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  1. #1
    Registered User GeneralSerpant's Avatar
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    Completely fasted training vs Carbs only

    Will training with only carbs only in the morning have a systematic effect on your apparent fat loss levels, or even theoretical muscle tissue levels?

    No protein, no fat. Interest is for fasted training or stronger training and with only slight appetite for carbs, but fat loss is not an issue either, thus the dilemma. So while I'm not really worried about losing muscle this time for instance, I'm curious about this as a conscious practice, ending up with a calorie deficit at the end of the day but .7 protein and adequate lipids.

    Specifically, I hypothesize that the carbs begin to enrich your bloodstream preventing fat loss as a result of your exercising-deficit, but without the protein you're technically in the red with mps at that moment. I'm kind of cloudy on if the lack of protein is any type of concern, though I just feel that the carbs are gonna mainly serve to prevent fat loss without as strong muscle development. Orrrr, if there is a considerable fat loss even when eating the carbs, it will exacerbate training more intensely in a deficient state leading to more volatile muscle loss depending on net deficit.

    Thakns.
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    Registered User misterblick's Avatar
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    I've done both and haven't seen much of a difference. During the winter I'd have a protein shake (whey, silk, oats, banana) before the morning workout and lately I've been just having coffee and no-calc BCAA powder in water.

    I actually prefer fasted exercise and then having a shake afterwards. I tend to get really hungry afterwards and the "pre-shakes" would sometimes irritate my stomach mid workout.
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    Train hard play harder Tommy W.'s Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GeneralSerpant View Post
    Will training with only carbs only in the morning have a systematic effect on your apparent fat loss levels, or even theoretical muscle tissue levels?

    No protein, no fat. Interest is for fasted training or stronger training and with only slight appetite for carbs, but fat loss is not an issue either, thus the dilemma. So while I'm not really worried about losing muscle this time for instance, I'm curious about this as a conscious practice, ending up with a calorie deficit at the end of the day but .7 protein and adequate lipids.

    Specifically, I hypothesize that the carbs begin to enrich your bloodstream preventing fat loss as a result of your exercising-deficit, but without the protein you're technically in the red with mps at that moment. I'm kind of cloudy on if the lack of protein is any type of concern, though I just feel that the carbs are gonna mainly serve to prevent fat loss without as strong muscle development. Orrrr, if there is a considerable fat loss even when eating the carbs, it will exacerbate training more intensely in a deficient state leading to more volatile muscle loss depending on net deficit.

    Thakns.
    it doesn’t matter. Working out doesn’t just start eating stored fat while you’re doing it.
    Fatloss is a product of a consistent weekly calorie deficit over time. Meal timing and macro timing have nothing to do with it
    If you don't get what you want you didn't want it bad enough
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    Registered User GeneralSerpant's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by misterblick View Post
    I actually prefer fasted exercise and then having a shake afterwards. I tend to get really hungry afterwards and the "pre-shakes" would sometimes irritate my stomach mid workout.
    That's actually a good deal of why I'll go fasted, in part just a matter of saving consumption for more satisfying meals later.

    Nonetheless they are, what feels like, two different modes of training. I also wouldn't be thinking about it so much if there was protein in the other option just fyi.
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    Registered User GeneralSerpant's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by medwinsusilo View Post
    agree fasting is the best !!
    I don't believe it is actually. It's actually quite not the best if we're being frank here.
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    Registered User AncientYouth's Avatar
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    50+ years and still they seek a magic bullet....................do the work
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    Registered User GeneralSerpant's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AncientYouth View Post
    50+ years and still they seek a magic bullet....................do the work
    I do plenty of work. negged.
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    Registered User AncientYouth's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GeneralSerpant View Post
    I do plenty of work. negged.
    feelings hurt bro? oh dear .
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    Registered User XinXom's Avatar
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    Workout in the evening can tell almost no difference between fasted carbs protein etc pre workout. What seems to actually matter is the overall intake and overall deficit/ surplus in the 2-3 days leading up to any given lift. Our bodies are good at evening things out I would simply do whatever feels more comfortable.
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    Registered User GeneralSerpant's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AncientYouth View Post
    feelings hurt bro? oh dear .
    As a matter of fact they are!

    Sorry will get you back on recharge, but I'm gonna have to keep it at half deduction for the slight. Can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen.
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    Registered User GeneralSerpant's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by XinXom View Post
    Workout in the evening can tell almost no difference between fasted carbs protein etc pre workout. What seems to actually matter is the overall intake and overall deficit/ surplus in the 2-3 days leading up to any given lift. Our bodies are good at evening things out I would simply do whatever feels more comfortable.
    Interesting! 2-3 days huh!

    I agree with your scenario about evening workouts. Just to be clear, you're talking about technical fasting of like 3 hours? or no it's like 6-8 PM and you haven't had anything to eat literally since at least morning and are about to go deadlifting at the gym? For the record, my only real consideration for fasting is insofar as I'm incorporating it, which is morning training on an empty stomach. These are the dynamics of modulated energy training that I'm interested in I believe since doing anything in the morning typically is going to give you the an unfettered observation to draw from. That being said I'm not only working out in the morning, but training tends to be consistent within the week and between. I also like to include protein for fasted training since it has no effect on workout energy, though I will like to use it as a safety net to train harder if just for my own placebo. These cases are without protein though so no fret.

    As far as 2-3 days, that rings a bell. For instance if I take a sudden crash in my diet while training day to day, that sounds like a good estimate for when my body can't really ignore the change. And it doesn't have to be that drastic to notice it, but I will just not get my calories in by the appropriate times, and things will tend to slip in my case. This case in particular of mine has to do with an expected deficit by the end of the day, so it's kinda one side of a gray area.
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    Originally Posted by GeneralSerpant View Post
    Interesting! 2-3 days huh!

    I agree with your scenario about evening workouts. Just to be clear, you're talking about technical fasting of like 3 hours? or no it's like 6-8 PM and you haven't had anything to eat literally since at least morning and are about to go deadlifting at the gym? For the record, my only real consideration for fasting is insofar as I'm incorporating it, which is morning training on an empty stomach. These are the dynamics of modulated energy training that I'm interested in I believe since doing anything in the morning typically is going to give you the an unfettered observation to draw from. That being said I'm not only working out in the morning, but training tends to be consistent within the week and between. I also like to include protein for fasted training since it has no effect on workout energy, though I will like to use it as a safety net to train harder if just for my own placebo. These cases are without protein though so no fret.

    As far as 2-3 days, that rings a bell. For instance if I take a sudden crash in my diet while training day to day, that sounds like a good estimate for when my body can't really ignore the change. And it doesn't have to be that drastic to notice it, but I will just not get my calories in by the appropriate times, and things will tend to slip in my case. This case in particular of mine has to do with an expected deficit by the end of the day, so it's kinda one side of a gray area.
    I don't workout in the morning but I have lifted without eating all day or since lunch or right before I go in and none of that seems to have any impact on my performance. What does seem to directly corollate to a good lift is how many calories I've eaten in the he last 3 days, how many hours of sleep I've got I the last 3 days and how much extra cardio I've done. So lots of steps super low cals less than 7 hours a night sleep terrible lift no matter if I'm fasted carbs protein doesn't matter. If I have done less steps got more sleep and ate more calories in the last few days I'm about to PR.
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    Registered User GeneralSerpant's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by XinXom View Post
    I don't workout in the morning but I have lifted without eating all day or since lunch or right before I go in and none of that seems to have any impact on my performance. What does seem to directly corollate to a good lift is how many calories I've eaten in the he last 3 days, how many hours of sleep I've got I the last 3 days and how much extra cardio I've done. So lots of steps super low cals less than 7 hours a night sleep terrible lift no matter if I'm fasted carbs protein doesn't matter. If I have done less steps got more sleep and ate more calories in the last few days I'm about to PR.
    Fair enough. The morning/evening dynamic I would say has a lot to do with more subjective factors in difference, but I agree that energy can be a lot more consistent from lunch to dinner. Early can be generally more sluggish but also prove to be more beneficial for practical considerations all over.
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    Originally Posted by GeneralSerpant View Post
    Will training with only carbs only in the morning have a systematic effect on your apparent fat loss levels, or even theoretical muscle tissue levels?

    No protein, no fat. Interest is for fasted training or stronger training and with only slight appetite for carbs, but fat loss is not an issue either, thus the dilemma. So while I'm not really worried about losing muscle this time for instance, I'm curious about this as a conscious practice, ending up with a calorie deficit at the end of the day but .7 protein and adequate lipids.

    Specifically, I hypothesize that the carbs begin to enrich your bloodstream preventing fat loss as a result of your exercising-deficit, but without the protein you're technically in the red with mps at that moment. I'm kind of cloudy on if the lack of protein is any type of concern, though I just feel that the carbs are gonna mainly serve to prevent fat loss without as strong muscle development. Orrrr, if there is a considerable fat loss even when eating the carbs, it will exacerbate training more intensely in a deficient state leading to more volatile muscle loss depending on net deficit.

    Thakns.
    It will make no difference in fat loss if your calorie intake / expenditure doesn't change.

    That being said, if you eat carbs, you might workout harder, which could burn more calories, but you'd have to account for balancing that by reducing from your overall intake because you ate carbs pre-workout.

    It doesn't matter when you consume or expend calories.
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    Registered User GeneralSerpant's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    It will make no difference in fat loss if your calorie intake / expenditure doesn't change.

    That being said, if you eat carbs, you might workout harder, which could burn more calories, but you'd have to account for balancing that by reducing from your overall intake because you ate carbs pre-workout.

    It doesn't matter when you consume or expend calories.
    Thank you adam. I will evaluate your assessment to consider where I might of over thought things specifically.
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    Originally Posted by GeneralSerpant View Post
    Thank you adam. I will evaluate your assessment to consider where I might of over thought things specifically.
    FYI: acute MPS is not the be-all-end-all of net muscle-gain.

    MPS doesn't drop to zero (or go 'in the red') when you train fasted; in fact training alone stimulates MPS with or without protein from a recent meal.

    What really matters is net protein intake over time, though the approach of regular protein feedings does help optimize outcomes.

    Net protein intake being the difference between the rate of muscle breakdown and the rate of muscle synthesis, both happen at the same time every day.

    There is also the concept of protein 'recycling', which is another means of sparing protein for use throughout your body.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    FYI: acute MPS is not the be-all-end-all of net muscle-gain.

    MPS doesn't drop to zero (or go 'in the red') when you train fasted; in fact training alone stimulates MPS with or without protein from a recent meal.

    What really matters is net protein intake over time, though the approach of regular protein feedings does help optimize outcomes.

    Net protein intake being the difference between the rate of muscle breakdown and the rate of muscle synthesis, both happen at the same time every day.

    There is also the concept of protein 'recycling', which is another means of sparing protein for use throughout your body.
    Thanks, that's definitely some news.

    I definitely considered that with no protein there was still coordinative practice training development, learning new movements, or training small/undeveloped muscles. I was mostly though just weary of training too hard.

    Mind though that fasted training is also something I'll tinker with, so I was even considering doing like 2-3 workouts between long cardio and resistance training.
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    Originally Posted by GeneralSerpant View Post
    Thanks, that's definitely some news.

    I definitely considered that with no protein there was still coordinative practice training development, learning new movements, or training small/undeveloped muscles. I was mostly though just weary of training too hard.

    Mind though that fasted training is also something I'll tinker with, so I was even considering doing like 2-3 workouts between long cardio and resistance training.
    Personally I think the most reasonable course of action is to get some kind of protein in after training if you’re lifting fasted, especially if you’re also doing more than one training modality that day.

    You will probably feel if your tank is running low and your energy is suffering.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Personally I think the most reasonable course of action is to get some kind of protein in after training if you’re lifting fasted, especially if you’re also doing more than one training modality that day.

    You will probably feel if your tank is running low and your energy is suffering.
    Indeed. That is something I've paid attention to much when switching to high frequency high volume.
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