View Poll Results: DO YOU PLACE YOUR FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST BELIEVING HE DIED N ROSE AGAIN FOR YOUR SINS?

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  • YES

    17 24.29%
  • NO

    18 25.71%
  • I ALREADY PLACED MY FAITH IN CHRIST AND HIS SACRIFICE FOR MY SINS

    29 41.43%
  • OTHER

    6 8.57%
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  1. #31
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    Originally Posted by ScottLefler View Post
    Halloween is coming up.
    So, when you get to heaven, are you invisible or do you look like you did when you died? How does it work?
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  2. #32
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    So, when you get to heaven, are you invisible or do you look like you did when you died? How does it work?
    I believe that we will be different in many ways, but we will still be recognizable as our earthly self. If you want to know what a Christians resurrected body will be like, study Jesus Christ after the resurrection. He looked the same, but He was different. He walked through walls, He teleported, He floated up to heaven, He had complete command over the laws of physics.
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  3. #33
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    Originally Posted by ScottLefler View Post
    I believe that we will be different in many ways, but we will still be recognizable as our earthly self. If you want to know what a Christians resurrected body will be like, study Jesus Christ after the resurrection. He looked the same, but He was different. He walked through walls, He teleported, He floated up to heaven, He had complete command over the laws of physics.
    So, if you die in a fire, burnt beyond recognition, you'll look like that for eternity? If you die at 98, all wrinkled, do you look like that for eternity? What about babies dying? Do they stay babies for eternity?
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  4. #34
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    So, if you die in a fire, burnt beyond recognition, you'll look like that for eternity? If you die at 98, all wrinkled, do you look like that for eternity? What about babies dying? Do they stay babies for eternity?
    Of course not. You will look like your ideal self, not what your flesh looked like after being mangled or destroyed.
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  5. #35
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    Originally Posted by ScottLefler View Post
    Of course not. You will look like your ideal self, not what your flesh looked like after being mangled or destroyed.
    What about dead babies? Do they have an ideal self or do they not get to Heaven because they didn't get old enough to get around to accepting Jesus Christ, etc., etc?
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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    What about dead babies? Do they have an ideal self or do they not get to Heaven because they didn't get old enough to get around to accepting Jesus Christ, etc., etc?
    I believe babies go to heaven.
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  7. #37
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    Originally Posted by ScottLefler View Post
    I believe babies go to heaven.
    Do they stay babies for eternity or do they grow into adulthood?

    What about the man that murders an atheist, but asks for forgiveness and accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior just before his execution? He goes to Heaven, but his victim doesn't?
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  8. #38
    Crawling back under rock OldFartTom's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    ... What about the man that murders an atheist, but asks for forgiveness and accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior just before his execution? He goes to Heaven, but his victim doesn't?
    Yes! Does this mean you're starting to get it? Heaven is eternity in the presence of God and Hell is eternity separated from God. Unlike some other religions, Christianity isn't a reward scheme based on accumulated points. This is clearly defined... A Christian is "someone who believes in their heart and admits with their lips that christ Jesus is their Lord and Saviour". It's not based on how many good things versus bad things and the difference between the scores
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  9. #39
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    Yes! Does this mean you're starting to get it? Heaven is eternity in the presence of God and Hell is eternity separated from God. Unlike some other religions, Christianity isn't a reward scheme based on accumulated points. This is clearly defined... A Christian is "someone who believes in their heart and admits with their lips that christ Jesus is their Lord and Saviour". It's not based on how many good things versus bad things and the difference between the scores
    I get your belief system, but if you believe what you posted, then you don't. The death that Jesus talked about wasn't physical death.
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  10. #40
    Crawling back under rock OldFartTom's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    I get your belief system, but if you believe what you posted, then you don't. The death that Jesus talked about wasn't physical death.
    I don't get it, if you understand the belief system (irrespective of if you agree/believe it), why did you ask that question about the murderer/murdered person?

    Jesus did talk about both physical death and spiritual death, depending on which part of the Bible you are referring to, although agree with you the bulk of his teaching on death is concerning the spiritual not merely physical.
    That all said... the bulk of his teaching is about how to live and that love is the answer (God and each other). He didn't give us many parables where someone dies, most notable though is the foolish farmer (who dies), but again that's one on how to live.
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  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    I don't get it, if you understand the belief system (irrespective of if you agree/believe it), why did you ask that question about the murderer/murdered person?

    Jesus did talk about both physical death and spiritual death, depending on which part of the Bible you are referring to, although agree with you the bulk of his teaching on death is concerning the spiritual not merely physical.
    That all said... the bulk of his teaching is about how to live and that love is the answer (God and each other). He didn't give us many parables where someone dies, most notable though is the foolish farmer (who dies), but again that's one on how to live.
    Apparently, the 'how to live' and 'love is the answer' stuff can be ignored completely. You can rape children and rob and murder people and all you have to do to live for eternity with God, is repent and accept Christ etc., etc. before you die. I'm taking a wild guess that living with God for eternity is better than living without God for eternity. Do you really not understand why I was asking those questions pertaining to a belief system that purports that?

    I maintain that the actual death that Jesus referred to, is the death of the mental fabrication called the experiencer.
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  12. #42
    Crawling back under rock OldFartTom's Avatar
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    I think your argument is mischievous. Clearly Christianity doesn't encourage or enable any of those actions. Not only would it be completely contrary to the teachings on how to live, we're even warned not to try the approach of sin now repent later.

    For example that "the day of the lord comes like a thief in the night" i.e. can be unexpected and without warning, but parables like the foolish farmer (mentioned earlier) who is self centered and trying to amass worldly wealth and dies suddenly, so the selfishly get rich now and repent later strategy didn't work.

    Your argument is a straw man fallacy, you build a distorted and incorrect argument to knock down. Happy for anyone to disagree and challenge, but please challenge the actual teaching not a distortion. There's plenty of genuine "difficult" teaching you could challenge, some of which I can answer, some I cannot.
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  13. #43
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    Do they stay babies for eternity or do they grow into adulthood?

    What about the man that murders an atheist, but asks for forgiveness and accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior just before his execution? He goes to Heaven, but his victim doesn't?
    I believe that they grow up in heaven to their adult body ideal self.

    Yes, the one who genuinely places their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation believing that He died and rose again for their sins goes to heaven because we are all sinners and the only way to heaven is through faith in Christ and His Sacrifice.
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  14. #44
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    I think your argument is mischievous. Clearly Christianity doesn't encourage or enable any of those actions. Not only would it be completely contrary to the teachings on how to live, we're even warned not to try the approach of sin now repent later.

    For example that "the day of the lord comes like a thief in the night" i.e. can be unexpected and without warning, but parables like the foolish farmer (mentioned earlier) who is self centered and trying to amass worldly wealth and dies suddenly, so the selfishly get rich now and repent later strategy didn't work.

    Your argument is a straw man fallacy, you build a distorted and incorrect argument to knock down. Happy for anyone to disagree and challenge, but please challenge the actual teaching not a distortion. There's plenty of genuine "difficult" teaching you could challenge, some of which I can answer, some I cannot.
    No strawman. In response to this question: "What about the man that murders an atheist, but asks for forgiveness and accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior just before his execution? He goes to Heaven, but his victim doesn't?",
    you said 'YES'.
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  15. #45
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    Originally Posted by ScottLefler View Post
    I believe that they grow up in heaven to their adult body ideal self.

    Yes, the one who genuinely places their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation believing that He died and rose again for their sins goes to heaven because we are all sinners and the only way to heaven is through faith in Christ and His Sacrifice.
    I wasn't going to respond to your post, because I don't think you guys need anymore rope, but I'll relate a short story:

    When the hospital sent my mother home to die, one of her friends who was visiting, asked if she had thought about repenting and accepting Jesus Christ as her savior. My mother asked 'why'. Her friend replied: "Just in case" and they both burst out laughing.
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  16. #46
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    No strawman. In response to this question: "What about the man that murders an atheist, but asks for forgiveness and accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior just before his execution? He goes to Heaven, but his victim doesn't?",
    you said 'YES'.
    Excuse me if I've misunderstood something having only skimmed through this thread, but I think what Tom is saying is that you seem to be defining access to Heaven by the deeds of the individual, rather than the forgiveness of those deeds by Jesus Christ. Nobody is worthy of communion with God and this is central to Christianity, but the point is that Jesus did not sin but yet was genuinely a man and so able to be our representative before God in taking our penalty for it. And this is a free gift to those who believe! Unattainable on our own yet given freely to us.

    Two other things which it seems you're not seeing from the right perspective: being forgiven of sin does not mean that we stop sinning, but it does mean that we grow increasingly convicted of it. In some things, my conscience has become sensitive over things I would not have batted an eyelash at in the past, and some of the quite bad things that I've done really grieve me to think about. Someone who sincerely believes the Gospel would be eaten alive internally for doing something like murder, if they would do it at all, but again, it's not the sum or balance of one's deeds that determines their state of grace.

    Also, it's impossible to speak to the state of that atheist's heart. Perhaps deeply they do believe and Jesus and are saved for it, despite their outward dismissal. Numerous atheists who become Christians testify in hindsight that their disbelief stemmed from anger at the concept of God rather than a legitimate disbelief.

    Finally, challenge the materialist worldview and find how many concerning weakpoints it has which can hardly shoulder the burden of proof of explaining reality. I realize that is no dichotomy with Christianity in particular, but think it a fair thing to mention when many of the objections to it take the form of casual references to "science" which is often conveniently elusive and not examined by the layperson with so much ostensible faith in it.
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Excuse me if I've misunderstood something having only skimmed through this thread, but I think what Tom is saying is that you seem to be defining access to Heaven by the deeds of the individual, rather than the forgiveness of those deeds by Jesus Christ. Nobody is worthy of communion with God and this is central to Christianity, but the point is that Jesus did not sin but yet was genuinely a man and so able to be our representative before God in taking our penalty for it. And this is a free gift to those who believe! Unattainable on our own yet given freely to us.

    Two other things which it seems you're not seeing from the right perspective: being forgiven of sin does not mean that we stop sinning, but it does mean that we grow increasingly convicted of it. In some things, my conscience has become sensitive over things I would not have batted an eyelash at in the past, and some of the quite bad things that I've done really grieve me to think about. Someone who sincerely believes the Gospel would be eaten alive internally for doing something like murder, if they would do it at all, but again, it's not the sum or balance of one's deeds that determines their state of grace.

    Also, it's impossible to speak to the state of that atheist's heart. Perhaps deeply they do believe and Jesus and are saved for it, despite their outward dismissal. Numerous atheists who become Christians testify in hindsight that their disbelief stemmed from anger at the concept of God rather than a legitimate disbelief.

    Finally, challenge the materialist worldview and find how many concerning weakpoints it has which can hardly shoulder the burden of proof of explaining reality. I realize that is no dichotomy with Christianity in particular, but think it a fair thing to mention when many of the objections to it take the form of casual references to "science" which is often conveniently elusive and not examined by the layperson with so much ostensible faith in it.
    Your post is big time non-sequitur. All I've done is ask questions about the belief system and given examples of the answers I got. I don't respond to specific rantings, though.
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    No strawman. In response to this question: "What about the man that murders an atheist, but asks for forgiveness and accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior just before his execution? He goes to Heaven, but his victim doesn't?",
    you said 'YES'.
    That's correct. I didn't even think we were still debating that, thought it was done and dusted... If it's not labouring the point there is a parable about that. The condensed version is a man owns a vineyard and he gets some workers against an agreed day rate. He hired some extra hands near the end of the day. He pays them all the same regardless if they did a full day or just the last bit. Some of the workers are very unhappy about that.
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    I'll go to heaven because i stoned a man to death for saying jehova...
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    That's correct. I didn't even think we were still debating that, thought it was done and dusted... If it's not labouring the point there is a parable about that. The condensed version is a man owns a vineyard and he gets some workers against an agreed day rate. He hired some extra hands near the end of the day. He pays them all the same regardless if they did a full day or just the last bit. Some of the workers are very unhappy about that.
    I was not debating. I asked questions and gave examples of the answers I got.
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    I'll go to heaven because i stoned a man to death for saying jehova...
    Reminds me of a joke. Jesus comes upon a crowd that is just about to stone a prostitute and proclaims: "Let the one who has not sinned, cast the first stone." A little old lady picks up a rock, throws it at the prostitute, hits her in the head and kills her. Jesus turns to the woman and says: "Mother, sometimes you really piss me off."
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    Originally Posted by ScottLefler View Post
    Geez
    ... uz.
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    This is why the aliens won't visit us.
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    Originally Posted by merlen90 View Post
    This is why the aliens won't visit us.
    If they're waiting for the human race to go beyond their 'experiencer continuation after the death of the body' belief systems, they won't be visiting any time soon.
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    The aliens seem to prefer visiting people with mountain dew teeth (now that's an insult when it comes from a Brit) who live in remote parts of West Virginia or Manitoba etc, so if the aliens pass me by for a while I won't feel too disappointed.
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    The aliens seem to prefer visiting people with mountain dew teeth (now that's an insult when it comes from a Brit) who live in remote parts of West Virginia or Manitoba etc, so if the aliens pass me by for a while I won't feel too disappointed.
    I haven't heard anything about aliens visiting Manitoba. I think the bird sized mosquitos would scare them away.
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    I haven't heard anything about aliens visiting Manitoba. I think the bird sized mosquitos would scare them away.
    That's right, you've never heard of Falcon Lake and then go on to mention some reason not to go anywhere in Manitoba. You are sticking to the story very proficiently
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    That's right, you've never heard of Falcon Lake and then go on to mention some reason not to go anywhere in Manitoba. You are sticking to the story very proficiently
    I've hitch hiked to Manitoba more times than I have fingers, but Falcon Lake was never on my radar and I don't pay attention to hoaxes. I had no story.
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