Cut or bulk

[safcpaul]

So I started skinny fat and started training (properly) about a year ago. Been completely disciplined following progressive overload and eating to grow. I'm carrying excess fat as I decided to focus on muscle growth first rather than cut as I had nothing to cut too. I'm deciding whether to carry on bulking for another 6 month to get more muscle on or whether I would look decent enough to cut now? I'm currently 198lbs and think if I dropped to about 170 then that would put me at about 12 percent bf? Correct me if I'm wrong. Or should I keep slowly bulking to 210lbs and then I could maybe cut to 180lbs from then. My question isn't whether I'm carrying excess fat, it is whether I should look at the bigger picture and continue gaining muscle because I would not be happy if I'm going to cut and look skinny at the end of it. Current lifts are 190lbs bench x5, back squat 270 x5, ohp 135 x 5 , good mornings 250 x 8.
Current pics
http://imgur.com/a/kaTD3S3

[EiFit91]

So I started skinny fat and started training (properly) about a year ago. Been completely disciplined following progressive overload and eating to grow. I'm carrying excess fat as I decided to focus on muscle growth first rather than cut as I had nothing to cut too. I'm deciding whether to carry on bulking for another 6 month to get more muscle on or whether I would look decent enough to cut now? I'm currently 198lbs and think if I dropped to about 170 then that would put me at about 12 percent bf? Correct me if I'm wrong. Or should I keep slowly bulking to 210lbs and then I could maybe cut to 180lbs from then. My question isn't whether I'm carrying excess fat, it is whether I should look at the bigger picture and continue gaining muscle because I would not be happy if I'm going to cut and look skinny at the end of it. Current lifts are 190lbs bench x5, back squat 270 x5, ohp 135 x 5 , good mornings 250 x 8.
Current pics
http://imgur.com/a/kaTD3S3

If you don't want to cut you can focus on muscle growth, but I don't think it's necessary to overfeed at your size. You could probably progress on maintenance calories as well.

It's just a guessing game at this point where you would end up at 12%, but for most people it's going to be lower than their initial estimate. I think you will look decent after a cut, you have good mass on your shoulders and back. Whether you will personally be happy is a different question though...

[safcpaul]

If you don't want to cut you can focus on muscle growth, but I don't think it's necessary to overfeed at your size. You could probably progress on maintenance calories as well.

It's just a guessing game at this point where you would end up at 12%, but for most people it's going to be lower than their initial estimate. I think you will look decent after a cut, you have good mass on your shoulders and back. Whether you will personally be happy is a different question though...

Thanks for the reply mate I appreciate it. You've got me leaning towards a cut to be honest and finding out how much lbm I actually do have. It's the mind f**k of cutting where I'll see myself getting smaller and I'll doubt my decision lol. As for your comment on my shoulders and back, that means a lot because ive put an emphasis on them (especially my back) and they're the exercises I'm strongest on so it means it has paid off

[EiFit91]

Thanks for the reply mate I appreciate it. You've got me leaning towards a cut to be honest and finding out how much lbm I actually do have. It's the mind f**k of cutting where I'll see myself getting smaller and I'll doubt my decision lol. As for your comment on my shoulders and back, that means a lot because ive put an emphasis on them (especially my back) and they're the exercises I'm strongest on so it means it has paid off

One possible compromise may be to do a slow recomp, just losing very slowly to the point of almost not noticing you are in a deficit. I am currently doing that as I struggle with maintaining anything else than a small deficit these days... the drawback is that it will take a lot more time than cutting.

[safcpaul]

One possible compromise may be to do a slow recomp, just losing very slowly to the point of almost not noticing you are in a deficit. I am currently doing that as I struggle with maintaining anything else than a small deficit these days... the drawback is that it will take a lot more time than cutting.

I think that's what I'll do. I'll start in a very small deficit and see if I can still add to my lifts. If I can't I'll make the deficit slightly bigger and just try maintain my lifts. You've got great definition in your back by the way mate

[EliKoehn]

I'd recommend the gradual bulk. Better get big and strong with some fat to lose than trim down and get stuck spinning your wheels.

Ultimately up to you and where you want to end up.

[EiFit91]

I'd recommend the gradual bulk. Better get big and strong with some fat to lose than trim down and get stuck spinning your wheels.

Ultimately up to you and where you want to end up.

Why do you think spinning wheels is more likely when recomping?

[safcpaul]

I'd recommend the gradual bulk. Better get big and strong with some fat to lose than trim down and get stuck spinning your wheels.

Ultimately up to you and where you want to end up.

Where I want to end up is to be lean with a decent amount of size. I've started cutting the last week. Still going to fight to get lifts up when cutting (if possible) and then I was thinking a nice 6 month bulk after from a leanish start point and then I should be able to cut again for the following summer. Do you think I should have stuck with bulking and just cut for next summer?

[EliKoehn]

Why do you think spinning wheels is more likely when recomping?

We've had essentially this same conversation before. I take this position for one primary reason: all else being equal, lean mass counts for more positively than fat does negatively. It is harder to achieve than fat is to lose, supplies the metabolic base for the caloric maintenance one must observe in the process of losing it, and is attained above meager levels only by a surplus unless the individual in question is relatively untrained overall.

Again, this is a school of thought thing. I doubt it really matters in the long run (insofar as any of this ultimately does) as long as OP is following the basic principles with diligence and consistency, since the approach can simply be modified if it's not working after enough time has passed. Along with everyone else, I am a work in progress and my position tends towards shortcomings, as does the opposing camp, but I do endorse this view as I think it is better overall.

The advice to avoid any kind of surplus at OP's weight seems a little wrong-footed to me, personally. He's not even especially overweight and certainly not obese. If the end goal is to be big, and he commits to a modest surplus and trains hard for a while and gains some substantial, quality mass, even if he ends up putting on 5 pounds of fat, what is that? Three, four weeks of cutting at a rather humane deficit? That's truly not something to caution fear towards when you're gaining commensurate, quality mass along with it. So I see advising an approach that doesn't allow for significant hypertophy to occur in the first place as spinning wheels, if the goal is to get big.

Where I want to end up is to be lean with a decent amount of size. I've started cutting the last week. Still going to fight to get lifts up when cutting (if possible) and then I was thinking a nice 6 month bulk after from a leanish start point and then I should be able to cut again for the following summer. Do you think I should have stuck with bulking and just cut for next summer?

How do you define "decent amount of size"? Lean is pretty objective (12-18% I would say most would agree on as a healthy range you can subsist in long-term), but size is harder to standardize, I think. From person to person it varies quite a bit due to things like skeletal height and frame, but also the aesthetic you're wanting - as "size" and "lean" are variables fighting for a balance at the expense of the other, generally. Big dudes who fill up their shirts imposingly usually lack definition and don't look great with them off, and those who get impressively lean even if relatively small and look like a statue from antiquity usually can't project that appearance unless their shirt is off. Both are pretty clearly desirable physiques, all things considered. Up to you what you want.

I would say, it looks like your chest is lagging behind a little. Your shoulders and biceps are looking good IMO, but if you want an overall big physique, I'd give that some solid focus. From the one photo I'm not sure about back or legs but I did want to comment that you might find yourself disappointed if you take an approach that cuts off your growth for a while.

If you want my personal take, I would recommend the long, slow bulk. The only caution I would give (and am speaking here from my own careless mistake here) is to make sure you actually do not exceed a modest surplus.

[Tommy W.]

Look in the mirror. What bothers you most, having too much fat or not having the amount of muscle you want. Work on which ever one will satisfy your needs.

Personally, I’d cut for awhile then go into a very small surplus and add muscle and as little fat as possible then if I see I’m starting to look a little soft again I’d cut for a short time to lean out again. The key when adding muscle is to never let the fat creep back on to the point that it requires a lengthy cut.

You have a decent base to work from

[EiFit91]

We've had essentially this same conversation before. I take this position for one primary reason: all else being equal, lean mass counts for more positively than fat does negatively. It is harder to achieve than fat is to lose, supplies the metabolic base for the caloric maintenance one must observe in the process of losing it, and is attained above meager levels only by a surplus unless the individual in question is relatively untrained overall.

Again, this is a school of thought thing. I doubt it really matters in the long run (insofar as any of this ultimately does) as long as OP is following the basic principles with diligence and consistency, since the approach can simply be modified if it's not working after enough time has passed. Along with everyone else, I am a work in progress and my position tends towards shortcomings, as does the opposing camp, but I do endorse this view as I think it is better overall.

The advice to avoid any kind of surplus at OP's weight seems a little wrong-footed to me, personally. He's not even especially overweight and certainly not obese. If the end goal is to be big, and he commits to a modest surplus and trains hard for a while and gains some substantial, quality mass, even if he ends up putting on 5 pounds of fat, what is that? Three, four weeks of cutting at a rather humane deficit? That's truly not something to caution fear towards when you're gaining commensurate, quality mass along with it. So I see advising an approach that doesn't allow for significant hypertophy to occur in the first place as spinning wheels, if the goal is to get big.

I agree that with respect to total lean mass, it probably doesn't matter much in the long run what he chooses to do as long as diet and training is on point.

That is precisely why I favor a cut first. OP is probably about 20% BF but hard to know - the above pics are taken in very favorable lighting and maybe also flexing. In my personal experience, going from > 20% BF to the teens takes a lot more time than you first think. The higher the BF it is also harder to know how much fat you really have to lose.

Bulking first will probably lead to excess fat gain, which will both prolong and postpone an inevitable future cut. The data on overweight/obese people pretty clearly suggests that the number one thing you can do to avoid getting fat is to never get fat in the first place. The body's hormonal responses to going from fat to lean are long-lasting and may be permanent. The majority of people who lose weight gain it all back again. I think this is relevant to consider when considering a bulk starting at a BF% that is already high.

I am not in the camp of "you should get to 12% BF before you even consider a bulk", but I think getting into the healthy range, for instance 15-18%, is reasonable before considering bulking. And I think most people starting from a high BF will spend more time than they think getting into that healthy range.

I don’t know why you seem to imply significant hypertrophy isn’t possible in a deficit. There are plenty of studies showing this statement to be false.

[EliKoehn]

I agree that with respect to total lean mass, it probably doesn't matter much in the long run what he chooses to do as long as diet and training is on point.

That is precisely why I favor a cut first. OP is probably about 20% BF but hard to know - the above pics are taken in very favorable lighting and maybe also flexing. In my personal experience, going from > 20% BF to the teens takes a lot more time than you first think. The higher the BF it is also harder to know how much fat you really have to lose.

Bulking first will probably lead to excess fat gain, which will both prolong and postpone an inevitable future cut. The data on overweight/obese people pretty clearly suggests that the number one thing you can do to avoid getting fat is to never get fat in the first place. The body's hormonal responses to going from fat to lean are long-lasting and may be permanent. The majority of people who lose weight gain it all back again. I think this is relevant to consider when considering a bulk starting at a BF% that is already high.

I am not in the camp of "you should get to 12% BF before you even consider a bulk", but I think getting into the healthy range, for instance 15-18%, is reasonable before considering bulking. And I think most people starting from a high BF will spend more time than they think getting into that healthy range.

That is fair and I think your reasoning makes sense, just not how I would personally go about it; again I think it's a difference in mentality/approach. Don't want to come across arrogantly, either, as though my take is the only way, as this depends greatly on what OP ultimately wants as a goal and what he wants the process to look like.

Good comment regarding favorable light, too. I'd say 20% if I had to put a number on it. Standing in the dark with one dim lightbulb directly over you can make you look much more defined than you really are. Nothing wrong with taking a cool photo but it's another thing to pretend that's a normal scenario.

I'm down about 15-20 pounds over last year and realize in hindsight that I underestimated my BF%, probably by a lot. At the time, I was most likely about 25-27% and thought it was more like 22-23%, which is most likely where I'm at now.

[EiFit91]

That is fair and I think your reasoning makes sense, just not how I would personally go about it; again I think it's a difference in mentality/approach. Don't want to come across arrogantly, either, as though my take is the only way, as this depends greatly on what OP ultimately wants as a goal and what he wants the process to look like.

Good comment regarding favorable light, too. I'd say 20% if I had to put a number on it. Standing in the dark with one dim lightbulb directly over you can make you look much more defined than you really are. Nothing wrong with taking a cool photo but it's another thing to pretend that's a normal scenario.

I'm down about 15-20 pounds over last year and realize in hindsight that I underestimated my BF%, probably by a lot. At the time, I was most likely about 25-27% and thought it was more like 22-23%, which is most likely where I'm at now.

Been there! I started at 235 lbs and thought I'd be 15% at 185 lbs, I am probably about 17% now at 176 lbs.

I think we all tend to be a bit biased towards giving advice based on what worked for ourselves, so that's why this forum is good as it balances out different (all well-reasoned) opinions. I personally come from being overweight/obese throughout my entire 20s. For a long time I was drifting in a permabulk between 200 and 225. Never did a planned "bulk" just several cuts where I ended up drifting back to my highest weight...

In general, I think good bodybuilding advice is to fight your own natural impulses. Fat people want to bulk as it comes naturally to them. Thin people want to cut for the same reason. So fat people stay fat and thin people stay thin.

[safcpaul]

You 3 have all made very good points so thank you. What I take from it is whatever route I take will get me closer to my goal. One goal will have me looking too skinny for my liking and the other has me continuing to carry excess fat. I think after weighing it up I'm going to carry on building muscle and I'll do a cut only when I'm happy with my current strength and muscle as I'll struggle with restricting calories knowing I'm not going to like the end result. As for the lighting in my photo. I actually took it in unfavourable lighting to try and give a good understanding of where I'm currently at. The light bulb is only on because the room would have been too dark if I didn't have it on. If I was trying to make myself look better then I would have took it on a sunny day with the light shining in. However I do agree with you both that I'm around the 20 bf mark if not slightly more. So the plan going forward is very slightly over maintenance while continuing to progress my lifts and I'll cut for next summer. I appreciate all your replies and opinions

[EiFit91]

You 3 have all made very good points so thank you. What I take from it is whatever route I take will get me closer to my goal. One goal will have me looking too skinny for my liking and the other has me continuing to carry excess fat. I think after weighing it up I'm going to carry on building muscle and I'll do a cut only when I'm happy with my current strength and muscle as I'll struggle with restricting calories knowing I'm not going to like the end result. As for the lighting in my photo. I actually took it in unfavourable lighting to try and give a good understanding of where I'm currently at. The light bulb is only on because the room would have been too dark if I didn't have it on. If I was trying to make myself look better then I would have took it on a sunny day with the light shining in. However I do agree with you both that I'm around the 20 bf mark if not slightly more. So the plan going forward is very slightly over maintenance while continuing to progress my lifts and I'll cut for next summer. I appreciate all your replies and opinions

Yes, as long as you eventually cut you will probably end up in the same place. That's a big "if" in my opinion. I think people are mostly split into two types: those who are lean tend to stay lean, people who are higher BF tend to stay there as well (at best, mostly they just get fatter over time). You need to fight your own natural impulses to make a change (this applies both to the skinny guy wanting to get muscular and the heavier guy wanting to get lean).

A couple additional arguments for cutting first:

- The longer you stay overweight the greater the potential for loose skin. Loose skin is generally not possible to remove without surgery
- You are "sculpting" with a blindfold at a higher BF. Harder to see what body parts need more work than when you are leaner

If you want a more accurate BF estimate check out the thread in the "Losing Fat" forum, can be very helpful!

[EliKoehn]

You 3 have all made very good points so thank you. What I take from it is whatever route I take will get me closer to my goal. One goal will have me looking too skinny for my liking and the other has me continuing to carry excess fat. I think after weighing it up I'm going to carry on building muscle and I'll do a cut only when I'm happy with my current strength and muscle as I'll struggle with restricting calories knowing I'm not going to like the end result. As for the lighting in my photo. I actually took it in unfavourable lighting to try and give a good understanding of where I'm currently at. The light bulb is only on because the room would have been too dark if I didn't have it on. If I was trying to make myself look better then I would have took it on a sunny day with the light shining in. However I do agree with you both that I'm around the 20 bf mark if not slightly more. So the plan going forward is very slightly over maintenance while continuing to progress my lifts and I'll cut for next summer. I appreciate all your replies and opinions

I was referring to my own avi with the "standing under a lightbulb" remark. I've uploaded some of my own lifts here in a gym which is very brightly illuminated by LED lights, and you can tell how much difference it makes on visible definition against a dark, shadowy photo where there's only soft light directly above you. Wasn't picking on you at all man.

Good luck with your continued progress

[safcpaul]

Yes, as long as you eventually cut you will probably end up in the same place. That's a big "if" in my opinion. I think people are mostly split into two types: those who are lean tend to stay lean, people who are higher BF tend to stay there as well (at best, mostly they just get fatter over time). You need to fight your own natural impulses to make a change (this applies both to the skinny guy wanting to get muscular and the heavier guy wanting to get lean).

A couple additional arguments for cutting first:

- The longer you stay overweight the greater the potential for loose skin. Loose skin is generally not possible to remove without surgery
- You are "sculpting" with a blindfold at a higher BF. Harder to see what body parts need more work than when you are leaner

If you want a more accurate BF estimate check out the thread in the "Losing Fat" forum, can be very helpful!

I started cutting after I first spoke to you and I'm going to continue cutting. Maintaining sensible bodyfat has to be a goal of mine. I think you're right mate