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  1. #1
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    New evidence on energy compensation

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60982221011209

    «We used the largest dataset compiled on adult TEE and basal energy expenditure (BEE) (n = 1,754) of people living normal lives to find that energy compensation by a typical human averages 28% due to reduced BEE; this suggests that only 72% of the extra calories we burn from additional activity translates into extra calories burned that day.»

    «Overall, energy compensation was not different in men versus women and did not vary with age (i.e., BEE × sex and BEE × age interactions; Table S1B). Hence, energy compensation seems to be a general phenomenon that applies equally to men and women, young and old.»

    «[...] controlling for sex, age, and FFM, compensation increases with FM. People that are at the 10th percentile of the BMI distribution compensate 27.7% of activity calories, whereas people at the 90th percentile compensate 49.2% of activity calories (Figure 3).»

    «Public health strategies for fat loss should be revised to recognize energy compensation as our understanding progresses about which individuals compensate and by how much.»
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post

    «Public health strategies for fat loss should be revised to recognize energy compensation as our understanding progresses about which individuals compensate and by how much.»

    This seems like an interesting topic to study, but difficult if not impossible to implement strategically in individuals.

    Case-in-point, prior to starting an exercise + weight-loss regimen, an individual would not know their propensity for compensations.

    Thus, they would be left to base their target energy intake on a baseline estimation followed by adjustments for real-world measurement on scale weight.

    That's kind of what we already do though....
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    Well 27% compensation sure is different than 100% compensation. Thats very similar to the legally allowed discrepancy in calories/macros on food labels
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    Well 27% compensation sure is different than 100% compensation.
    I haven't read the full text but if I'm understanding it correctly the 28% number only applies to the reduction in basal energy expenditure. The studies that reported (close to) 100% compensation were seeing most of that compensation coming from NEAT, afaik.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    I haven't read the full text but if I'm understanding it correctly the 28% number only applies to the reduction in basal energy expenditure. The studies that reported (close to) 100% compensation were seeing most of that compensation coming from NEAT, afaik.
    Actually IIRC they somewhat discount changes in NEAT in this study, citing a prior review showing there isn't much decrease in NEAT with an increase in planned physical activity. I read it in full just haven't had time to comment (and probably won't have time for awhile). I think they cite a 2017 review whereas there is a more recent review (2018) that also doesn't find consistent changes. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29845903/

    One thing to consider with these types of studies is that they may all consider activity energy expenditure but there could be a difference between people who are more active throughout a full day (ie, a manual labor job), vs someone who simply adds in a 30 minute cardio session and is otherwise sedentary.
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    Actually IIRC they somewhat discount changes in NEAT in this study, citing a prior review showing there isn't much decrease in NEAT with an increase in planned physical activity.
    I just checked it, that's the 'on average' conclusion. If you check the forest plots you'll see there are quite a few studies that did report changes in NEAT.

    The recent Hand Trial (2020) with 60 participants that wasn't included in these reviews found reduction of NEAT with the higher volume of exercise but not with the lower volume. The later reviews of this study that Eric Helms mentioned should give more insight to how accurate that conclusion was.

    PS. a few weeks back I asked a question about how effective exercise really is for weight loss. Herman Pontzer discusses the data on the podcast I posted yesterday in the other thread. His take, in short: small effect initially, and then nothing more after a while. He was citing some data including a 16 month study. Haven't read that yet. He's saying diet is far more effective.
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    I need to look back but I think the studies with higher exercise levels tend to show more of a decrease in NEAT. As I said in the other thread, exercise alone typically leads to 2-3 kg weight loss over 6 months or so in studies of people with obesity. Nutrition definitely seems to be the key factor, though I still favor incorporating resistance training for lean body mass retention. The collateral fattening hypothesis has been shown much more strongly in leaner people, but I suspect it will affect non-lean people as well.

    Regardless of the energy compensation, there's ample evidence that people who are more fit are healthier at any given BMI, so for that reason I really do favor exercise a lot. It will be awesome if someday we can determine at an individual level to what degree we expect energy compensation to occur.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    I just checked it, that's the 'on average' conclusion. If you check the forest plots you'll see there are quite a few studies that did report changes in NEAT.

    The recent Hand Trial (2020) with 60 participants that wasn't included in these reviews found reduction of NEAT with the higher volume of exercise but not with the lower volume. The later reviews of this study that Eric Helms mentioned should give more insight to how accurate that conclusion was.

    PS. a few weeks back I asked a question about how effective exercise really is for weight loss. Herman Pontzer discusses the data on the podcast I posted yesterday in the other thread. His take, in short: small effect initially, and then nothing more after a while. He was citing some data including a 16 month study. Haven't read that yet. He's saying diet is far more effective.
    I wonder if that could be one of the long-term studies mentioned in this review:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art.../#!po=0.649351

    «At 16 months, men averaged 2.8 kJ per exercise session, but TDEE increased only by 1.6 kJ.d−1. Women averaged 1.8 kJ per session, but TDEE increased only by 0.9 kJ.d−1. These data suggest that non-exercise EE decreased in both men and women. However, because these studies only measured TDEE, it is could not be determined if the reduction in non-exercise EE was due to changes in behavior, physiology, or both»
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    I've got to say I love these studies about the impact of exercise on our calories we burn. Always good to try and complicate something so very simple. I've just finished a 12 hour shift today and then went and done a workout. I wonder how my body will compensate for my busy day. It will down regulate soon so I better not eat much
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    Originally Posted by safcpaul View Post
    I've got to say I love these studies about the impact of exercise on our calories we burn. Always good to try and complicate something so very simple. I've just finished a 12 hour shift today and then went and done a workout. I wonder how my body will compensate for my busy day. It will down regulate soon so I better not eat much
    The goal is to have Elon Musk create a metabolic capture suit that precisely measures energy output using an always-in anal probe.
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    Originally Posted by safcpaul View Post
    I've got to say I love these studies about the impact of exercise on our calories we burn. Always good to try and complicate something so very simple. I've just finished a 12 hour shift today and then went and done a workout. I wonder how my body will compensate for my busy day. It will down regulate soon so I better not eat much
    The goal is to prove Adam wrong and show “evidence” that his actual experiences never happened.
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    I need to look back but I think the studies with higher exercise levels tend to show more of a decrease in NEAT. As I said in the other thread, exercise alone typically leads to 2-3 kg weight loss over 6 months or so in studies of people with obesity. Nutrition definitely seems to be the key factor, though I still favor incorporating resistance training for lean body mass retention. The collateral fattening hypothesis has been shown much more strongly in leaner people, but I suspect it will affect non-lean people as well.

    Regardless of the energy compensation, there's ample evidence that people who are more fit are healthier at any given BMI, so for that reason I really do favor exercise a lot. It will be awesome if someday we can determine at an individual level to what degree we expect energy compensation to occur.
    I noticed from the discussions that some of these studies seem to focus on sedentary, obese people as the test subjects.

    Is there any reason why very physically active, obese people don't seem to be included in these studies (at least based on the discussions)?
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    The goal is to prove Adam wrong and show “evidence” that his actual experiences never happened.
    I am so smart

    I am so smart

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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    The goal is to prove Adam wrong and show “evidence” that his actual experiences never happened.
    I think you’ve been here long enough to know that lived experience is absolutely meaningless compared to a well-made chart.
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    I think you’ve been here long enough to know that lived experience is absolutely meaningless compared to a well-made chart.
    If your experiences aren’t peer reviewed then they are just pseudo science.
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    If your experiences aren’t peer reviewed then they are just pseudo science.
    I just counted wrong every day for years on end... I also blacked out and lost my memory, and just decided to lie.

    I also contacted every professional athlete who ever got fatter after stopping their career and told them to also lie about it.

    It's a really really long con that im running for no apparent reason... im THAT into it
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    I just counted wrong every day for years on end... I also blacked out and lost my memory, and just decided to lie.

    I also contacted every professional athlete who ever got fatter after stopping their career and told them to also lie about it.

    It's a really really long con that im running for no apparent reason... im THAT into it
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    If your experiences aren’t peer reviewed then they are just pseudo science.
    Nobody here said experiences don’t matter.
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    I noticed from the discussions that some of these studies seem to focus on sedentary, obese people as the test subjects.

    Is there any reason why very physically active, obese people don't seem to be included in these studies (at least based on the discussions)?
    Most obvious factor is recruitment; there simply aren't that many very physically active people with obesity around. I do agree that would be a great cohort to study. Another factor would be wanting to do research that is applicable to the masses (were choosing sedentary subjects is the way to go).
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    Is there a point here? What is it?
    Lighten up we’re kidding around

    I wasn’t even responding to you

    Why are you interjecting in two other peoples back and forth?
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    The goal is to prove Adam wrong.
    I wouldn't necessarily say he's wrong in his claim that exercise raised his TDEE in that experience. It could be true, it could be not true.

    I think he's just way too confident in his way of "measuring" (which is really estimating) his TDEE and he's not properly considering all the potential errors (food labels, scales, tracking errors, his biasses etc. etc.) and confounding variables (dietary manipulations, under eating, etc.).

    This is probably also why Feigenbaum has so little faith in his observations.

    That being said, I also think Feigenbaum is too confident in his position.

    I expect the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

    What I found interesting in this regard is that Pontzer mentioned on the podcast that him and Kevin Hall (great researcher imo) have a slight disagreement on this topic.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Lighten up we’re kidding around

    I wasn’t even responding to you

    Why are you interjecting in two other peoples back and forth?
    I normally don’t mind the joking and silliness, but nowadays every serious thread gets hijacked by it as well and that bothers me. I just wanted to know if there is actually a point here.
    The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.

    - Richard Feynman
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    I normally don’t mind the joking and silliness, but nowadays every serious thread gets hijacked by it as well and that bothers me. I just wanted to know if there is actually a point here.
    It seems like serious discussion is becoming impossible on this forum, unfortunately.
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    Most obvious factor is recruitment;there simply aren't that many very physically active people with obesity around[/B].
    Agree it's obvious, but I wasn't sure if some would disagree so was curious about your opinion, being the good doctor. To me the fact that there are few very physically active people with obesity indicates a direct relationship between exercise/activity and weight management - regardless of what one thinks is the reason for this link.

    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    I do agree that would be a great cohort to study. Another factor would be wanting to do research that is applicable to the masses (were choosing sedentary subjects is the way to go).
    In defense of the masses, there's a whole world of people in between very physically active/fit and sedentary, obese - although the masses do lean towards the latter. Any study already limited to obese people and exercise that doesn't choose people on various levels of the physical activity (even if few are on the very active end) seems like it's losing out on potential answers in terms of the effects of exercise on weight loss. Especially since except for severe health issues, "sedentary" isn't a permanent or necessary condition.
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    I normally don’t mind the joking and silliness, but nowadays every serious thread gets hijacked by it as well and that bothers me. I just wanted to know if there is actually a point here.
    Dude it was one freaking comment… good lord…
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Dude it was one freaking comment… good lord…
    Dude, do you think science is some kind of fking joke?!!?? Do you punk?

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27439375/

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28679569/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6125057/
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    I went ahead and reported myself for misconduct...

    I have spoiled the sanctity of the forums.

    I am so ashamed
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Dude it was one freaking comment… good lord…
    One in this thread, yes. And in every other thread on the topic. If there’s a point, make it.

    I think you are using humor as a shield to hide behind.
    The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.

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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    One in this thread, yes. And in every other thread on the topic. If there’s a point, make it.

    I think you are using humor as a shield to hide behind.
    Interesting statement... am I the only one? You and mrpb and now Eli seem hell-bent on me specifically.. and yet, many others here and in the forum itself have made joking comments, threads, ALL centered on humor




    I'm hiding? Oh, ok, so we're all hiding then? Humor, to you, is purely a coping mechanism of some sort? Or is it JUST me for some reason?

    This is so funny at this point.


    Frankly, I think you, mrpb, and now I guess Eli, realize that I have actually been joking all along and mixing humor with genuine inquisition to the subjects but you hate to think maybe, just maybe, you got it wrong.

    After all, most people - that I know anyway - ENJOY a good joke... a funny back and forth... not pure 100% stick-up-my-azz heads-down analysis all the time; I do enough of that at work as it is.



    In the future, i'll stay out of your threads, I won't respond to you, mrpb, Eli... or anyone else who clearly is so dry and boring that they can't take a fukking joke.

    What a world you guys must live in.
    Last edited by AdamWW; 09-01-2021 at 10:23 AM.
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    Agree it's obvious, but I wasn't sure if some would disagree so was curious about your opinion, being the good doctor. To me the fact that there are few very physically active people with obesity indicates a direct relationship between exercise/activity and weight management - regardless of what one thinks is the reason for this link.
    Agreed with this.

    In defense of the masses, there's a whole world of people in between very physically active/fit and sedentary, obese - although the masses do lean towards the latter. Any study already limited to obese people and exercise that doesn't choose people on various levels of the physical activity (even if few are on the very active end) seems like it's losing out on potential answers in terms of the effects of exercise on weight loss. Especially since except for severe health issues, "sedentary" isn't a permanent or necessary condition.
    Yeah, agreed here too. The issue is the number of people you'll need in a study to really figure this out. Considerations:
    - baseline physical activity, as you alluded to
    - individual variability, which is always going to be a huge factor until we get a better handle on it
    - inaccuracy of energy expenditure estimates, which is common; unfortunately doubly-labelled water is resource intensive and also just tells you TDEE, not where the energy expenditure comes from
    - how to provide an "exercise dose" in a study; do you have everyone increase steps/day, add in 30 minutes of cardio daily, do different levels of cardio, etc?

    If you set up 3 baseline levels of activity, then test 3 exercise conditions, that's 9 groups right there. Given individual variability and imprecision in measurements you're going to need several dozen per group to get a decent idea of differences between them, and now you're entering unfeasible territory. Then you need to decide what you are evaluating, ie, the impact on various components of TDEE, the impact on various appetite-related hormones (leptin, ghrelin, peptide YY, etc), actual weight lost and body composition, quality of life, cardiorespiratory fitness, etc. Perhaps the people who improve cardiorespiratory fitness to a greater extent also get a greater increase in musculoskeletal efficiency; in that case their overall TDEE will downregulate more (assuming no other changes), which will seem bad, but with the greater cardiorespiratory fitness and the many health benefits associated with it this would be a win. If studies don't evaluate this they may miss that link (if it exists, just conjecture on my part), and then you may get results suggesting "Exercise method A leads to the greatest downregulation in metabolism so people with obesity shouldn't do it" when in fact if that leads to the greatest improvement in cardiorespiratory fitness then I would argue it may be the best form of exercise to do from an overall health standpoint.

    This is one of the reasons I find the nutrition/exercise physiology so interesting, there are objectively many different competing physiologic processes and it makes the whole thing a large logic puzzle (that I find particularly enjoyable).
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