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    HMS Queen Elizabeth will steer clear of provoking China on first major voyage

    Sail it through.

    HMS Queen Elizabeth will steer clear of provoking China on first major voyage


    Senior Tories urge government to 'rethink journey' as it is revealed Navy's new aircraft carrier will not sail through the Taiwan Strait

    The Royal Navy's new aircraft carrier strike group will take a controversial route to avoid provoking China on her first major voyage, The Telegraph can reveal.

    Although HMS Queen Elizabeth will sail through the South China Sea, a vital shipping route which Beijing has become increasingly assertive over in recent years, she will not sail through the Taiwan Strait, instead going east as she makes her way up to Japan for the final section of the trip.

    However, the decision not to sail the £3 billion warship through the strait on a voyage that will focus on freedom of navigation operations, has raised eyebrows due to Beijing’s vow to annex Taiwan, which it claims as its own territory.

    Sir Iain Duncan Smith, the former Conservative leader, said the Government and Royal Navy “need to rethink this journey”.

    He said: “I'm pleased the Aircraft Carrier is deploying in the South China Sea but they need to complete this process by letting the Chinese know that they disapprove of their very aggressive actions against their neighbours by sailing through the Taiwan Strait. I hope they will revisit their schedule, and ensure that this happens.”

    Tobias Ellwood, chairman of the Defence Select Committee, said the carrier strike group’s maiden voyage had been “rolled out as such an important statement of intent” and worried it could be “diminished” over “fear of offence”.

    Mr Ellwood said the “purpose” of the journey, pictured below, to the Indo Pacific “is to stand up to the authoritarianism of China”.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...a-first-major/
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    Originally Posted by BuckNakedinBama View Post
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    Good job UK.



    If Chinese warships were within 100 miles of UK or American shores, we would be upset.


    So why is it that some people support the idea of our armed military ships so close to Chinese shores?
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    America First. XterraRob's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CalmWind View Post
    Good job UK.



    If Chinese warships were within 100 miles of UK or American shores, we would be upset.


    So why is it that some people support the idea of our armed military ships so close to Chinese shores?
    Are we bullying the Caribbean, Canada, Mexico out of their territorial waters by occupying it with thousands of fishing boats? No, go fish.
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    Yeshua is Messiah CalmWind's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by XterraRob View Post
    Are we bullying the Caribbean, Canada, Mexico out of their territorial waters by occupying it with thousands of fishing boats? No, go fish.

    Not the end of the world if Taiwan just gets absorbed by China. Taiwanese are all ethnic chinese anyway.


    Not interested in being world police.
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  10. #10
    America First. XterraRob's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CalmWind View Post
    Not the end of the world if Taiwan just gets absorbed by China. Taiwanese are all ethnic chinese anyway.

    Not interested in being world police.
    Every aggressive action on behalf of a rapidly growing superpower only empowers it if not properly countered, history is a good teacher in this regard.
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  11. #11
    Yeshua is Messiah CalmWind's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by XterraRob View Post
    Every aggressive action on behalf of a rapidly growing superpower only empowers it if not properly countered, history is a good teacher in this regard.
    Not the same. Taiwanese population is largely made up of ethnic Chinese, for centuries.

    And the Taiwanese gov't is just the ousted losers of the Chinese Civil War after WW2. They claim they are still the legitimate rulers of mainland China, but they lost control and ran to Taiwan in the 1950s.

    They are all Chinese. Us getting involved in that mess is dumb. We are backing the losers of their civil war.


    It would be like if the American Confederates ran away and set up a new country near our shores, and then they reach out to Russia to help them become legitimate, and then Russia comes and backs them against U.S. interests.

    We would be like, uh wtf? Get out of our business.

    These are our shores, that's our land, and those people are/were Americans.
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  12. #12
    America First. XterraRob's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CalmWind View Post
    Not the same. Taiwanese population is largely made up of ethnic Chinese, for centuries.

    And the Taiwanese gov't is just the ousted losers of the Chinese Civil War after WW2. They claim they are still the legitimate rulers of mainland China, but they lost control and ran to Taiwan in the 1950s.

    They are all Chinese.


    Us getting involved in that mess is dumb. We are backing the losers of their civil war. It would be like if the American Confederates ran away and set up a new country near our shores, and then Russia comes and backs them against the USA.

    We would be like, uh wtf? Get out of our business. These are our shores, that's our land, and those people are/were Americans.
    It doesn't stop at Taiwan if nothing is done to deter them, you have to realize that. No country can come close to matching China, it may eventually take the whole world to put them down.
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  13. #13
    Yeshua is Messiah CalmWind's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by XterraRob View Post
    It doesn't stop at Taiwan if nothing is done, you have to realize that. No country can come close to matching China, it may eventually take the whole world to put them down.
    China is not Hitler,

    and backing out of their Civil War dispute is not the appeasement of the Sudetenland.
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  14. #14
    America First. XterraRob's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MicrosoftExcel View Post
    Do u think it is important and worth fighting them to protect Taiwan and HK Rob? Communism already lost. It seems unnecessarily provocative for us anyway. Taiwan is maybe worth protecting since it's its own country. HK is legally China's. We don't really have any obligation to get involved.
    lol repped for username. It's not as much about protecting Taiwan as it is about containing an authoritarian superpower.
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    Yeshua is Messiah CalmWind's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MicrosoftExcel View Post
    Do u think it is important and worth fighting them to protect Taiwan and HK Rob? Communism already lost. It seems unnecessarily provocative for us anyway. Taiwan is maybe worth protecting since it's its own country and we have a lot of interests there with semiconductor manufacturing. HK is legally China's. We don't really have any obligation to get involved.
    I mean, technically, Taiwan was stolen from China when the losers of their Civil war ran to Taiwan to start another country. Taiwan was a Chinese territory when the ROC (Republic of China) fled there.


    It would be as if the American Confederate army ran to Puerto Rico* and started another country. And then they reached out to Russia to protect them against our interests.


    We would rightly say,

    "Hold on a minute. Puerto Rico was an American territory, and the Confederates ran there and stole it from us by creating another country. They lost the American Civil war, and now want to steal our land."

    We would tell Russia to stay out of our affairs, we would take back Puerto Rico, and we would arrest the Confederates, would we not?



    * yes, I know we didn't own Puerto Rico until the 1890s. Just an example, as I couldn't think of another closeby island that we owned at the time.
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    Originally Posted by MicrosoftExcel View Post
    We should look at moving more of our manufacturing and stuff to other nations than China if we are concerned about their authoritarian influence. We should also probably set some kind of limits on foreign investment in US companies. The fact that Tencent owns so much is a little ridiculous. It can have influences on US media as we have seen with the HK protests and criticism of them.
    These are things that are getting addressed. It's literally like removing a cancer that's affecting your entire body.

    How do you do it without dying?

    Originally Posted by CalmWind View Post
    * yes, I know we didn't own Puerto Rico until the 1890s. Just an example, as I couldn't think of another closeby island that we owned at the time.
    You clearly have no problem with the Government of China or see them as a threat in any form.
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    Originally Posted by XterraRob View Post
    You clearly have no problem with the Government of China or see them as a threat in any form.
    You cannot surmise that from my arguments. The two do not correlate. Because there are other ways to deal with China.


    All I said was that, technically, the territory of Taiwan was stolen from China, as it belonged to China when the losers of their Civil war ran there and started a new country. Technically, China is right to want it back. We are in the wrong to interfere.
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  19. #19
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    Originally Posted by CalmWind View Post
    I mean, technically, Taiwan was stolen from China when the losers of their Civil war ran to Taiwan to start another country. Taiwan was a Chinese territory when the ROC (Republic of China) fled there.


    It would be as if the American Confederate army ran to Puerto Rico* and started another country. And then they reached out to Russia to protect them against our interests.


    We would rightly say,

    "Hold on a minute. Puerto Rico was an American territory, and the Confederates ran there and stole it from us by creating another country. They lost the American Civil war, and now want to steal our land."

    We would tell Russia to stay out of our affairs, we would take back Puerto Rico, and we would arrest the Confederates, would we not?



    * yes, I know we didn't own Puerto Rico until the 1890s. Just an example, as I couldn't think of another closeby island that we owned at the time.
    That's exactly what Russia would do, though.
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    Originally Posted by GreatOldOne View Post
    That's exactly what Russia would do, though.
    yes, of course.


    But my point is, we would react exactly like China is reacting.


    We would want our island back.


    To compare China to Hitler, and Taiwan <--> Sudentenland is wrong.
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    Originally Posted by MicrosoftExcel View Post
    IDK, but we could pass laws basically banning corporate influence on free speech or something. This is something both parties have been wanting for a long time. Even still, it can be extremely dangerous for national security if a Chinese multinational gained control of big tech firms in the US. Imagine if China controlled Google or something. Simply because of the Chinese government's influence on Chinese multinationals, they should be viewed with skepticism and have their power restrained. I think that's entirely fair since our corporations play by their government's rules when operating in their country.
    It's a big pill to swallow.

    Corporate America doesn't want to leave China. The same Corporate America who gets politicians elected at all levels. How do you tell them no? I will agree the US Government is slow walking the issue, but it's also being very quiet about its plans because of the sensitive nature, so it's hard to see what work is being done behind the scenes.

    The scale of competition with China is universal and simply staggering. When looking at something as simple as the US relocating the supply of X, China will, once they find out about X, do what they can to lobby governments, acquire/sell add'l companies, drive up/down resources, anything to stifle any attempt to relocate outside of China. China has the luxury of wielding state owned entities, along with its infinite money tree, to do their bidding. The US Government doesn't exactly have that luxury.

    Big battles ahead, a lot of big, big battles.

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    Originally Posted by MicrosoftExcel View Post
    Yeah but in that sense even Texas is stolen territory as well. I mean you can do this for every single nation pretty much. The Taiwanese sure as hell do NOT want to be members of China. And they have been good friends to the US.
    Unfortunately, we gain a lot more by not going to war with China, than being friends with Taiwan.

    Eventually, China is going to get fed up and then we will have to tuck tail and accept it, or do what.. go to war?

    Because Taiwan has been nice to us? Of course they are good friends to us, they need us to interfere in their Civil War dispute and keep Big Bro from taking them home.



    I just don't think the issue is worth our time. It's a civil war dispute between them.
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    Originally Posted by XterraRob View Post
    It's a big pill to swallow.

    Corporate America doesn't want to leave China. The same Corporate America who gets politicians elected at all levels. How do you tell them no? I will agree the US Government is slow walking the issue, but it's also being very quiet about its plans because of the sensitive nature, so it's hard to see what work is being done behind the scenes.

    The scale of competition with China is universal and simply staggering. When looking at something as simple as the US relocating the supply of X, China will, once they find out about X, do what they can to lobby governments, acquire/sell add'l companies, drive up/down resources, anything to stifle any attempt to relocate outside of China. China has the luxury of wielding state owned entities, along with its infinite money tree, to do their bidding. The US Government doesn't exactly have that luxury.

    Big battles ahead, a lot of big, big battles.

    https://libcom.org/library/allied-mu...ny-world-war-2

    Some would say, China is even capable of intentionally releasing biological weapons in order to affect global economies and election outcomes.
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    Originally Posted by CalmWind View Post
    yes, of course.


    But my point is, we would react exactly like China is reacting.


    We would want our island back.


    To compare China to Hitler, and Taiwan <--> Sudentenland is wrong.
    My point is they would do whatever they can to decrease our geopolitical strength. Which is what competitors/adversaries often do to avoid being overpowered.
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    Originally Posted by MicrosoftExcel View Post
    Capable, yes. But if you're talking about covid, it sounds farfetched to me that they would release it in Wuhan. All they would need to do is vaccinate themselves first if they really had such a plan. China's economy also suffered greatly until they were able to reopen.
    When you say they would have to vaccinate themselves first. They would only need to do this for the important people and their families, in secret. In their eyes, the average person on the street is collateral damage and is expendable.


    Lastly, think about it. If China deals with the virus first, and has 6 months+ head start on everyone else, and furthermore the higher ups already know how to deal with it in secret.. does this not mean they will beat Covid first, and emerge on the other side before anyone else, and reap the rewards?

    Did you know that China had entire hospitals full of Covid carriers, and 0 of them developed severe symptoms? They used this special mix of herbs called (had to google to remember this) "Xuanfeibaidu Prescription" that specifically deals with Covid very well.




    Originally Posted by MicrosoftExcel View Post
    I completely agree there. I don't want a war with China. In fact, I think we should do everything we possibly can to prevent such a war from ever happening. But we also cannot be complacent either. Rob may be a little over the top sometimes, but he is right to be skeptical. China has a track record of giving absolutely zero fuks and doing whatever it can to achieve the agenda of its leaders. And it may not be a total dictatorship in the style of Stalin or Mao, but it still is among the most authoritarian nations on the Earth. I'm also concerned about Saudi influence as well. This is another authoritarian regime that gets away with everything due to its economic value to the US. If we don't want to be associated with these regimes, we have to stop doing so much business with them. But on the other hand, refusing to interact with these nations is itself going to create conditions leading to war. There's a fine line we have to walk. We need to be prepared to resist China and protect our allies. If the US completely ignored Asia altogether, China could conceivably influence and directly or indirectly control South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan. It wouldn't be good in the long run for us, our allies, or freedom in general.
    I am fully aware of China and their desire to supplant US influence.... but Taiwan is not something I'd waste my time with. In fact, it could be used to our advantage. Let them annex it, and then foment civil unrest and give them headaches lol. To the Taiwan problem, China will inevitably reply with a heavy hand, and then we can exploit that on the world stage.

    Anyway.



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    Originally Posted by GreatOldOne View Post
    My point is they would do whatever they can to decrease our geopolitical strength. Which is what competitors/adversaries often do to avoid being overpowered.
    Yes, but Russia is not in debt like the USA is, and as overextended as we are.

    Taiwan is not worth our time
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    Originally Posted by BuckNakedinBama View Post
    Poverty AF lololololol
    ^This
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    Originally Posted by XterraRob View Post
    It's a big pill to swallow.

    Corporate America doesn't want to leave China. The same Corporate America who gets politicians elected at all levels. How do you tell them no? I will agree the US Government is slow walking the issue, but it's also being very quiet about its plans because of the sensitive nature, so it's hard to see what work is being done behind the scenes.

    The scale of competition with China is universal and simply staggering. When looking at something as simple as the US relocating the supply of X, China will, once they find out about X, do what they can to lobby governments, acquire/sell add'l companies, drive up/down resources, anything to stifle any attempt to relocate outside of China. China has the luxury of wielding state owned entities, along with its infinite money tree, to do their bidding. The US Government doesn't exactly have that luxury.

    Big battles ahead, a lot of big, big battles.

    https://libcom.org/library/allied-mu...ny-world-war-2
    Who are you quoting? I don't see posts from Microsoft guy anywhere ITT?
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    Originally Posted by RIKTER View Post
    Who are you quoting? I don't see posts from Microsoft guy anywhere ITT?
    Mods must have swept them up.
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    Originally Posted by XterraRob View Post
    Mods must have swept them up.
    A mod deleted all his posts ITT?
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