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  1. #1
    Registered User Heisman2's Avatar
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    If you haven't been vaccinated against COVID-19 yet, now would be a good time

    Just some quick thoughts on this I wanted to share. Please keep any misc-worthy comments out of this thread.

    1. The delta variant is much more contagious than prior variants, likely due to a higher viral load being found in samples (1,000x higher by at least one study).

    2. In the entire history of vaccines, approved and not approved, there has never been any vaccine that generated a new side-effect more than 2 months after it was given. There is no reason to think that would be any different with the COVID-19 vaccines.

    3. The initial vaccine trials began >1 year ago, and the vaccines have been widely available to the general public for >7 months. Over 100 million people have gotten it. We are not seeing any evidence of a significant risk of adverse reactions to it.

    4. If the vaccines were going to cause a significant reaction, which would likely be from expression of the spike protein and the immune response to this, there is no reason to think the same would not occur with COVID-19, with the big difference being that if you get actual COVID-19 your body will make many more proteins in addition to the spike protein and will also make then in many different areas of the body.

    5. As contagious as the delta variant is, the question is changing from "should I get vaccinated or not" to "should I get exposed to COVID-19 with or without having already been vaccinated".

    6. We have ample data now that the vaccines work extremely well. Yes, some people still get very sick and some people even die, but the percentage that do is much smaller than the percentage who do without getting vaccinated.

    Conclusion: In my mind as a physician who has been discussing this with many other physicians for over a year now, there is no logical reason to wait any longer to get the vaccine. You will almost certainly get COVID-19 at some point if you do not and all signs point to the vaccine offering significant protection with very minimal risk.
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    Already had Covid.

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    Serious rebuttal: since the vaccine is now readily available and reliable beyond reasonable suspicion, and furthermore the vast majority of those at notable risk have already received it, why then does it behoove healthy people who are at low risk to receive it? That same group of people are also at low risk of complication from the actual virus itself, and would additionally self-quarantine if/once actually sick anyway, thereafter acquiring immunity.

    I'm not vehemently against it and will most likely have to sooner or later for employment and travel purposes, but for the time being I am passively reluctant. What is the imperative? To protect those who are at risk and already vaccinated, themselves?
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    Six months ago would have been a good time ...
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    Registered User Heisman2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Serious rebuttal: since the vaccine is now readily available and reliable beyond reasonable suspicion, and furthermore the vast majority of those at notable risk have already received it, why then does it behoove healthy people who are at low risk to receive it? That same group of people are also at low risk of complication from the actual virus itself, and would additionally self-quarantine if/once actually sick anyway, thereafter acquiring immunity.

    I'm not vehemently against it and will most likely have to sooner or later for employment and travel purposes, but for the time being I am passively reluctant. What is the imperative? To protect those who are at risk and already vaccinated, themselves?
    The delta variant is hitting younger people harder. If you get the vaccine chances are that at most you will feel like crap for 1-2 days and have a sore arm for a couple days beyond that, and you may only feel bad after the 2nd dose (if you get a 2 dose series). If you get COVID-19 there is a much higher chance it will hit you for quite a bit longer. When I got COVID-19 (prior to getting vaccinated) for example, I couldn't get out of bed for a few days and even 12 days after symptom onset my heart rate would go up to 120 just walking around. I got the first dose of the vaccine 3 weeks after that point and I felt bad for no more than 36 hours (though my arm was quite sore for several days).
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    I've been fully vaccinated since March and I don't regret it one bit. This is just my opinion and I respect everyone's choice. I currently had an employee call out all last week due to Covid, he is in his early 20's. Say's he is currently on day 6 and still feeling like death.

    I also have another employee who is a collegiate football player and works for me as his summer job. He got Covid last fall and was deathly ill for 2 weeks. He is currently suffering the "long Covid" symptoms. he still has no sense of smell and says his lung capacity is significantly reduced to what it was prior to Covid.

    To me, it came down to the potential long term effects of Covid versus a vaccine with very minimal side effects in most people. I felt like my odds receiving the vaccine and having no reaction/complications outweighed the possible risk of getting Covid itself.

    Maybe Heisman can chime in on this, but isn't it also beneficial to get the population vaccinated to prevent the risk of it mutating into something much worse?
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  9. #9
    Registered User Heisman2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    Maybe Heisman can chime in on this, but isn't it also beneficial to get the population vaccinated to prevent the risk of it mutating into something much worse?
    Yes, but unfortunately that has to be considered on a global perspective. Until we get more vaccines distributed across the globe that's going to continue to be a problem.
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    Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    I've been fully vaccinated since March and I don't regret it one bit. This is just my opinion and I respect everyone's choice. I currently had an employee call out all last week due to Covid, he is in his early 20's. Say's he is currently on day 6 and still feeling like death.

    I also have another employee who is a collegiate football player and works for me as his summer job. He got Covid last fall and was deathly ill for 2 weeks. He is currently suffering the "long Covid" symptoms. he still has no sense of smell and says his lung capacity is significantly reduced to what it was prior to Covid.

    To me, it came down to the potential long term effects of Covid versus a vaccine with very minimal side effects in most people. I felt like my odds receiving the vaccine and having no reaction/complications outweighed the possible risk of getting Covid itself.

    Maybe Heisman can chime in on this, but isn't it also beneficial to get the population vaccinated to prevent the risk of it mutating into something much worse?
    Viruses always will mutate, and in doing so only become more contagious, but less severe, in a virus where most people who had it didn’t even realize they were infected it to begin with.
    Last edited by BeginnerGainz; 07-24-2021 at 06:16 PM.
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    He>i BlackJack619's Avatar
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    Op which vaccine are your promoting?
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    The delta variant is hitting younger people harder. If you get the vaccine chances are that at most you will feel like crap for 1-2 days and have a sore arm for a couple days beyond that, and you may only feel bad after the 2nd dose (if you get a 2 dose series). If you get COVID-19 there is a much higher chance it will hit you for quite a bit longer. When I got COVID-19 (prior to getting vaccinated) for example, I couldn't get out of bed for a few days and even 12 days after symptom onset my heart rate would go up to 120 just walking around. I got the first dose of the vaccine 3 weeks after that point and I felt bad for no more than 36 hours (though my arm was quite sore for several days).
    Incidentally I woke up with a mildly sore throat and have wanted to sleep all day - though the fatigue is most likely attributable to heavy squats on a deficit, which tend to wipe me out anyway.

    Hmm, I will consider it. I hate needles and faint every time I get stuck. The last time I got my blood drawn I was out cold for longer than normal and the nurse couldn't bring me back; when I came to the rest of the floor was involved in trying to wake me up. Felt terrible and oxygen-starved the whole day. I realize getting covid is a bigger deal but in my decision making metric, it plays a part when those at greatest risk are already vaccinated.

    However, if I did get sick, I would get tested and if positive would quarantine.
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  13. #13
    Registered User Heisman2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BlackJack619 View Post
    Op which vaccine are your promoting?
    Anything you have access to, though most people favor the mRNA vaccines as being more efficacious, though that could be due to the fact that they are in a 2 dose series. They seem to be holding up well against the variants.

    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    Viruses always will mutate, and in doing so only become more contagious, but less severe, in a virus where most people who had it didn’t even realize they were infected it to begin with.
    Usually they do mutate and become less severe but the delta variant thus far doesn't seem to be following that trend.

    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Incidentally I woke up with a mildly sore throat and have wanted to sleep all day - though the fatigue is most likely attributable to heavy squats on a deficit, which tend to wipe me out anyway.

    Hmm, I will consider it. I hate needles and faint every time I get stuck. The last time I got my blood drawn I was out cold for longer than normal and the nurse couldn't bring me back; when I came to the rest of the floor was involved in trying to wake me up. Felt terrible and oxygen-starved the whole day. I realize getting covid is a bigger deal but in my decision making metric, it plays a part when those at greatest risk are already vaccinated.

    However, if I did get sick, I would get tested and if positive would quarantine.
    Maybe try to eat a lot of salt and drink a lot of water before getting the stick and then lay down while they do it?
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    Just some quick thoughts on this I wanted to share. Please keep any misc-worthy comments out of this thread.

    1. The delta variant is much more contagious than prior variants, likely due to a higher viral load being found in samples (1,000x higher by at least one study).

    2. In the entire history of vaccines, approved and not approved, there has never been any vaccine that generated a new side-effect more than 2 months after it was given. There is no reason to think that would be any different with the COVID-19 vaccines.

    3. The initial vaccine trials began >1 year ago, and the vaccines have been widely available to the general public for >7 months. Over 100 million people have gotten it. We are not seeing any evidence of a significant risk of adverse reactions to it.

    4. If the vaccines were going to cause a significant reaction, which would likely be from expression of the spike protein and the immune response to this, there is no reason to think the same would not occur with COVID-19, with the big difference being that if you get actual COVID-19 your body will make many more proteins in addition to the spike protein and will also make then in many different areas of the body.

    5. As contagious as the delta variant is, the question is changing from "should I get vaccinated or not" to "should I get exposed to COVID-19 with or without having already been vaccinated".

    6. We have ample data now that the vaccines work extremely well. Yes, some people still get very sick and some people even die, but the percentage that do is much smaller than the percentage who do without getting vaccinated.

    Conclusion: In my mind as a physician who has been discussing this with many other physicians for over a year now, there is no logical reason to wait any longer to get the vaccine. You will almost certainly get COVID-19 at some point if you do not and all signs point to the vaccine offering significant protection with very minimal risk.
    Great post.

    I think you should consider posting it at the “Misc” as well. There seem to be more vaccine deniers there than anywhere else I have seen.
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    Great post.

    I think you should consider posting it at the “Misc” as well. There seem to be more vaccine deniers there than anywhere else I have seen.
    I have not posted in the misc in a long, long time, but sure, I will give it a shot.
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    Maybe try to eat a lot of salt and drink a lot of water before getting the stick and then lay down while they do it?
    That's another way of saying "Assume the terminal position."

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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    I have not posted in the misc in a long, long time, but sure, I will give it a shot.
    That escalated quickly - I am sorry I talked you into it lol

    Kind of amazed at your patience in dealing with certain miscers
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    That escalated quickly - I am sorry I talked you into it lol

    Kind of amazed at your patience in dealing with certain miscers
    LOL, I've been here a lot longer than you have if our join date is accurate. I knew what I was getting into.
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    The vaccine is anything but safe, & it’s not even effective.
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    Originally Posted by faucicel View Post
    The science behind the vaccines is sound. All the nobel laureates and smartest scientists in the world are in agreement here. If you havent gotten the jab yet, get it before the delta gets you. I have a molecular biology degree and was a research assistant. I know a lot about science and can tell you that you are a moron if you dont get the jab.
    Is this post a joke? The Delta is effecting the vaxxed the most..
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    Originally Posted by faucicel View Post
    You watch too much faux news. There is a reason the doctors and scientists are in charge of the pandemic response and not trumpers.

    I have molecular biology and physics degrees and started a PhD program. I was a research assistant. I know my science.
    Oh really..do you wanna go through the Science?
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    Originally Posted by faucicel View Post
    You watch too much faux news. There is a reason the doctors and scientists are in charge of the pandemic response and not trumpers.

    I have molecular biology and physics degrees and started a PhD program. I was a research assistant. I know my science.
    Okay Mister..”I know my Science” lets go through the science..

    Decades' Worth of Research Has Shown Us That ALL Attempts At Making Coronavirus Vaccines Result In Antibody Dependent Enhancement And/Or Liver Damage.

    -A perspective on potential antibody-dependent enhancement of SARS-CoV-2 | Nature

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2538-8

    Antibody-dependent enhancement of coronavirus - PubMed

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32920233/

    Evaluation of modified vaccinia virus Ankara based recombinant SARS vaccine in ferrets - PubMed

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15755610/

    SARS vaccine linked to liver damage in ferret study | CIDRAP

    https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-pers...e-ferret-study

    Immunization with Modified Vaccinia Virus Ankara-Based Recombinant Vaccine against Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Is Associated with Enhanced Hepatitis in Ferrets | Journal of Virology

    https://journals.asm.org/doi/full/10...672-12676.2004

    Humoral immune responses in rabbits induced by an experimental inactivated severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus vaccine prepared from F69 strain - PubMed

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15569476/

    Comparative evaluation of two severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) vaccine candidates in mice challenged with SARS coronavirus - PubMed

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16476986/


    Antibody-dependent enhancement and SARS-CoV-2 vaccines and therapies | Nature Microbiology

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-00789-5

    Immunization with SARS Coronavirus Vaccines Leads to Pulmonary Immunopathology on Challenge with the SARS Virus

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0035421

    Pathogenic priming likely contributes to serious and critical illness and mortality in COVID-19 via autoimmunity - ScienceDirect

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...89909020300186

    The SARS-CoV ferret model in an infection-challenge study - PubMed

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18234270/

    Immune Responses and Disease Enhancement during Respiratory Syncytial Virus Infection | Clinical Microbiology Reviews (RSV is not a coronavirus, but its structure is extremely similar and the vaccine attempts have yielded similar results.)

    https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128...rmanently=true

    RSV, Measles, and Dengue vaccines all caused ADE at some point. Good explanation of ADE as well..

    https://www.chop.edu/centers-program...t-and-vaccines

    Antibody-Dependent Enhancement and the Coronavirus Vaccines

    https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipelin...virus-vaccines

    Immunization with SARS coronavirus vaccines leads to pulmonary immunopathology on challenge with the SARS virus

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22536382/


    The majority of Virologist who warned us of the vaccine specifically stated that the vaccine would prevent our own immune system from protecting us from future Variants.

    This is demonstrated now by all the young people who were vaccinated are now being effected by the variants and mutations, and every single study posted above.

    The best and simplest method to fight this disease is with our natural immunity.

    Best to get the bug and survive the future variants.


    It’s evident, you don’t know a damn thing
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    Just some quick thoughts on this I wanted to share. Please keep any misc-worthy comments out of this thread.

    1. The delta variant is much more contagious than prior variants, likely due to a higher viral load being found in samples (1,000x higher by at least one study).

    2. In the entire history of vaccines, approved and not approved, there has never been any vaccine that generated a new side-effect more than 2 months after it was given. There is no reason to think that would be any different with the COVID-19 vaccines.

    3. The initial vaccine trials began >1 year ago, and the vaccines have been widely available to the general public for >7 months. Over 100 million people have gotten it. We are not seeing any evidence of a significant risk of adverse reactions to it.

    4. If the vaccines were going to cause a significant reaction, which would likely be from expression of the spike protein and the immune response to this, there is no reason to think the same would not occur with COVID-19, with the big difference being that if you get actual COVID-19 your body will make many more proteins in addition to the spike protein and will also make then in many different areas of the body.

    5. As contagious as the delta variant is, the question is changing from "should I get vaccinated or not" to "should I get exposed to COVID-19 with or without having already been vaccinated".

    6. We have ample data now that the vaccines work extremely well. Yes, some people still get very sick and some people even die, but the percentage that do is much smaller than the percentage who do without getting vaccinated.

    Conclusion: In my mind as a physician who has been discussing this with many other physicians for over a year now, there is no logical reason to wait any longer to get the vaccine. You will almost certainly get COVID-19 at some point if you do not and all signs point to the vaccine offering significant protection with very minimal risk.
    Pretty much every study I posted, proves you are wrong..

    But this bit..

    “The initial vaccine trials began >1 year ago, and the vaccines have been widely available to the general public for >7 months. Over 100 million people have gotten it. We are not seeing any evidence of a significant risk of adverse reactions to it.”

    What pure bullchit..This vaccine is fuking people up, & don’t wait for those “long-term” studies. There won’t ever be a long term effects study, because Pfizer and Moderna both unblinded their studies after three months and offered the vaccine to the control group that had received the placebo. Double blind studies are the gold standard for establishing causation, and now we will never have that medium or long term data. So when they say, “There’s no evidence that mRNA vaccines cause [bad thing that vaccinated people are experiencing]” that’s why. They avoided the opportunity to create the evidence.

    There is a good probability that an mRNA strand can enter the nucleus of the cell and overwrite the p53 gene, which regulates cell replication and is otherwise known as the 'tumor suppressor gene.' If the p53 gene in even one cell is damaged, it means the cell will multiply uncontrollably. One cell becomes two, two become four, four becomes eight, and so on, indefinitely, into thousands, millions, billions. The resulting tissue mass is a called a tumor, and what we're talking about is cancer.

    As a rough estimate, given that a virus protein spike weighs about 200 kDa, let's say there are 100 trillion mRNA strands in the standard 30 microgram dose of covid-19 gene therapy (aka, 'vaccine'). Let's say that 99.9% of the mRNA strands are converted by ribosomes into protein spikes, which 'train' the immune system to fight the actual virus. Fine, then the 'vaccine' is a success. But also not fine, because 100 billion mRNA strands are still available to enter the nuclei of cells and be reverse-transcripted into the DNA, and possibly disable the p53 genes of one or more cells and thereby cause cancer.
    The probability of that happening is low, but is it less than one chance in 100 billion? It had better be, because if even one of those 100 billion mRNA strands penetrates just one cellular nucleus and damages just one p53 gene, then you've got cancer. I don't know the odds, and neither do the doctors. It takes a year or more for a tumor to grow large enough to become detectable, and they did not do long-term testing on the vaccines. They did trials that lasted a few weeks, and then they released the vaccines to the general public, and now a billion people have taken the shots. In effect, the general public is now engaged in the first long-term trial to determine whether mRNA vaccines can cause tumors. The doctors won't be able to state with assurance that mRNA vaccines do not cause cancer until the conclusion of the trial period.
    I'm waiting for the results of the long-term (assuming you consider one/two years to be 'long-term') trial that you have enrolled in, but while you're still alive and I have the opportunity to do so, I want to thank everyone who has volunteered to be a part of this experiment. Considering the risk, what you're doing is extremely brave. You had only a one in 500 chance of dying of the virus, and now we have no idea of what the chance is of you dying of cancer from the vaccine. But we will find out in about a year or two, If you're still around and in good health..
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    THE PFIZER MANUFACTURING AND SUPPLY AGREEMENT'

    “the long-term effects and efficacy of the Vaccine are not currently known and that there may be adverse effects of the Vaccine that are not currently known“

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7O1567WUAMpHdY.png


    What a bullchit artist you are opie
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    Originally Posted by faucicel View Post
    You watch too much faux news. There is a reason the doctors and scientists are in charge of the pandemic response and not trumpers.

    I have molecular biology and physics degrees and started a PhD program. I was a research assistant. I know my science.
    “I know my science”

    -Presented actual science that destroys his narrative

    -Crickets
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    Paul Kreul, I will not engage with you fully as it's clear from the other thread you are unwilling to change your views, but for other people who are looking:
    - Antibody-dependent enhancement is not a concern here; we know some vaccinated individuals are having breakthrough infections and these infections have been mild. If antibody-dependent enhancement was a concern those infections would be severe.
    - There is essentially ZERO probability the mRNA strand can overwrite the p53 gene. Physically impossible actually. That's not what mRNA does. the mRNA won't even enter the nucleus. If it did and it somehow got inserted into the genome, it wouldn't overwrite another gene. There is no reverse transcriptase included in the vaccine so not sure why you brought that up. If random mRNA could be reverse transcribed into the genome at any time then all of our genomes would be filled with these transcripts as we continuously make mRNA, but this doesn't happen. For those curious for more reading, see here: https://theconversation.com/can-the-...ic-code-162590
    - I and many other doctors have tons of patients who have been vaccinated and know tons of people in general who have been vaccinated. I don't know anyone who has had a serious side-effect. I'm not going to say that nobody is having serious side-effects but it's definitely not a high percentage.

    We can revisit this topic in 2 years and see if at that time lots of new cases of cancer are occurring related to the vaccine.
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    Originally Posted by faucicel View Post
    You watch too much faux news. There is a reason the doctors and scientists are in charge of the pandemic response and not trumpers.

    I have molecular biology and physics degrees and started a PhD program. I was a research assistant. I know my science.
    Either the turd is back, or somebody is parodying the turd.
    "Buy a man eat fish, the day, teach man, to lifetime." - Joe Biden
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    Paul Kreul, I will not engage with you fully as it's clear from the other thread you are unwilling to change your views, but for other people who are looking:
    - Antibody-dependent enhancement is not a concern here; we know some vaccinated individuals are having breakthrough infections and these infections have been mild. If antibody-dependent enhancement was a concern those infections would be severe.
    - There is essentially ZERO probability the mRNA strand can overwrite the p53 gene. Physically impossible actually. That's not what mRNA does. the mRNA won't even enter the nucleus. If it did and it somehow got inserted into the genome, it wouldn't overwrite another gene. There is no reverse transcriptase included in the vaccine so not sure why you brought that up. If random mRNA could be reverse transcribed into the genome at any time then all of our genomes would be filled with these transcripts as we continuously make mRNA, but this doesn't happen. For those curious for more reading, see here: https://theconversation.com/can-the-...ic-code-162590
    - I and many other doctors have tons of patients who have been vaccinated and know tons of people in general who have been vaccinated. I don't know anyone who has had a serious side-effect. I'm not going to say that nobody is having serious side-effects but it's definitely not a high percentage.

    We can revisit this topic in 2 years and see if at that time lots of new cases of cancer are occurring related to the vaccine.
    Now I know you haven’t done your research. The vaccinated are suffering severely from the Delta, in fact I wouldn’t be surprised if the Delta is simply just the vaccine side effects., seeing constantly the effects of blood clots from the vaccine in every hospital I’m in..about 5 per week..
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    Originally Posted by Paul Kreul View Post
    Now I know you haven’t done your research. The vaccinated are suffering severely from the Delta, in fact I wouldn’t be surprised if the Delta is simply just the vaccine side effects., seeing constantly the effects of blood clots from the vaccine in every hospital I’m in..about 5 per week..

    Actually in my home state, which is having increasing amounts of Delta, over 99% of the hospitalized patients for covid-19 are unvaccinated, and over 99% of the deaths for covid-19 are from unvaccinated individuals.
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    Actually in my home state, which is having increasing amounts of Delta, over 99% of the hospitalized patients for covid-19 are unvaccinated, and over 99% of the deaths for covid-19 are from unvaccinated individuals.
    What state?
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