
Right, it seems that most extremes are to be avoided.
I believe you, but unfortunately that's just not my experience at all. I know guys who are lean and seem to be able to drink without consequence. The safest route in my experience is just to count the calories anyway and know that it can't be worse than if they all did count.
Ironically I only seem to gain weight when I drink. I lose weight pretty quickly every time I stop drinking for a while, even if that's the only thing that I change.Bench: 350
Squat: 405
Deadlift: 505
"... But always, there remained, the discipline of steel!"
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10-07-2021, 01:58 AM #75
Yep, to each their own. Do what you feel works best. If you can't compete or lift the day after you drink heavy, then don't drink. For most of us casual lifters who like to go out it should be completely fine. But that's a personal thing, if someone has 20 vodka shots the night before and is trashed the next day, that's not what I'm talking about.
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10-07-2021, 02:00 AM #76
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10-07-2021, 08:29 PM #77
Jeff Nippard showed studies that lack of sleep for instance coupled with inadequate protein resulted in crazy dramatic muscle loss compared to people that consumed more protein with the same lack of sleep.
Dealing with alcohol is probably expensive for your body to manage as is focusing without sleep though isn't evidently a big deal if you're consistent with your protein and don't abuse your mishabits.
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10-07-2021, 08:34 PM #78
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10-08-2021, 01:34 AM #79
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10-08-2021, 06:49 AM #80
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10-08-2021, 09:10 AM #81
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10-08-2021, 01:57 PM #82
Damn! I actually have similar (but more minor) abnormalities with my pancreas and also liver function, and my drinking problems weren't nearly as bad as yours. I was, however, severely malnourished and nearly suffered multiple organ failure due to anorexia shortly before some of my hardest drinking days tho. It's amazing the amount of damage even relatively "young" people like us can have from alcohol. I used to think long-term damage of any kind from alcohol wouldn't be remotely noticeable until 50+. I was obviously quite wrong.
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