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  1. #91
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    The average obese person has no business “intuitive eating”. I think it the whole concept gets misconstrued as “eat whatever you want”. It’s more like, “get to a place where eating what you want is also eating what your body needs”.

    100% agree.

    I liken it to 'intuitive spending' for someone who is educated and smart about money and budgeting vs for somebody who has a gambling problem and no sense of savings or debt... give someone like that a credit card and they'll rack up massive debt in no time.
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  2. #92
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    100% agree.

    I liken it to 'intuitive spending' for someone who is educated and smart about money and budgeting vs for somebody who has a gambling problem and no sense of savings or debt... give someone like that a credit card and they'll rack up massive debt in no time.
    But if you factually know what you need to eat on a day to day basis, how is this intuition rather than a memorization of facts? "Hunger" or at least the desire to eat is intuitive, even when it's abused and doesn't actually speak to any legitimate need for more nourishment.
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  3. #93
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    But if you factually know what you need to eat on a day to day basis, how is this intuition rather than a memorization of facts? "Hunger" or at least the desire to eat is intuitive, even when it's abused and doesn't actually speak to any legitimate need for more nourishment.

    Intuitive is a pretty nebulous term.

    When I use that term, I just mean eating in a way (in terms of timing/response to hunger as well as good selection) which relies on your knowledge of food and nutrition but doesn't necessarily involve the counting/tracking/weighing of everything you eat for the purpose of managing energy intake or body comp.

    For example, I love the taste of carrot cake, in fact I like the taste of it better than oatmeal with protein powder if you were to simply isolate the taste alone.

    HOWEVER, when I wake in the morning, I don't JUST crave taste pleasure, and part of that is conditioning of my brain to understand what the physical response would be do consuming a pint of carrot cake vs that bowl of proatmeal.

    'Intuitive' in a dietary context just means I'm not consciously focusing on the calories/numbers when I make decisions.

    For example, Im willing to bet heroine feels better than a cup of coffee.... but both give me a kind of dopamine kick because I love the taste of coffee, it has a nostalgic value to it, it (oddly enough) calms me down at the end of a workday because I can just relax and sip it.

    Then if I know heroine would feel so much better, wouldn't it be 'intuitive' to just do that? Well, no, because there are consequences that drive me not to.

    Same with the Carrot Cake vs Oatmeal example. Yes, on TASTE ALONE, I would go for carrot cake I guess, but that's not the only factor.
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  4. #94
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    But if you factually know what you need to eat on a day to day basis, how is this intuition rather than a memorization of facts? "Hunger" or at least the desire to eat is intuitive, even when it's abused and doesn't actually speak to any legitimate need for more nourishment.
    We are getting somewhat philosophical now!

    I think intuition and memorization are often very closely related. People with a very strong "intuition" in various areas are typically people with much more information about that area of knowledge stored in their long term memory. So they can more quickly and effortlessly draw upon that knowledge base - and people then label this as "intuitive".

    When I build a mental archive of various food items in my brain, I may be able to eventually stop using a food scale. I have stopped weighing a lot of stuff already as I already know how many calories they contain. With time I may be able to do what Adam is doing (not even consciously thinking in terms of "1 piece of chocolate = 50 calories"), I don't know.
    Last edited by EiFit91; 06-15-2021 at 10:59 AM.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Im willing to bet heroine feels better than a cup of coffee....
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    We are getting somewhat philosophical now!

    I think intuition and memorization are often very closely related. People with a very strong "intuition" in various areas are typically people with much more information about that area of knowledge stored in their long term memory. So they can more quickly and effortlessly draw upon that knowledge base - and people then label this as "intuitive".

    When I build a mental archive of various food items in my brain, I may be able to eventually stop using a food scale. I have stopped weighing a lot of stuff already as I already know how many calories they contain. With time I may be able to do what Adam is doing (not even consciously thinking in terms of "1 piece of chocolate = 50 calories"), I don't know.
    I don’t count calories, just eat in stages of “more”, “less”, “about the same” and “IDGAF” with the mirror and pants fit as a reference. It’s not that hard to do that and also get your nutrients. I’m not a memorizer or one of the most knowledgeable people on here, just have a bit of discipline and not a micromanager (of diet at least).
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  7. #97
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    I don’t count calories, just eat in stages of “more”, “less”, “about the same” and “IDGAF” with the mirror and pants fit as a reference. It’s not that hard to do that and also get your nutrients. I’m not a memorizer or one of the most knowledgeable people on here, just have a bit of discipline and not a micromanager (of diet at least).
    My follow-up question would be "are you formerly overweight or obese?"

    My problem is that I spent much of my 20s trying to lose weight and putting it back on. Did this many, many times. I was lifting all that time as well (from 24 and until now without interruptions, I am now 30).

    I did lose weight using calorie counting at one point, cut from 235 or so until about 200. People then started with the "you look so thin", "you look like a concentration camp victim" etc., my pressing strength was dropping and I started to miss the "you look strong" and "you look like you drink your milk" comments that you get as a bloatlord, and so I stopped counting calories and the bloating - completely unintentionally - continued.

    I genuinely have an enormous appetite and it's hard to just suppress that pure instinct by intuition unless that intuition is dialed in by years of nutritional discipline.
    Last edited by EiFit91; 06-15-2021 at 01:04 PM.
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  8. #98
    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    My follow-up question would be "are you formerly overweight or obese?"

    My problem is that I spent much of my 20s trying to lose weight and putting it back on. Did this many, many times. I was lifting all that time as well (from 24 and until now without interruptions, I am now 30).

    I did lose weight using calorie counting at one point, cut from 235 or so until about 200. People then started with the "you look so thin", "you look like a concentration camp victim" etc., my pressing strength was dropping and I started to miss the "you look strong" and "you look like you drink your milk" comments that you get as a bloatlord, and so the bloating continued.

    I genuinely have an enormous appetite and it's hard to just suppress that pure instinct by intuition unless that intuition is dialed in by years of nutritional discipline.
    No, never was obese or overweight. I do have a large appetite which led me to eat a lot when I was younger, but I was also a lot more active with sports activity in addition to lifting weights (just my experience anecdotally, not looking to enter the TDEE debate).

    Now I just consciously eat less and don’t freak out when I decide to stuff my face.
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  9. #99
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    My follow-up question would be "are you formerly overweight or obese?"

    My problem is that I spent much of my 20s trying to lose weight and putting it back on. Did this many, many times. I was lifting all that time as well (from 24 and until now without interruptions, I am now 30).

    I did lose weight using calorie counting at one point, cut from 235 or so until about 200. People then started with the "you look so thin", "you look like a concentration camp victim" etc., my pressing strength was dropping and I started to miss the "you look strong" and "you look like you drink your milk" comments that you get as a bloatlord, and so I stopped counting calories and the bloating - completely unintentionally - continued.

    I genuinely have an enormous appetite and it's hard to just suppress that pure instinct by intuition unless that intuition is dialed in by years of nutritional discipline.

    I was obese in high school (from a BF% point of view), but basically right at the cutoff for being 'overweight'. I was probably around 28% BF or so
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  10. #100
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    I was obese in high school (from a BF% point of view), but basically right at the cutoff for being 'overweight'. I was probably around 28% BF or so
    Interesting. How old were you when the eating disorder happened, and was it something that happened during a "cutting" phase?

    In high school I think I was like 175-180 lbs and probably low 20s BF%, but I was lifting 4 times a week and walking 3 miles home from school every day. After I stopped lifting at 18 and got my driver's license, I quickly got up to 200 lbs in about a year. So there has to be a point where I get a large TDEE increase from activity!
    Last edited by EiFit91; 06-15-2021 at 01:24 PM.
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  11. #101
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    Interesting. How old were you when the eating disorder happened, and was it something that happened during a "cutting" phase?

    In high school I was like 180 lbs and probably low 20s BF%, but I was lifting 4 times a week and walking 3 miles home from school every day. After I stopped lifting at 18 and got my driver's license, I quickly got up to 200 lbs in about a year. So there has to be a point where I get a large TDEE increase from activity!
    Yeah so, I was at a high BF during a couple periods: 12-14, then 15-17 1/2. I slimmed out at age 14 when I got a biiiiig growth spurt, but it came back thereafter and I was a big softy =o)

    And yes, my ED as essentially initiated by a cut.

    I reduced my calories and lost about 65lb in 6 months about half way through my senior year of high school because I wanted to 'reinvent' myself for college... I went from about 185-190lb to 123lb at my all time lowest then... and I was my same height: 6-foot.

    At the same time I was lifting, doing a lot of cardio and obsessive movement... and I just got addicted to managing my bodyfat to be as low as humanly possible.

    I actually looked pretty good when I got to 160-165lb, but I just couldn't let go of the habit.

    Ever since, I have never gotten back over 175lb.... but im trying to now

    The rest is history.
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  12. #102
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Yeah so, I was at a high BF during a couple periods: 12-14, then 15-17 1/2. I slimmed out at age 14 when I got a biiiiig growth spurt, but it came back thereafter and I was a big softy =o)

    And yes, my ED as essentially initiated by a cut.

    I reduced my calories and lost about 65lb in 6 months about half way through my senior year of high school because I wanted to 'reinvent' myself for college... I went from about 185-190lb to 123lb at my all time lowest then... and I was my same height: 6-foot.

    At the same time I was lifting, doing a lot of cardio and obsessive movement... and I just got addicted to managing my bodyfat to be as low as humanly possible.

    I actually looked pretty good when I got to 160-165lb, but I just couldn't let go of the habit.

    Ever since, I have never gotten back over 175lb.... but im trying to now

    The rest is history.
    When I got to the point of trying to cut past my "old fat" in April (going below 175 lbs, so trying to go below the bodyweight I was at 17-18), my body started fighting me. Hunger just went way up. It was not hard at all to go from 235 to 175, but when I got past that threshold it just became exponentially harder to be in a calorie deficit. I have been cursing myself for this, but considering your story I should maybe thank my stupid body instead.

    So now I just have to slowly increase my lean mass and consider 175 lbs as the lowest weight I can realistically sustain. I may be able to go further after a long break, but right now I just don't want to cut for a while.

    So you cannot get above 175 and I cannot get below it...
    Last edited by EiFit91; 06-15-2021 at 01:54 PM.
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  13. #103
    Train hard play harder Tommy W.'s Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    When I got to the point of trying to cut past my "old fat" in April (going below 175 lbs, so trying to go below the bodyweight I was at 17-18), my body started fighting me. Hunger just went way up. It was not hard at all to go from 235 to 175, but when I got past that threshold it just became exponentially harder to be in a calorie deficit. I have been cursing myself for this, but considering your story I should maybe thank my stupid body instead.

    So now I just have to slowly increase my lean mass and consider 175 lbs as the lowest weight I can realistically sustain. I may be able to go further after a long break, but right now I just don't want to cut for a while.

    So you cannot get above 175 and I cannot get below it...
    This is common and why people aren't walking around at 10%. There is a balance of what is comfortable to maintain and what is the leanest you're willing to go
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    In both of your experiences, how fast/consistent was the weight loss after the initial water weight stuff?

    I'm looking to cut hard for 8 weeks and see how much I can lose before resuming my strength training. I know you can take an average over the whole cut, but did the math really line up for 1lb/~3,500 calories on a week by week basis?
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    In both of your experiences, how fast/consistent was the weight loss after the initial water weight stuff?

    I'm looking to cut hard for 8 weeks and see how much I can lose before resuming my strength training. I know you can take an average over the whole cut, but did the math really line up for 1lb/~3,500 calories?
    Don't remember exactly, but it was something like this: First I cut 2 lbs a week (from 235-200), then 1.5 lbs a week (from 200-190 maybe), then 1 lbs a week until 183 lbs. I then slowly "recomped" my way from 183 to 175 from December-April, and then the body protest thing happened. So expect to lose the majority of the weight you will lose relatively early, and then it becomes more and more of a grind the leaner you get.

    TDEE was about 2850 when I was 200 lbs and not very active apart from the lifting. It went down to 2650 at about 180 lbs. Now it seems to have settled at 2750 at like 177 lbs with the net upregulated activity but that estimate is still bouncing around.

    I think it's TommyW who usually says you should expect a 100 calorie drop for every 10 lbs you drop. For me it seems accurate.

    I was losing strength when I was cutting fast on a bad routine and not fully dialed in diet. When I dialed in everything, I was able to make substantial strength gains even in a deficit (from December-April). That "recomp window" closed when I got to 17.5% body fat (Adam's estimate). I think I recomped a bit further after that (my waist size dropped a bit from April to May and I looked slightly leaner) but I now seem to need a surplus to be able to progress consistently. I can probably still progress without a surplus but way slower.

    The math for 3500 calories per pound worked like clockwork for me, but NOT on a weekly basis. On a monthly basis. You can go 2 weeks + without noticeably dropping weight even in a substantial deficit. But if you know your TDEE now, I would drop calories a little lower than the math suggests. Some will experience a bit of "metabolic adaptation" from being in a deficit and there will be some NEAT downregulation.
    Last edited by EiFit91; 06-15-2021 at 02:49 PM.
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    When I got to the point of trying to cut past my "old fat" in April (going below 175 lbs, so trying to go below the bodyweight I was at 17-18), my body started fighting me. Hunger just went way up. It was not hard at all to go from 235 to 175, but when I got past that threshold it just became exponentially harder to be in a calorie deficit. I have been cursing myself for this, but considering your story I should maybe thank my stupid body instead.

    So now I just have to slowly increase my lean mass and consider 175 lbs as the lowest weight I can realistically sustain. I may be able to go further after a long break, but right now I just don't want to cut for a while.

    So you cannot get above 175 and I cannot get below it...
    Oh i can get up to 175 and even past it... and I will


    But this is the anorexia genetics and how they work.

    When my body starts 'fighting' me, as you put it, my brain does something different... it reacts by almost feeding on that struggle and creating new mental reward center pathways which are, in some strange way, enjoyable to exploit via continued restriction...

    You might compare it to how athletes fight through pain to accomplish a goal... they thrive on that... it's addicting. Same thing for anorexics and food restriction/control.
    Last edited by AdamWW; 06-15-2021 at 03:18 PM.
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  17. #107
    Clearly Irrational blue9steel's Avatar
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    There have been a number of studies that show there is a huge amount of variability in NEAT response. Example review:

    Resistance To Weight Gain During Overfeeding: A Neat Explanation: "The range of change in NEAT in their subjects was
    large, varying from -98 to +692 kcal/day"

    I've heard a number of coaches talk that have mentioned significant client variability in terms of response to lowering or increasing calories. I suspect there is a large genetic variability component with some folks responding much more than others.

    Anecdotally my TDEE does seem to go up when I increase activity, but it's often not as much as would be expected and there is usually some adaptation after a few months that lowers it more but it's always still been a significant positive increase.
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    Gaintaining Mrpb's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    Now that exercise no longer affects TDEE, should we just recommend people to use a multiplier of 1?
    While I'm not sure if you're really interested in an answer to this question, it does get a proper answer in the podcast with Herman Pontzer that I linked to.

    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=180553633
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