Finally 12 straight weeks of lifting done...nothing to show for it lol

[Animal2692]

Is doing squats and hip hinge movements after upper body movements the right thing nowadays? I used to hear you wanna do those first since they're the most taxing but now I hear lower body movements tax your upper body movements more than the other way around. Reason I'm asking is I'm seeing that in a few programs.

[BeginnerGainz]

Is doing squats and hip hinge movements after upper body movements the right thing nowadays? I used to hear you wanna do those first since they're the most taxing but now I hear lower body movements tax your upper body movements more than the other way around. Reason I'm asking is I'm seeing that in a few programs.

I’ve seen, and experienced, that taxing lower body exercises can negatively affect upper body exercises, but the reverse is seldom true.

[WolfRose7]

Is doing squats and hip hinge movements after upper body movements the right thing nowadays? I used to hear you wanna do those first since they're the most taxing but now I hear lower body movements tax your upper body movements more than the other way around. Reason I'm asking is I'm seeing that in a few programs.

Either works
Whatever you want to focus most.

[Filmbuff81]

The debate rages on, I won't do it the justice others have so I'll just refer anyone to the Helms Israetel debates on this..
I'm very much with Helms and your with Israetel on it, and that's okay, we have both found what works for us, for the msot part and thats the main battle.

The debates definitely cover it.

I’m actually in neither camp and think both work just fine.

I just chime in when I see people say you go from wasting your time to burning out.

I think that can happen when people sandbag and then just add sets without thinking, but I think that can happen with helms method too since you spend more time at a higher RPE and that can lead to similar issues just a different way.

Not to say you sandbagged when adding sets; you are obviously knowledgeable and so it just doesn’t work for you, I’m speaking more to general public who look at the suggestions mike was making years ago at the start before refining things or who follow their examples.

Like some weeks no sets will get added or may even go down.

But most people think “MUST ADD SETS” again I’m speaking broadly and not you specifically.

[WolfRose7]

The debates definitely cover it.

I’m actually in neither camp and think both work just fine.

I just chime in when I see people say you go from wasting your time to burning out.

I think that can happen when people sandbag and then just add sets without thinking, but I think that can happen with helms method too since you spend more time at a higher RPE and that can lead to similar issues just a different way.

Not to say you sandbagged when adding sets; you are obviously knowledgeable and so it just doesn’t work for you, I’m speaking more to general public who look at the suggestions mike was making years ago at the start before refining things or who follow their examples.

Like some weeks no sets will get added or may even go down.

But most people think “MUST ADD SETS” again I’m speaking broadly and not you specifically.

I agree, if you are doing it.
Be flexible about the protocol, react to your actual daily and weekly fatigue, progress and life stressors and select when you're adding volume.
Any rigid linear progression protocol is going to be poor for anyone except freaks and rank novices.

[Animal2692]

I'm a big believer in pushing through and if you're feeling fatigued take an extra day off rather than lowering intensity. You're not at the stage where you need to complicate stuff. You need to just grit your teeth and grind your numbers up. Expect it to be hard every time you train with the aim of lifting more. It doesn't matter what progression you use as long as you're progressing but save the rir for when you're more advanced. It's just a recipe for going through the motions

The routine you suggested by the way looks a lot like the novice full body fierce 5 as well. So what I'm going to do is follow the progression scheme from F5 of adding 5lb to upper body and 10lb to lower body every week or add 1-2 reps on the weeks I'm not increasing the weight if I'm increasing it every other week instead. Want to take an arbitrary approach this time to stay away from rir/rpe for a while. I like that cgbp in there way more than doing tricep pressdowns because of the added pec volume.

Workout a
Bench 3x5
Rows 3x5
Squats 3x5
Calf raises 2x20
Dumbbell curls 2x10

Workout b
Overhead press 3x5
Close grip bench 3x8
Pull ups 3x8
Rdl 3x8
Face pulls 2x20

F5:
Workout A
Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
Pendlay Rows 3x8
Face Pulls 3x10
Calf raises 2x15/Tricep pressdowns 2x10 Superset

Workout B
Front Squat 3x5
Overhead Press 3x5
Romanian Deadlift 3x8
Lat Pulldowns 3x8 (any grip)
Ab work 2x15/Bicep curls 2x10 Superset

[air2fakie]

It's like an endless loop of deja vu, but good luck! (seriously)

[Animal2692]

It's like an endless loop of deja vu, but good luck! (seriously)

Care to elaborate lol? I mean yeah I haven't wanted to follow a proven routine or something along those lines for a long time because I wanted to be able to say that I made my own routine and it was a success but in the end, the success matters to me more than a routine being my own, all else would be insanity. I think the main reason with not being able to progress is due to my progression scheme. I probably would just do a lot better using an arbitrary approach with resets (which I've never done). Using ddp and rir/rpe ends up with me either going too hard or not hard enough. The most interesting thing is that I'm not even close to frustrated, these 12 weeks were part of the learning process for me. All I know is that simply giving up and being a non-lifter doesn't sit well with me.

[air2fakie]

Care to elaborate lol? I mean yeah I haven't wanted to follow a proven routine or something along those lines for a long time because I wanted to be able to say that I made my own routine and it was a success but in the end, the success matters to me more than a routine being my own, all else would be insanity. I think the main reason with not being able to progress is due to my progression scheme. I probably would just do a lot better using an arbitrary approach with resets (which I've never done). Using ddp and rir/rpe ends up with me either going too hard or not hard enough. The most interesting thing is that I'm not even close to frustrated, these 12 weeks were part of the learning process for me. All I know is that simply giving up and being a non-lifter doesn't sit well with me.

Kinda self-explanatory, but was referring to the repeating circular arc of your posts and how you always end up back in the same place somehow. I have nothing against F5, but in this case have no idea why you'd circle back to a customization of a program that you've ranted against so much about how it and the progression scheme didn't work for you. Not hating, just was observing.

[Animal2692]

Kinda self-explanatory, but was referring to the repeating circular arc of your posts and how you always end up back in the same place somehow. I have nothing against F5, but in this case have no idea why you'd circle back to a customization of a program that you've ranted against so much about how it and the progression scheme didn't work for you. Not hating, just was observing.

Because when I tried to arbitrarily progress before, that too was done by me in ways that weren't practical such as adding 5lbs to upper body lifts every workout instead of every week like F5 calls for. I mean damn, if I follow a proven routine and say it doesn't work....then it narrows down what I can blame. If I do my own routine, then I can blame my own routine. If I do a proven routine to the T, it would be much harder to blame and I can instead blame diet, it takes out the guess work. I think that when it comes to putting a routine together, I have the right idea when it comes to volume and exercise selection and frequency but when it comes to progression, that's where I **** up. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together can make a split with a frequency of 2x a week and 10 weekly sets. That's why I think that other guy saying I'm not advanced enough to worry about rir and rpe is on to something. I need a practical system to progress or else I get too cocky and go too hard, then jump way to the other end when I end up paying the price for it.

[air2fakie]

Because when I tried to arbitrarily progress before, that too was done by me in ways that weren't practical such as adding 5lbs to upper body lifts every workout instead of every week like F5 calls for. I mean damn, if I follow a proven routine and say it doesn't work....then it narrows down what I can blame. If I do my own routine, then I can blame my own routine. If I do a proven routine to the T, it would be much harder to blame and I can instead blame diet, it takes out the guess work. I think that when it comes to putting a routine together, I have the right idea when it comes to volume and exercise selection and frequency but when it comes to progression, that's where I **** up. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together can make a split with a frequency of 2x a week and 10 weekly sets. That's why I think that other guy saying I'm not advanced enough to worry about rir and rpe is on to something. I need a practical system to progress or else I get too cocky and go too hard, then jump way to the other end when I end up paying the price for it.

I dunno, your thinking repeatedly bounces all over the place. A proven program would be great, and if you think F5 3-day style progression is good for you at this point, give it a shot I guess.

[Filmbuff81]

Maybe you should just try Eric helms novice or intermediate bodybuilding routines.

Both are very good and simple with very good fatigue management built in along with a moderate about of volume and progression.

If you **** them up that’s on you.

Alberto Nunez has a upper/lower split too that is basically like helms’ intermediate but 4 days vs helms’ 5 days L/U/L/P/P/L

[paulinkansas]

Because when I tried to arbitrarily progress before, that too was done by me in ways that weren't practical

WWASD. What Would Adam Sandler Do? He doesn't approve of your progression.

[xuerebx]

The debates definitely cover it.

I’m actually in neither camp and think both work just fine.

I just chime in when I see people say you go from wasting your time to burning out.

I think that can happen when people sandbag and then just add sets without thinking, but I think that can happen with helms method too since you spend more time at a higher RPE and that can lead to similar issues just a different way.

Not to say you sandbagged when adding sets; you are obviously knowledgeable and so it just doesn’t work for you, I’m speaking more to general public who look at the suggestions mike was making years ago at the start before refining things or who follow their examples.

Like some weeks no sets will get added or may even go down.

But most people think “MUST ADD SETS” again I’m speaking broadly and not you specifically.

How would you know when to add sets? I don't think I'd be able to gauge if I need/can add sets this particular week.

[MyEgoProblem]

DDP.
A Great tool for supplemental or accessories that are just extra work.
Not great in general for everything.

Ideally rpe audits where done to ensure accuracy and proximity to failure. And technique was appropriate for targeting the intended muscle.

[SuffolkPunch]

It would have been better if you did AMRAP with 185 - then you would know your true RIR. Nothing magic about 10 reps. I bet you could have got 15-18...

If you do follow a routine like Greyskull, you'll actually find it less exhausting to do high RPE with lower reps - even though the weight is heavier.

Just in case you missed it

A rep calculator shows that 11 x 205 would be equivalent to 16 x 185 ... which confirms what I guessed.

So you could have 6 reps in reserve when you thought it was only 1 or 2... that would explain a lot.

[Filmbuff81]

How would you know when to add sets? I don't think I'd be able to gauge if I need/can add sets this particular week.

You base it off a few factors including how easy a session or exercise felt, did you feel the target muscle working, how’s recovery feeling afterwards. I.e. were you sore longer than normal.

Basically if it felt too easy add a set next week

too hard? Consider dropping a set.

Everything felt just tough enough? Don’t add anything and continue on and try adding some reps and/or load.

It requires you to be in tune with your body and accurate with RPE/RIR.

I liken it to a macro version of fatigue stops

Rather than looking to do sets until your RPE climbs within a session and then you stop, you’re basically looking to add sets weekly to aid in adding volume.

I’m being incredibly broad of course, just trying to give an idea.

Whenever someone wants to try set progression I suggest they just start with a moderate amount of volume and don’t even bother adding sets.

Get used to decreasing RIR week to week and see how that goes first.

Maybe final week of a meso add a few sets if some stuff was feeling really easy.

[Filmbuff81]

Just in case you missed it

A rep calculator shows that 11 x 205 would be equivalent to 16 x 185 ... which confirms what I guessed.

So you could have 6 reps in reserve when you thought it was only 1 or 2... that would explain a lot.

Animal refuses to believe his RPE gauge is completely off.

I’ve harped on this particular point for months now.

[Animal2692]

So on squats, I got 205 for 8 which had to be around 9.5 because my last rep was slow as hell and I was 99% sure I'd fail the 9th. That comes out to 185 for 12 via a calculator which means I was leaving 2 in the tank when I was doing 185 for 10. Before I went to 205 for 8, I was at 195 for 10, ~rpe 9. The one rep max for both of those is a difference of 6lbs but if I did 195 for 11, the one rep max would only differ by a pound or so.

Other than that, my other lifts were pretty accurate especially for seated db press and db bench. I was benching 70s for 8 with the last rep taking me 4 seconds or so. Seated pressing 50s for 8 and then I got 10 reps on a day I was feeling good. On flat db bench, I've been doing 70s for 8 for the past 4 weeks except for this week, hardly being able to add a rep or anything.

Here's what I don't get. I hear that if you do higher reps such as 8-10, that it's easier to add a rep than it is adding a rep to a set of 5. But then I hear that it's easier to add a rep to a set of 5 than it is to a set of 9 because 5 will build more strength lol

[Animal2692]

Animal refuses to believe his RPE gauge is completely off.

I’ve harped on this particular point for months now.

Suffolk is going off of me doing 205 for 11 but I only got 8 with 205. So there's no way I can be doing 185 for 16 and leaving 6 in the tank by doing 10 reps. It's more like 2 in reserve. I was doing 195 for 10 before I went to 205 for 8. If you take the one rep max for all of those three, it comes out to be 254-260lbs. I get what he was trying to say...that's it's easy to not go hard enough on squats since they're difficult but the numbers I got don't verify that as being the issue. This is why I don't think my rpe gauge was off to cause me to not train hard enough to progress.

[Filmbuff81]

Suffolk is going off of me doing 205 for 11 but I only got 8 with 205. So there's no way I can be doing 185 for 16 and leaving 6 in the tank by doing 10 reps. It's more like 2 in reserve. I was doing 195 for 10 before I went to 205 for 8. If you take the one rep max for all of those three, it comes out to be 254-260lbs. This is why I don't think my rpe gauge was off to cause me to not train hard enough to progress.

I’ve seen your videos, your technique isn’t the greatest which in turn means your RIR/RPE will be thrown off too.

So I stand by the fact you “think” and “feel” something is tougher than it really is.

I’m basing this on the videos where you claimed you used to go to failure btw.

So if your failure was really like an rpe 7 (which I maintain it was) then your RPE 8 is really a 5-6, which completely lines up with what Suffolk is saying.

I think you need to fix your form for 1, which will help your overall gauging of rpe.

Edit: like something is clearly going off the rails

You gained 10lbs of weight, so there must be some muscle gain. But you struggle to add even reps to something.

This is why I suggested posting in your training journal so people could actually see what you’re doing and give some more accurate suggestions.

And what I mean by your form is that it’s “fine” I the sense you’re not gonna mess yourself up, but when I see you lift it just looks like you’re trying to move weight instead of work muscle.

[Animal2692]

I’ve seen your videos, your technique isn’t the greatest which in turn means your RIR/RPE will be thrown off too.

So I stand by the fact you “think” and “feel” something is tougher than it really is.

I’m basing this on the videos where you claimed you used to go to failure btw.

So if your failure was really like an rpe 7 (which I maintain it was) then your RPE 8 is really a 5-6, which completely lines up with what Suffolk is saying.

I think you need to fix your form for 1, which will help your overall gauging of rpe.

Edit: like something is clearly going off the rails

You gained 10lbs of weight, so there must be some muscle gain. But you struggle to add even reps to something.

This is why I suggested posting in your training journal so people could actually see what you’re doing and give some more accurate suggestions.

And what I mean by your form is that it’s “fine” I the sense you’re not gonna mess yourself up, but when I see you lift it just looks like you’re trying to move weight instead of work muscle.

Well that's why I'm taking a more arbitrary approach by using F5's progression scheme for that full body 3x a week routine posted by paul to take out the guess work from rpe. And I guess if I fail a lift more than twice in a row, I'm supposed to take 15% off and build back up again which isn't really a deload? F5 doesn't say much on deloading. Maybe you're supposed to deload after resetting and failing again after building back up?

I don't quite get the point of amrap sets in greyskull and gzclp. I can see how it's useful during a reset but other than that, won't the third set of a lift eventually become an amrap set anyways due to cumulative fatigue after so many weight increases since you can't add weight each week forever? For example, you're doing 3x5 bench. You add 5lbs to it every week. You're able to do all three sets across with some reps left in the tank on that last set but sooner or later, the weight is going to get so heavy that the third set ends up being to failure and then the week after that when you have to add weight again (since you reached the reps), you'll get 3 or 4 reps on that last set so then you need to reset. But technically the week before that, the last set ended up being amrap. So why purposely do amrap on the third set when you'll eventually get there anyways?

[Filmbuff81]

Well that's why I'm taking a more arbitrary approach by using F5's progression scheme for that full body 3x a week routine posted by paul to take out the guess work from rpe. And I guess if I fail a lift more than twice in a row, I'm supposed to take 15% off and build back up again which isn't really a deload? F5 doesn't say much on deloading. Maybe you're supposed to deload after resetting and failing again after building back up?

I don't quite get the point of amrap sets in greyskull and gzclp. I can see how it's useful during a reset but other than that, won't the third set of a lift eventually become an amrap set anyways due to cumulative fatigue after so many weight increases since you can't add weight each week forever? For example, you're doing 3x5 bench. You add 5lbs to it every week. You're able to do all three sets across with some reps left in the tank on that last set but sooner or later, the weight is going to get so heavy that the third set ends up being to failure and then the week after that when you have to add weight again (since you reached the reps), you'll get 3 or 4 reps on that last set so then you need to reset. But technically the week before that, the last set ended up being amrap. So why purposely do amrap on the third set when you'll eventually get there anyways?

AMRAP in greyskull are a method of periodization and a way to show progress when you need to reset by aiming to beat previous numbers, which in turn is a motivator.

Let’s say for arguments sake you go in AMRAP sets.

100x12
110x13
120x10
130x11
140 - you can’t hit minim reps, so you need to reset

Then you go

100x13
110x14
120x12
130x13
140x9

You’ve now hit 5 weeks of rep PRs and progressed past a plateau.

Also knocking 15% off your weights should definitely feel like a deload.



Next time you

[air2fakie]

Dude this is what I meant earlier by deja vu. Every couple months is the same thing, Why no progress - 5 pages debating problem - You identifying problem and discovering solution - You going back and doing some tweaked program. Repeat.

I'm not going to get into a debate about it, but the AMRAP set is the moneymaker in a program like Greyskull and actually fits your personality. That being said, you don't have to do it.

Do your other program with the F5 progression for a couple months. If you like it, great. But if you're about to do post another "no progress" thread, try Greyskull for the same. Like it, great - but if "no progress", try GZCLP. Repeat for other programs recommended to you by folks on here whether Westside, BB Med, Candito. Try Vikings, AllPro if it makes you feel better to go thru the stickied stuff.

Normally I don't recommend constant program hopping, but eventually you'll find one where you don't feel you need to post a "no progress" thread. You've been spinning wheels for years so at worst, you'll be back where you would've been with your own programming. But I suspect you'll make progress at some point - on the bar and/or in the mirror.

I mean all the above in a constructive manner in case it gets you to stop trying to outthink every real program.

[Filmbuff81]

Dude this is what I meant earlier by deja vu. Every couple months is the same thing, Why no progress - 5 pages debating problem - You identifying problem and discovering solution - You going back and doing some tweaked program. Repeat.

I'm not going to get into a debate about it, but the AMRAP set is the moneymaker in a program like Greyskull and actually fits your personality. That being said, you don't have to do it.

Do your other program with the F5 progression for a couple months. If you like it, great. But if you're about to do post another "no progress" thread, try Greyskull for the same. Like it, great - but if "no progress", try GZCLP. Repeat for other programs recommended to you by folks on here whether Westside, BB Med, Candito. Try Vikings, AllPro if it makes you feel better to go thru the stickied stuff.

Normally I don't recommend constant program hopping, but eventually you'll find one where you don't feel you need to post a "no progress" thread. You've been spinning wheels for years so at worst, you'll be back where you would've been with your own programming. But I suspect you'll make progress at some point - on the bar and/or in the mirror.

I mean all the above in a constructive manner in case it gets you to stop trying to outthink every real program.

All of this plus as I mentioned you’ve gained 10lbs in 12 weeks. Unless you completely **** the bed nutritionally, you have gained muscle.

Wasn’t that the entire purpose?

Physique changes don’t just appear over night or in 12 weeks.

I’ve been labouring on basically a 6 month cut with a couple of quick “diet breaks” and only the last while would I say the progress is super evident in the mirror.

You need massive patience with physique training.

[MyEgoProblem]

All of this plus as I mentioned you’ve gained 10lbs in 12 weeks . Unless you completely **** the bed nutritionally, you have gained muscle.

Wasn’t that the entire purpose?

Physique changes don’t just appear over night or in 12 weeks.

I’ve been labouring on basically a 6 month cut with a couple of quick “diet breaks” and only the last while would I say the progress is super evident in the mirror.

You need massive patience with physique training.

Just bolding for emphasis...

Ten lbs.. In 12weeks.
if we assume around the und half of that is muscle..

That's 5lbs Spread over the whole body
Legs, ass, back, chest, shoulders, arms

With 5lbs of fat spread over the same parts.. How different do people expect to look?

We need before and after pictures Pictures taken like for like, site measurements and some consistent bf% measurements to really guage if there is 'nothing to show for it'

Size is easy, it's just slow. No one anyone knows who looks good (without skittles) hasn't lifed consistently for many years.
12weeks out of 52 this year.. Stringing together lots of 12+ weeks blocks of YEARS without quitting is the way.

Some blocks yield more, some less.
12weeks is a decent run on any program. Even if you think progress was slow, if you ****ed up your proximity to failure or with inefficient tech not stimulating what you thought or just didn't do enough hard sets at all..

None of that is to say you didn't hugely potentiate the next block of training gains.

[xuerebx]

You base it off a few factors including how easy a session or exercise felt, did you feel the target muscle working, how’s recovery feeling afterwards. I.e. were you sore longer than normal.

Basically if it felt too easy add a set next week

too hard? Consider dropping a set.

Everything felt just tough enough? Don’t add anything and continue on and try adding some reps and/or load.

It requires you to be in tune with your body and accurate with RPE/RIR.

I liken it to a macro version of fatigue stops

Rather than looking to do sets until your RPE climbs within a session and then you stop, you’re basically looking to add sets weekly to aid in adding volume.

I’m being incredibly broad of course, just trying to give an idea.

Whenever someone wants to try set progression I suggest they just start with a moderate amount of volume and don’t even bother adding sets.

Get used to decreasing RIR week to week and see how that goes first.

Maybe final week of a meso add a few sets if some stuff was feeling really easy.

Thanks for expanding on this. I may try adding a set on some exercises which feel easier over time (not many I can think of, to be honest, since I am also either increasing reps or load). I don't really use RPE/RIR in my training and use AMRAPS to autoregulate, but I think I can still apply the above methodology.

If adding sets is part of your normal methodology... training at the end of your meso must have a sh*t tonne of volume!

[Animal2692]

Just bolding for emphasis...

Ten lbs.. In 12weeks.
if we assume around the und half of that is muscle..

That's 5lbs Spread over the whole body
Legs, ass, back, chest, shoulders, arms

With 5lbs of fat spread over the same parts.. How different do people expect to look?

We need before and after pictures Pictures taken like for like, site measurements and some consistent bf% measurements to really guage if there is 'nothing to show for it'

Size is easy, it's just slow. No one anyone knows who looks good (without skittles) hasn't lifed consistently for many years.
12weeks out of 52 this year.. Stringing together lots of 12+ weeks blocks of YEARS without quitting is the way.

Some blocks yield more, some less.
12weeks is a decent run on any program. Even if you think progress was slow, if you ****ed up your proximity to failure or with inefficient tech not stimulating what you thought or just didn't do enough hard sets at all..

None of that is to say you didn't hugely potentiate the next block of training gains.

No exposed legs in either of these pics and the after pic was after a workout so there's a slight pump.
Before: https://ibb.co/S7QsjbW
After: https://ibb.co/Kmgj29p

Would it be possible if someone took the full body novice version of F5 and applied the intermediate progression scheme to it from the U/L split? All I see different in the intermediate version is more accessory movements and weight is added bi-weekly instead of weekly.

[iabs]

It's funny, could be genetics or lack of intensity/ proper diet?

I touch a weight and blow the fuk up. (srs)

[WolfRose7]

No exposed legs in either of these pics and the after pic was after a workout so there's a slight pump.
Before: https://ibb.co/S7QsjbW
After: https://ibb.co/Kmgj29p

Would it be possible if someone took the full body novice version of F5 and applied the intermediate progression scheme to it from the U/L split? All I see different in the intermediate version is more accessory movements and weight is added bi-weekly instead of weekly.

You're going to run into the same issues as any program without some form of auto regulation.

But you can try it and see how it goes.