Adding collagen to protein shakes?

[BeginnerGainz]

You’ve never had pho?

Yes but I thought that was rice noodles?

[snailsrus]

Yes but I thought that was rice noodles?

and beef tendon is very common. It’s normally the first pho listed, this menu is from our local pho place (Which is a very rural small town) so it shows how common it is.

[Mrpb]

Nobody is saying its a necessity, just that there may be some benefits to taking it in regards to skin, hair, nails, and joints.

Exactly. And personal anecdote: I always used to get shoulder pain after bench pressing heavy weight no matter what technical cues I used. After taking collagen for a long time this problem had disappeared. I'm not sure if it's related but I'll keep taking it. It's the only supplement I use besides whey.

[EiFit91]

Exactly. And personal anecdote: I always used to get shoulder pain after bench pressing heavy weight no matter what technical cues I used. After taking collagen for a long time this problem had disappeared. I'm not sure if it's related but I'll keep taking it. It's the only supplement I use besides whey.

No creatine?

[Mrpb]

No creatine?

I would if I wasn't worried about the increase in DHT. I know this is controversial but the only study that I'm aware of that has actually measured it showed a significant increase.

[EiFit91]

I would if I wasn't worried about the increase in DHT. I know this is controversial but the only study that I'm aware of that has actually measured it showed a significant increase.

Ah ok, yeah I personally don't believe in that association but who knows. My father lost his hair without taking creatine and I think my hair started thinning well before I started taking it so might as well get some extra gains (and general health benefits) and accept my ultimate fate.

I think there should be a randomized trial on this, it is weird that it hasn't been done as it would go completely viral in the large community of anxious recreational bodybuilders.

[Mrpb]

Ah ok, yeah I personally don't believe in that association but who knows.

Not sure if I follow you, it was an intervention study and the result was directly measured.

I guess you mean the association between DHT and hair loss. Well you know the most effective medicine against hair loss Propecia works by lowering DHT by 40% iirc.

I don't know what will happen if you increase it but I don't count on it being helpful if you want to keep your hair as long as possible.

I would only care about it if you were prone to lose your hair though. If you're not, the increase in DHT may not matter at all.

I think there should be a randomized trial on this, it is weird that it hasn't been done as it would go completely viral in the large community of anxious recreational bodybuilders.

I wonder, there's quite a lot of money to be made from selling creatine. One study that shows creatine doesn't increase DHT wouldn't cost so much... why aren't they doing it... hmmm.

[EiFit91]

Not sure if I follow you, it was an intervention study and the result was directly measured.

I guess you mean the association between DHT and hair loss. Well you know the most effective medicine against hair loss Propecia works by lowering DHT by 40% iirc.

I don't know what will happen if you increase it but I don't count on it being helpful if you want to keep your hair as long as possible.

I would only care about it if you were prone to lose your hair though. If you're not, the increase in DHT may not matter at all.



I wonder, there's quite a lot of money to be made from selling creatine. One study that shows creatine doesn't increase DHT wouldn't cost so much... why aren't they doing it... hmmm.

No I meant "I am not sure if I believe in that result", as it has only been reported in a single study using a very small sample, and this study has never been replicated.

You could flip your point around as well. There are plenty of researchers who could get a big career benefit from showing that creatine _does_ increase DHT (or even better, that it leads to hair loss), and there are plenty of ways to get funding, you don't have to rely on companies selling creatine.

[Mrpb]

No I meant "I am not sure if I believe in that result", as it has only been reported in a single study using a very small sample, and this study has never been replicated.

The study was with 20 men and DHT remained 40% above baseline after 14 days. Pretty potent if you ask me. I find it hard to believe that's a fluke. In the absence of more data I would just treat the data as valid but that's just me.

You could flip your point around as well. There are plenty of researchers who could get a big career benefit from showing that creatine _does_ increase DHT (or even better, that it leads to hair loss), and there are plenty of ways to get funding, you don't have to rely on companies selling creatine.

Making a career of replicating a study and confirming it? I doubt it. I think most researchers prefer publishing new findings.

And just as easy to fund? Doubt that too. It's far easier to find funding if you're going to publish something that useful to the industry. For example: walnuts lower LDL or meat is healthy etc.

[EiFit91]

The study was with 20 men and DHT remained 40% above baseline after 14 days. Pretty potent if you ask me. I find it hard to believe that's a fluke. In the absence of more data I would just treat the data as valid but that's just me.



Making a career of replicating a study and confirming it? I doubt it. I think most researchers prefer publishing new findings.

And just as easy to fund? Doubt that too. It's far easier to find funding if you're going to publish something that useful to the industry. For example: walnuts lower LDL or meat is healthy etc.

Replicating the DHT/creatine link alone, no. Proving a causal link between creatine supplementation and hair loss? A good study on that would be extremely publishable.

I don't necessarily think it's a "fluke", but a problem with taking this point estimate as the "truth" is that in a sample of 20 individuals only large effects will be statistically significant, so this effect may be an overestimate even if true (and this "exaggeration problem" gets worse and worse the smaller the sample). And there's also the problem that intense exercise can elevate DHT levels and creatine can help you push yourself harder in the gym, so the interpretation may be that the creatine just makes people work out more intensely, thus raising DHT levels. So don't work out too hard, you may lose your hair!

[desslok]

Exactly. And personal anecdote: I always used to get shoulder pain after bench pressing heavy weight no matter what technical cues I used. After taking collagen for a long time this problem had disappeared. I'm not sure if it's related but I'll keep taking it. It's the only supplement I use besides whey.

How much are you currently taking daily. I need to look into this. My knees are still hurting from Snowboarding on Saturday.

[Mrpb]

Replicating the DHT/creatine link alone, no. Proving a causal link between creatine supplementation and hair loss? A good study on that would be extremely publishable.

It would be but man... that would take a lot of time and thus money. Hair loss is very slowly. If creatine really increases DHT by 30 or so % it might take a year before you can measure a significant difference in hair count.

During the rugby study they only did maintenance exercise, not very intense. Based on the science I've seen I don't think it's plausible that the few percent that creatine might make people work out harder is going to cause such large changes in DHT. But like you I really hope to see more data on it.

I tend to go with data over no data so my advice for anyone that worries about it would be to get your DHT tested. Not that hard. Not everyone might see such a high response to 3 grams creatine daily but it is very likely at least some people will.

[EiFit91]

It would be but man... that would take a lot of time and thus money. Hair loss is very slowly. If creatine really increases DHT by 30 or so % it might take a year before you can measure a significant difference in hair count.

During the rugby study they only did maintenance exercise, not very intense. Based on the science I've seen I don't think it's plausible that the few percent that creatine might make people work out harder is going to cause such large changes in DHT. But like you I really hope to see more data on it.

I tend to go with data over no data so my advice for anyone that worries about it would be to get your DHT tested. Not that hard. Not everyone might see such a high response to 3 grams creatine daily but it is very likely at least some people will.

Maybe, but it is like testing testosterone levels in response to a supplement, these levels fluctuate a lot naturally. So to really get a sense of how your DHT levels are affected by supplementation you would have to do a N = 1 experiment over time where you take creatine/not take it, ideally several times, and monitor your DHT levels over time as you vary the supplementation.

As an illustration of this problem (which also illustrates how important sampling variation is), in the study we are referencing the placebo group had almost as much of a drop in DHT levels as the rise in DHT in the creatine group.

[Mrpb]

Maybe, but it is like testing testosterone levels in response to a supplement, these levels fluctuate a lot naturally. So to really get a sense of how your DHT levels are affected by supplementation you would have to do a N = 1 experiment over time where you take creatine/not take it, ideally several times, and monitor your DHT levels over time as you vary the supplementation.

As an illustration of this problem (which also illustrates how important sampling variation is), in the study we are referencing the placebo group had almost as much of a drop in DHT levels as the rise in DHT in the creatine group.

Testing twice, once after one month without creatine, once after a month with, would likely already give a good indication. More testing would improve accuracy but it may not be necessary.

The drop in the placebo group was about 16% after 21 days. The creatine group was 41% increased after 21 days.

[air2fakie]

How much are you currently taking daily. I need to look into this. My knees are still hurting from Snowboarding on Saturday.

Likely technique and/or falling... snowboarding is pretty knee-friendly.

[desslok]

Likely technique and/or falling... snowboarding is pretty knee-friendly.

Mainly from landing jumps/boxes etc. I’m just happy to land even though it may not look super smooth lol

[air2fakie]

Mainly from landing jumps/boxes etc. I’m just happy to land even though it may not look super smooth lol

Haha, got it. Yeah that's fair - I stopped doing park years ago.