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  1. #1
    Registered User goldenerafan's Avatar
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    Not meeting protein macros

    I am NOT a vegan or a vegetarian. In fact I struggle to eat veggies for a number of reasons. Though I hear a lot of vegans or plant based people attribute lack of protein and muscle development due to low calorie intakes. Which makes sense. (Too big of a calorie deficit) As long as one is getting enough calories supporting health and performance, consistently training with progress, checking all the other boxes off, muscle should develop? Not saying to avoid protein macronutrient, or that food sources don’t matter. I am wondering how efficient is the human body in extracting amino acids from various foods when not given concentrated sources of protein? Ie meat.
    Last edited by goldenerafan; 03-14-2021 at 11:24 AM.
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  2. #2
    Moderator SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    Protein dosing as it relates to muscle gain has been very well studied.

    The numbers we recommend are generally the highest protein intakes which have been shown to provide a benefit compared to less protein intake. At some point you have more than you need - but less could lead to less muscle development.

    This has been inferred from real data gathered objectively from groups of subjects under controlled conditions. If you simply ask for anecdotes, you leave yourself wide open to speculation and confirmation bias. That's why studies are designed how they are designed.

    The effect of variables such as net calorie balance and protein intake can be distinguished if you use enough statistical rigor.

    Bottom line: if you shortchange protein, you probably are not doing as well as you could be - but that's not the same thing as saying you'll get nothing at all...
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    Registered User goldenerafan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    Protein dosing as it relates to muscle gain has been very well studied.

    The numbers we recommend are generally the highest protein intakes which have been shown to provide a benefit compared to less protein intake. At some point you have more than you need - but less could lead to less muscle development.

    This has been inferred from real data gathered objectively from groups of subjects under controlled conditions. If you simply ask for anecdotes, you leave yourself wide open to speculation and confirmation bias. That's why studies are designed how they are designed.

    The effect of variables such as net calorie balance and protein intake can be distinguished if you use enough statistical rigor.

    Bottom line: if you shortchange protein, you probably are not doing as well as you could be - but that's not the same thing as saying you'll get nothing at all...
    Thank you for replying Suffolk Punch! That makes sense. I guess it also depends on goals. Also genetics too.
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    Super Spreader desslok's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by goldenerafan View Post
    Thank you for replying Suffolk Punch! That makes sense. I guess it also depends on goals. Also genetics too.
    The human body is pretty efficient and adaptive. But ESSENTIAL things like essential amino acids must come from diet. If you don’t get them your body can’t just produce them magically from calories. Its kind of like saying, if I stop breathing, but I drink enough water, can’t i just get my oxygen from water?
    Superbus est, qui loquitur in prouerbiis Latinis.

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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    There is some truth to the idea that certain plant-based protein sources have a lower digestibility and absorption affinity compared to animal sources.

    You can look for information about the Protein Digestability-Corrected Amino Acid Score if you’re curious about it.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    Registered User goldenerafan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    The human body is pretty efficient and adaptive. But ESSENTIAL things like essential amino acids must come from diet. If you don’t get them your body can’t just produce them magically from calories. Its kind of like saying, if I stop breathing, but I drink enough water, can’t i just get my oxygen from water?
    Yeah just it sucks having digestion issues. I am seeing a Gastrologist.
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    Originally Posted by goldenerafan View Post
    I am NOT a vegan or a vegetarian. In fact I struggle to eat veggies for a number of reasons. Though I hear a lot of vegans or plant based people attribute lack of protein and muscle development due to low calorie intakes. Which makes sense. (Too big of a calorie deficit) As long as one is getting enough calories supporting health and performance, consistently training with progress, checking all the other boxes off, muscle should develop? Not saying to avoid protein macronutrient, or that food sources don’t matter. I am wondering how efficient is the human body in extracting amino acids from various foods when not given concentrated sources of protein? Ie meat.
    Well, yes and no, I’m plant based and I eat less than 1g per 1lb of body weight most days. I do prioritize protein in all of my meals however. I’m also a 120lb woman, so results may vary for a much larger man. That being said I’ve made amazing progress since switching over to a plant based diet. So I would say no, not meeting calculated goals doesn’t necessarily mean you won’t make gains.

    Keep in mind that SO much goes into muscle building. Your bodies nutrient absorption rate, metabolic rate, sleep patterns, micronutrients, natural recovery time, supplements, endocrine function, cortisol levels, how solid your programming is, are you using progressive overload techniques......the only way to know if YOU will make progress without hitting what you believe is the necessary daily amount is to try it out and track your progress.
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    Registered User Lreithm2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    The human body is pretty efficient and adaptive. But ESSENTIAL things like essential amino acids must come from diet. If you don’t get them your body can’t just produce them magically from calories. Its kind of like saying, if I stop breathing, but I drink enough water, can’t i just get my oxygen from water?
    I just want to say that you can get all of the essential amino acids from a plant based diet. While there has undoubtedly been tons of reliable studies on dietary protein there also has been studies on plant based protein. Typically plant based proteins have been shown to have a slightly higher absorption rate than animal based protein. Therefore, someone who requires 200g of animal protein may only require 175g of plant based protein....roughly. So that’s something just to keep in mind.

    If clients want to switch to plant based I would ask what are your clients protein sources, specifically how low is your clients daily protein intake, what does their new diet look like, Is it balanced, are they still prioritizing protein or are they slamming oreos and bananas all day....how are they progressing in the gym etc. rather than just comparing not hitting some calculated protein number to not having oxygen lol.
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  9. #9
    Registered User goldenerafan's Avatar
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    I was thinking about my thread again and I dont dispute what has been said. Its just odd that so much protein is need for a HIGHLY regulated process. I am starting to think, the body needs way more protein first before it gives protein to muscle repair which is a highly regulated process.
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    Moderator SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by goldenerafan View Post
    I was thinking about my thread again and I dont dispute what has been said. Its just odd that so much protein is need for a HIGHLY regulated process. I am starting to think, the body needs way more protein first before it gives protein to muscle repair which is a highly regulated process.
    I don't really get what you mean by a highly regulated process...

    If it helps, most protein is used for simple maintenance and repair - it's essential to have a certain amount even if you don't weight train. New tissue growth is over and above that - it will always be a low priority process for the body - only really done when both aminos and energy are in plentiful supply.

    More info:
    https://www.nutritiontactics.com/mea...ein-synthesis/
    Last edited by SuffolkPunch; 04-21-2021 at 05:33 AM.
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  11. #11
    Registered User goldenerafan's Avatar
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    Suffolk I will take a look at the link in while. I am on my way to work. I meant before that despite lifting weights which elevates muscle protein synthesis for 24hrs I believe, the body as far as I know does not add muscle like crazy. It aggregates in very small quantities over time. Much smaller than people think. Which is why I was thinking protein requirements should be lower. The FDA mentions 50 grams a day to regular population. We are different from the regular population but just saying. Thank you for the reply and link.
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  12. #12
    Gaintaining Mrpb's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by goldenerafan View Post
    I am wondering how efficient is the human body in extracting amino acids from various foods when not given concentrated sources of protein? Ie meat.
    Very efficient. All sources count towards your total. You don't need to eat meat to build muscle.

    Meat contains more EAAs than plants though, so you'll have to eat a lot of plants to get the same effect.

    If your diet contains 0.7 gram protein per lb you're more than likely eating enough protein.
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  13. #13
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    Originally Posted by goldenerafan View Post
    Suffolk I will take a look at the link in while. I am on my way to work. I meant before that despite lifting weights which elevates muscle protein synthesis for 24hrs I believe, the body as far as I know does not add muscle like crazy. It aggregates in very small quantities over time. Much smaller than people think. Which is why I was thinking protein requirements should be lower. The FDA mentions 50 grams a day to regular population. We are different from the regular population but just saying. Thank you for the reply and link.
    FDA sets levels of nutrients to prevent deficiencies, not for optimal health or for specific goals like muscle increase.
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