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  1. #61
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    One thing I'm relatively interested in, is putting this question in a historical context. Alcohol was a ubiquitous part of the pre-modern world in many societies, and served a useful function as a sanitizing agent, often making hydration itself feasible in the first place, as sources of water were not always readily potable.

    This same scenario coincided with a world pretty much exclusively powered by muscle: draught animals and human labor (and I guess some wind/water-powered machinery occasionally, but that was the exception). So obviously, society's survival entailed and required a high level of activity from its able-bodied members.

    What did this mean for the physiques of people who worked arduously every day and also potentially drank copiously, whether out of necessity or cultural norm?

    Obesity hasn't been a problem (or even a stigma, for that matter) until well into modern times, and life expectancy figures tend to omit infant mortality and death from accidents, which both reduce the numbers considerably, making the long-term health implications of this scenario harder to discern.
    Firstly, calories coming purely from alcohol have very high "thermic effect" on par with protein and can't be directly stored as fat. That's not to say that alcohol calories are meaningless per se, but calories from alcohol don't carry quite the same weight in terms of fat gain as calories from carbs or fat.

    Secondly, the "beer" and "wine" ancient cultures drank was FAR more diluted than what we have now. Almost everyone was essentially always very mildly buzzed in the same sense that everyone is essentially mildly on stimulants in most of today's world.

    I think the mild obesogenic effects of increased calories from alcohol were mitigated by less processed food consumption, smaller portions, greater rates of smoking (reduces appetite) and, like you said, far higher levels of physical activity.

    I'm very interested in the "middle century" of America, though. There was a fascinating turning point where people remained thin despite garbage diets and high alcohol consumption. That is, until they didn't...
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  2. #62
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    One thing I'm relatively interested in, is putting this question in a historical context. Alcohol was a ubiquitous part of the pre-modern world in many societies, and served a useful function as a sanitizing agent, often making hydration itself feasible in the first place, as sources of water were not always readily potable.

    This same scenario coincided with a world pretty much exclusively powered by muscle: draught animals and human labor (and I guess some wind/water-powered machinery occasionally, but that was the exception). So obviously, society's survival entailed and required a high level of activity from its able-bodied members.

    What did this mean for the physiques of people who worked arduously every day and also potentially drank copiously, whether out of necessity or cultural norm?

    Obesity hasn't been a problem (or even a stigma, for that matter) until well into modern times, and life expectancy figures tend to omit infant mortality and death from accidents, which both reduce the numbers considerably, making the long-term health implications of this scenario harder to discern.
    True. Just imagine how buff pirates would have been of they weren’t drinking rum-water all day!

    The thing is though with manual labor, you build the muscles you need and not necessarily for show. I have hired laborers before (i live 20 minutes from Tijuana) to dig ditches etc. Most of these guys look pretty normal, maybe slightly bigger/vascular forearms and shoulders.
    They can literally dig holes all day long and you would be amazed how fast. Even if its 100 degrees out. Mr O would probably get tired out after his first hole and have to sit out while a laborer dug 5 more.
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  3. #63
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    True. Just imagine how buff pirates would have been of they weren’t drinking rum-water all day!

    The thing is though with manual labor, you build the muscles you need and not necessarily for show. I have hired laborers before (i live 20 minutes from Tijuana) to dig ditches etc. Most of these guys look pretty normal, maybe slightly bigger/vascular forearms and shoulders.
    They can literally dig holes all day long and you would be amazed how fast. Even if its 100 degrees out. Mr O would probably get tired out after his first hole and have to sit out while a laborer dug 5 more.
    My best friend's dad was a labourer and he had a skinny fat physique due to his mostly beer and Big Mac-based diet. His forearms were JJJAAAAAACKED though. I'm talking veins and bulging muscles like Popeye. He also had massive, meaty fists. Dude legitimately coulda competed in Mr. O if they just judged him from the elbow down LMAO
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  4. #64
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    The thing is though with manual labor, you build the muscles you need and not necessarily for show. I have hired laborers before (i live 20 minutes from Tijuana) to dig ditches etc. Most of these guys look pretty normal, maybe slightly bigger/vascular forearms and shoulders.
    They can literally dig holes all day long and you would be amazed how fast. Even if its 100 degrees out. Mr O would probably get tired out after his first hole and have to sit out while a laborer dug 5 more.
    Last month I was at a house with 6 Mexican refinery laborers in it to collect rent. They were all going around the living room shirtless, just in their jeans, smoking and drinking, playing video games. I was the guy with the smallest arms in the room, and a 2XL shirt is snug around my arms.
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  5. #65
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    Originally Posted by paulinkansas View Post
    Last month I was at a house with 6 Mexican refinery laborers in it to collect rent. They were all going around the living room shirtless, just in their jeans, smoking and drinking, playing video games. I was the guy with the smallest arms in the room, and a 2XL shirt is snug around my arms.
    Just imagine if all that drinking didn’t “stunt their MPS”!!!!
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  6. #66
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    Originally Posted by XinXom View Post
    "So there's your study. Yes a whole 10 people which is what I hate about these. But 10 sure beats the 7 person study saying the opposite. It doesn't mention MPS because it's a fake term. It doesn't really exist. It's an idea invented by bodybuilders who constantly look for the most optimal way to build every ounce of muscle fiber. Your muscles will not grow at a faster rate if you do this magic thing or eat this magic protein"

    This is where you lose me. I get that you want this to be true but the research doesn't support this idea. Not only that but your study shows exactly what I would expect it to given my current knowledge of MPS so it doesn't prove anything at all to me. Personally I find it irrelevant as the other issues with drinking are far more severe than blunting a MPS activation which I already said is probably not important. However if you want to make a blanket statement MPS is fake and that alcohol has no impact your going to get people who take it as truth and then slam a bottle of scotch and a protein shake for their entire days calories and let me tell you based on the science we do have that's not so good even if they could magically not miss workouts or eat more when drunk and not track it etc. If a 3-4th activation are shown to have little effect then blunting one at the end of a day one day a week should result in no real change. You however acting like MPS is made up and that it has no impact is in no way support by any literature or science just your own bias. I'm not too surprised as you thinking 10 is much more statically significant than 7 makes me think you have never taken a college stats class or even know why that would be important. If your going to claim MPS is made up and doesn't matter your more than welcome to swap to omad and get drunk with your meal and let me know how it goes for you.
    Again, I don't "want" this to be true. I am simply presenting the scientific proof on the subject and supplying links to the actual studies that were done. I don't want to have an opinion, but your argumentative nature has forced me into a position where I need to point to the studies that were linked to in my original post. And nowhere did I "claim that MPS is made up". Hmmm, weird argument there bud.
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  7. #67
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    One thing I'm relatively interested in, is putting this question in a historical context. Alcohol was a ubiquitous part of the pre-modern world in many societies, and served a useful function as a sanitizing agent, often making hydration itself feasible in the first place, as sources of water were not always readily potable.

    This same scenario coincided with a world pretty much exclusively powered by muscle: draught animals and human labor (and I guess some wind/water-powered machinery occasionally, but that was the exception). So obviously, society's survival entailed and required a high level of activity from its able-bodied members.

    What did this mean for the physiques of people who worked arduously every day and also potentially drank copiously, whether out of necessity or cultural norm?

    Obesity hasn't been a problem (or even a stigma, for that matter) until well into modern times, and life expectancy figures tend to omit infant mortality and death from accidents, which both reduce the numbers considerably, making the long-term health implications of this scenario harder to discern.
    Great question. I can't even pretend to know the answer, but I do know that beer was manufactured as a main source of hydration in ancient times because their water sources were too polluted. Of course this has nothing to do with bodybuilding, because I think physique was the last thing on their minds and survival was #1. They survived potential extinction of the human race from diseased, contaminated water by boiling and distilling that water with fermented barley to produce beer. It's an interesting thing to ponder for sure haha
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  8. #68
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    Firstly, calories coming purely from alcohol have very high "thermic effect" on par with protein and can't be directly stored as fat. That's not to say that alcohol calories are meaningless per se, but calories from alcohol don't carry quite the same weight in terms of fat gain as calories from carbs or fat.

    Secondly, the "beer" and "wine" ancient cultures drank was FAR more diluted than what we have now. Almost everyone was essentially always very mildly buzzed in the same sense that everyone is essentially mildly on stimulants in most of today's world.

    I think the mild obesogenic effects of increased calories from alcohol were mitigated by less processed food consumption, smaller portions, greater rates of smoking (reduces appetite) and, like you said, far higher levels of physical activity.

    I'm very interested in the "middle century" of America, though. There was a fascinating turning point where people remained thin despite garbage diets and high alcohol consumption. That is, until they didn't...
    Agree 100%. Very well thought out response and I agree. Well, except for the diluted part. I get what you’re saying in that they didn’t have a reliable distillation process, but I think what they had was even stronger! No process to dilute it and organize it. I think their wine and beer was stronger But yeah Alcohol calories are weird... nobody really knows how they figure into your diet. They don't count as real calories because your body burns them first... but they count for something. I can attest to this because back in the day I would drink 10 beers a day. Technically that should be 14,000 extra calories a week added onto my nutrition plan... which equals to almost 4 pounds of fat per week. Didn't gain one ounce of extra fat. Even when I quit drinking for a while, didn't see any difference. So yeah, it's one of those things that are weird and unstudied.
    Last edited by fatacad; 09-28-2021 at 02:30 AM.
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    Originally Posted by fatacad View Post
    Again, I don't "want" this to be true. I am simply presenting the scientific proof on the subject and supplying links to the actual studies that were done. I don't want to have an opinion, but your argumentative nature has forced me into a position where I need to point to the studies that were linked to in my original post. And nowhere did I "claim that MPS is made up". Hmmm, weird argument there bud.
    Well then elaborate what did you mean by and I quote ". It doesn't mention MPS because it's a fake term". No it didn't measure MPS because that's not the kind of study it was. I read your study it proved nothing to me and is exactly what I would expect given my current knowledge.
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    Originally Posted by fatacad View Post
    Agree 100%. Very well thought out response and I agree. Well, except for the diluted part. I get what you’re saying in that they didn’t have a reliable distillation process, but I think what they had was even stronger! No process to dilute it and organize it. I think their wine and beer was stronger But yeah Alcohol calories are weird... nobody really knows how they figure into your diet. They don't count as real calories because your body burns them first... but they count for something. I can attest to this because back in the day I would drink 10 beers a day. Technically that should be 14,000 extra calories a week added onto my nutrition plan... which equals to almost 4 pounds of fat per week. Didn't gain one ounce of extra fat. Even when I quit drinking for a while, didn't see any difference. So yeah, it's one of those things that are weird and unstudied.
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    Originally Posted by XinXom View Post
    Well then elaborate what did you mean by and I quote ". It doesn't mention MPS because it's a fake term". No it didn't measure MPS because that's not the kind of study it was. I read your study it proved nothing to me and is exactly what I would expect given my current knowledge.
    What I meant by that was that MPS has shady study qualities at best. It's not something that is easily and reliably measured, we haven't advanced that far in the world of nutritional science yet to firmly argue what protein synthesis even is, yet alone claim all these things that destroy it. MPS is a fake term in general because it has very little evidence to back it up, and in context it was in reference to ad-sponsored articles worshipping MPS to sell their magic supplement. I never said MPS doesn't exist, I said it's a fake term. It's ok if the studies I linked to doesn't prove anything to you, just like it doesn't prove it is NOT true. To each their own, and that is the purpose of this post. Not to condone heavy drinking, but for people to make their own decisions. Show me the proof on the contrary and I'll shut up about it.
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Did you eat like a bird?
    Normal eating and hit all my macros, just had 14,000 surplus calories a week in the form of "beer" and those calories had no effect. I consistently monitored my weight for a 1 year period and the supposed calories from the Lite Beer should have added up to a +50 lbs weight increase but did nothing. I even compared it to when I quit drinking alcohol for 18 months, no difference at all. Alcohol and beer calories are extremely weird.
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    We have lives to live. For us lifting is a part of that life. For some of us a couple (keyword - Couple) of cocktails are also a part of that life. Myself, I'm not going to let a couple of cocktails keep me from lifting the next day. Nor am I going to let lifting keep me from having a couple of cocktails that night.

    if I was "competition caliber" and preparing for a competition I might feel differently.

    But maybe not. I remember reading about some of the legends partying while working out. Seems they needed something different on occasion to get through the grind.

    Or some of those high flying professional rasslers? Seems too many really were high. Yet, somehow, they looked amazing and, even more amazing - all the acrobatic theatrics they called wrestling.

    Which brings me to a sidebar. "Runners High". Chemically it's similar to smoking pot. Now I'm hearing of lifters catching a little buzz to uh "enhance" their workouts.
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    Right, it seems that most extremes are to be avoided.

    Originally Posted by fatacad View Post
    Normal eating and hit all my macros, just had 14,000 surplus calories a week in the form of "beer" and those calories had no effect. I consistently monitored my weight for a 1 year period and the supposed calories from the Lite Beer should have added up to a +50 lbs weight increase but did nothing. I even compared it to when I quit drinking alcohol for 18 months, no difference at all. Alcohol and beer calories are extremely weird.
    I believe you, but unfortunately that's just not my experience at all. I know guys who are lean and seem to be able to drink without consequence. The safest route in my experience is just to count the calories anyway and know that it can't be worse than if they all did count.

    Ironically I only seem to gain weight when I drink. I lose weight pretty quickly every time I stop drinking for a while, even if that's the only thing that I change.
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    Originally Posted by joewattie View Post
    We have lives to live. For us lifting is a part of that life. For some of us a couple (keyword - Couple) of cocktails are also a part of that life. Myself, I'm not going to let a couple of cocktails keep me from lifting the next day. Nor am I going to let lifting keep me from having a couple of cocktails that night.

    if I was "competition caliber" and preparing for a competition I might feel differently.

    But maybe not. I remember reading about some of the legends partying while working out. Seems they needed something different on occasion to get through the grind.

    Or some of those high flying professional rasslers? Seems too many really were high. Yet, somehow, they looked amazing and, even more amazing - all the acrobatic theatrics they called wrestling.

    Which brings me to a sidebar. "Runners High". Chemically it's similar to smoking pot. Now I'm hearing of lifters catching a little buzz to uh "enhance" their workouts.
    Yep, to each their own. Do what you feel works best. If you can't compete or lift the day after you drink heavy, then don't drink. For most of us casual lifters who like to go out it should be completely fine. But that's a personal thing, if someone has 20 vodka shots the night before and is trashed the next day, that's not what I'm talking about.
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Right, it seems that most extremes are to be avoided.



    I believe you, but unfortunately that's just not my experience at all. I know guys who are lean and seem to be able to drink without consequence. The safest route in my experience is just to count the calories anyway and know that it can't be worse than if they all did count.

    Ironically I only seem to gain weight when I drink. I lose weight pretty quickly every time I stop drinking for a while, even if that's the only thing that I change.
    If alcohol makes you gain weight, then don't drink I do suggest you don't shy away from a cocktail or 2 when out with friends or the boys though!
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    Jeff Nippard showed studies that lack of sleep for instance coupled with inadequate protein resulted in crazy dramatic muscle loss compared to people that consumed more protein with the same lack of sleep.

    Dealing with alcohol is probably expensive for your body to manage as is focusing without sleep though isn't evidently a big deal if you're consistent with your protein and don't abuse your mishabits.
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    Originally Posted by GeneralSerpant View Post
    Jeff Nippard showed studies that lack of sleep for instance coupled with inadequate protein resulted in crazy dramatic muscle loss compared to people that consumed more protein with the same lack of sleep.

    Dealing with alcohol is probably expensive for your body to manage as is focusing without sleep though isn't evidently a big deal if you're consistent with your protein and don't abuse your mishabits.
    Mishabits?
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    tested it myself and it works surprisingly. I realized I wasn't counting alcohol calories correctly in the past kek
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    Originally Posted by snailsrus View Post
    . This year I’m also showing signs of pancreatic cancer unfortunately, even though it’s been over five years since I have drank even a drop. My levels of CA 19-9 are super high, my ct scans are not normal :/

    It is what it is. Drinking is god awful for people like me. It almost killed me
    Jesus Christ dude. I hope you are near a solid cancer center.

    I am an oncology nurse btw
    From Houston, now I am in San Diego

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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Mishabits?
    Anything between vices and mishaps.
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    Originally Posted by snailsrus View Post
    this was because I was an alcoholic. I felt I had to drink daily and quite a lot to not begin to withdrawal. I had a very bad problem with drinking. Easily I would finish a fifth in 1-2 hours at night. I ruined my organs. I have lupus and stopped taking the medication to manage it. I was also using workout supplements to maintain muscle mass. All of that bound together permanently damaged my kidneys, made the epilepsy I have from lupus much worse and gave me a fatty liver. This year I’m also showing signs of pancreatic cancer unfortunately, even though it’s been over five years since I have drank even a drop. My levels of CA 19-9 are super high, my ct scans are not normal :/

    It is what it is. Drinking is god awful for people like me. It almost killed me
    Damn! I actually have similar (but more minor) abnormalities with my pancreas and also liver function, and my drinking problems weren't nearly as bad as yours. I was, however, severely malnourished and nearly suffered multiple organ failure due to anorexia shortly before some of my hardest drinking days tho. It's amazing the amount of damage even relatively "young" people like us can have from alcohol. I used to think long-term damage of any kind from alcohol wouldn't be remotely noticeable until 50+. I was obviously quite wrong.
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