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  1. #31
    Registered User RapidFail's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sooby View Post
    I believe Eric Helms addresses this in a podcast. Full body doesn't necessarily mean you train every single body part on that day. I mean you got triceps, biceps, quads, hams, chest, back, calves, shoulders, etc. It would be kind of difficult, if not perhaps a bit inefficient to train all of these in one session. SO perhaps you focus on a few muscle groups or movements. For example on day 1 you do chest, quads, biceps, calves, day 2 you do back, hamstrings, triceps, lateral delts, or however you want to split it. Full body is moreso used in the context that you train both your upper and lower body on the same day. I think Suffolk likes to cycle body parts, you could basically do it that way but I'd still consider it "full body", but concentrating on a few different muscles on that day.

    Don't really see much of a problem splitting it the way he has, I'd agree splitting for the sake of splitting is meh and could probably be worked into 3-4 days. But sometimes trying some different, or if it fits best within a general lifestyle/situation is better. I personally like a 4x full body but I also have strength related goals as well. I always do some horizontal press variation on each of those days, a squat variation on 3 out of the 4 days and a deadlift variation on 2 of the four days. so I guess you could say it's split based on movements as well. just plug in and play
    Yep, that's the general idea. I'd be happy to do 4x full body, but I would have to reduce the sets as I need to keep my workouts to ~50 minutes due to reasons mentioned in previous posts.
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  2. #32
    Registered User leidenesLK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sooby View Post
    I believe Eric Helms addresses this in a podcast. Full body doesn't necessarily mean you train every single body part on that day. I mean you got triceps, biceps, quads, hams, chest, back, calves, shoulders, etc. It would be kind of difficult, if not perhaps a bit inefficient to train all of these in one session. SO perhaps you focus on a few muscle groups or movements. For example on day 1 you do chest, quads, biceps, calves, day 2 you do back, hamstrings, triceps, lateral delts, or however you want to split it. Full body is moreso used in the context that you train both your upper and lower body on the same day. I think Suffolk likes to cycle body parts, you could basically do it that way but I'd still consider it "full body", but concentrating on a few different muscles on that day.

    Don't really see much of a problem splitting it the way he has, I'd agree splitting for the sake of splitting is meh and could probably be worked into 3-4 days. But sometimes trying some different, or if it fits best within a general lifestyle/situation is better.
    Fair enough. My assumption was that the goal was 5x/wk frequency as I’m seeing a fair bit of >3x frequency fb routines lately that do work each muscle group every session, so I was merely pointing out that it’s coming up a little short if that was the intention. No issues with how it’s split up, though it’s not my thing personally.

    Yep, agree. If it keeps things interesting then have at it. I know for myself I cannot justify coming in for 4 exercises and calling it a day 5x a week. I’d much rather split it into 5-7 exercises across 3-4 days.
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  3. #33
    Unregistered User MyEgoProblem's Avatar
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    I only do 3 lifts a day on my 4xfb setups.
    I don't see much point doing any more.. Ends up as crap effort junk for me.

    But Tbh.. I used to go to the gym 12x a week a few years ago! Direct route to/from work. Was the most fun I ever had training.

    I'd go squat and bench (and dead eod) on way home from first shift
    Then squat and bench again on was home from second shift.
    While running a gtg pull up program though the day.

    Gainz where disgusting so when I see people saying 3+ is excessive I grin. And just break down laughing when people can't manage 2x freq.. Or have to pull every other week.
    Last edited by MyEgoProblem; 03-06-2021 at 05:55 AM. Reason: Don't recommend most people try unless they have great fatigue management and can be honest w load
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  4. #34
    Registered User RapidFail's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by leidenesLK View Post
    Fair enough. My assumption was that the goal was 5x/wk frequency as I’m seeing a fair bit of >3x frequency fb routines lately that do work each muscle group every session, so I was merely pointing out that it’s coming up a little short if that was the intention. No issues with how it’s split up, though it’s not my thing personally.

    Yep, agree. If it keeps things interesting then have at it. I know for myself I cannot justify coming in for 4 exercises and calling it a day 5x a week. I’d much rather split it into 5-7 exercises across 3-4 days.
    5x frequency was never the intention of this routine - 3x is more than enough for me. If I were going to a gym and had more time I would probably split the same volume into four sessions instead. As it is, I train in my home gym and have to fit it in 45-50 mins pet day, including warmups.
    Last edited by RapidFail; 03-21-2021 at 12:21 AM.
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  5. #35
    Registered User RapidFail's Avatar
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    I've started a training log with this routine and did my first workout today - it would be great if some of you would follow and help me along. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread.

    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...post1633188543
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  6. #36
    Registered User jimmyk21's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RapidFail View Post
    5x frequency was never the intention of this routine - 3x is more than enough for me. If I were going to a gym and had more time I would probably split the same volume into four sessions instead. As it is, I train in my home gym and have to fit it in 45-50 mins pet day, inckuding warmups.
    Perfectly fine to spread the work over 5 days vs 3-4 especially to fit your lifestyle as mentioned. I've been toying with the idea of trying something higher freq but to me it's also body part and movement dependent. Less "taxing" lifts can be hit more frequently because they recover faster. I like the trend lately of more creative workouts splits because every muscle shouldn't be treated the same, they are just a good general starting point for someone not qualified to make a super personalized split.

    The way I view this Helms style "full body" is creating a split for each muscle and then finding a way to mix and match doing what on what day allows you to both get effective workouts that day and recover for the next one. Each day might not be a true full body or true upper/lower day but hitting each muscle with the frequency you want for that muscle while not effecting other lifts. For me, I like to 2x/week each larger muscle - chest/legs/back and might 3x a week arms and side delts but not a ton of volume and at the end of a workout.

    My back recovers so much faster than my chest though so I'm debating if I want to just add volume to my back or up the frequency to 3x. If volume is equated I think we know hitting a muscle more than once is ideal but is spreading that volume over 3 sessions better than 2? I'm fascinated by this, because 3x frequency allows you to hit the muscle while "fresh" more often but lower frequency allows more recovery in between but potentially more "junk volume" at the end of a session.

    Generic example, if you do 12 sets per week for chest you can do 1x freq for 12 sets, 2x for 6 each, or 3x 4 each. Once a week is out for me because the second half off that workout feels like overkill and I don't need a week off. 2x a week is more logical as you spread out the work and still get good recovery time between sessions. What I've been thinking about lately is if there is a valid reason to go to 3x and spread it out even more, smaller volume/stimulus but more frequency.

    Sorry for the long diary entry, been thinking about this exact topic a lot lately.
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  7. #37
    Registered User RapidFail's Avatar
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    I've just started playing softball and don't think I can properly recover from the 5-day program. Here's a revised 4-day full body version. I've removed one set from push ups and deadlifts, everything else is the same, just shuffled around. Workouts will be Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday.

    DAY 1
    Squat 4 x 3-5
    Push Ups 3 x AMRAP
    RDL 3 x 6-8
    Biceps 3 x 8-12
    Calf Raises 3 x 12-15

    DAY 2
    Bench 4 x 3-5
    Row 4 x 4-6
    Pull Ups 3 x 6-8
    Triceps 3 x 12-15
    Neck Work 3 x 15-20

    REST

    DAY 3
    Deadlift 3 x 3-5
    Front squat 3 x 6-8
    Close Grip Bench 3 x 8-12
    DB Row 3 x 8-12
    Calf Raises 3 x 15-20

    DAY 4
    Chin Ups 4 x 6-8
    OHP 4 x 5-7
    Single Leg 3 x 6-8
    Leg Curls 3 x 15-20
    Lateral Raise 3 x 12-15
    Last edited by RapidFail; 04-17-2021 at 09:06 PM.
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  8. #38
    Registered User WolfRose7's Avatar
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    Looks alright,

    I'd personally have my 2nd squat on day 2 or 3 (deadlift on the other day).
    And have a 2nd hip hinge with the single leg work on day 4.

    But whatever works
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  9. #39
    Registered User RapidFail's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by WolfRose7 View Post
    Looks alright,

    I'd personally have my 2nd squat on day 2 or 3 (deadlift on the other day).
    And have a 2nd hip hinge with the single leg work on day 4.

    But whatever works
    I tend to get a bit of quad soreness the Day after squatting, so I figured consecutive days wouldn't be ideal. I also tend to get a lot of soreness from RDLs, so I'll avoid having them the Day before softball. Might play with things a bit though - Day 2 is looking a bit too much like an Upper workout.
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  10. #40
    Registered User WolfRose7's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RapidFail View Post
    I tend to get a bit of quad soreness the Day after squatting, so I figured consecutive days wouldn't be ideal. I also tend to get a lot of soreness from RDLs, so I'll avoid having them the Day before softball. Might play with things a bit though - Day 2 is looking a bit too much like an Upper workout.

    Tbh consecutive is pretty alright for soreness as long as its not terrible, which would be odd for anyone other than complete novice or after a lay off anyway.

    Many ways to skin a cat though.

    My typical
    Sbb
    Dbs
    X
    Sbb
    Dbd
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  11. #41
    Registered User RapidFail's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by WolfRose7 View Post
    Tbh consecutive is pretty alright for soreness as long as its not terrible, which would be odd for anyone other than complete novice or after a lay off anyway.

    Many ways to skin a cat though.

    My typical
    Sbb
    Dbs
    X
    Sbb
    Dbd
    I generally only get noticeably sore from squat and deadlift variants, but soreness was off the charts last week after a 5-day layoff. I did 3 sets of RDLs at RPE 6.5-7 on the Monday and still wasn't completely healed 5 days later. Usually I'd be fine after 36-48 hours.
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  12. #42
    Registered User RapidFail's Avatar
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    I've been running into some recovery issues with this program and would appreciate some feedback. You can see my training log for full details:

    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=179849563

    In short, my glutes never seem to fully recover doing this program. This seems to have been exacerbated by taking a 5-day holiday then jumping straight back into the program, but it's 15 days since the holiday now and I'm still failing to recover in time to train glutes and hamstrings. I'm considering switching the Bulgarian Split Squats for step ups or perhaps for another upper body lift.
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  13. #43
    Time is Muscle ECGordyn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RapidFail View Post
    DAY 1
    Bench 4 x 3-5
    Row 4 x 4-6
    Triceps 3 x 12-15*
    Calf raises 3 x 12-15*

    DAY 2
    Squat 4 x 3-5
    RDL 3 x 6-8
    Pull Ups 3 x 6-8*
    Biceps 3 x 8-12*

    REST

    DAY 3
    OHP 4 x 5-7
    Push Ups 4 x AMRAP*
    Leg Curls 3 x 15-20*
    Neck work 3 x 15-20*

    DAY 4
    Chin Up 4 x 6-8
    Close grip bench 3 x 8-12
    Single leg 3 x 6-8*
    Lateral raises 3 x 12-15*

    DAY 5
    Deadlift 4 x 3-5
    Front squat 3 x 6-8
    DB rows 3 x 8-12*
    Calf raises 3 x 15-20*

    Deload every 4 weeks. On deload weeks, do 2 sets of all exercises at the lower end of rep range with the weight reduced by 10%.

    Use wave loading progression for main lifts
    use double progression for accessory lifts marked with a *

    All lifts are performed to a 1st set RPE of 8.
    Do you have any time constraints that you need a short workout each day? If not, most of that could easily be spread over 4 days instead of 5.

    DAY 1
    Squat 4 x 3-5
    Bench 4 x 3-5
    Triceps 3 x 12-15*
    Calf raises 3 x 12-15*

    DAY 2
    RDL 3 x 6-8
    Leg Curls 3 x 15-20*
    Row 4 x 4-6
    Pull Ups 3 x 6-8*
    Biceps 3 x 8-12*

    REST

    DAY 3
    Front squat 3 x 6-8
    Close grip bench 3 x 8-12
    OHP 4 x 5-7
    Chin Up 4 x 6-8
    Neck work 3 x 15-20*

    DAY 4
    Deadlift 4 x 3-5
    Single leg 3 x 6-8*
    DB rows 3 x 8-12*
    Push Ups 4 x AMRAP*
    Calf raises 3 x 15-20*
    Lateral raises 3 x 12-15*

    Optional in italics. Drop the single leg.
    2020 maxes
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    Workout Journal: https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=175647011&p=1630928323&viewfull=1#post1630928323
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  14. #44
    Registered User RapidFail's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ECGordyn View Post
    Do you have any time constraints that you need a short workout each day? If not, most of that could easily be spread over 4 days instead of 5.

    DAY 1
    Squat 4 x 3-5
    Bench 4 x 3-5
    Triceps 3 x 12-15*
    Calf raises 3 x 12-15*

    DAY 2
    RDL 3 x 6-8
    Leg Curls 3 x 15-20*
    Row 4 x 4-6
    Pull Ups 3 x 6-8*
    Biceps 3 x 8-12*

    REST

    DAY 3
    Front squat 3 x 6-8
    Close grip bench 3 x 8-12
    OHP 4 x 5-7
    Chin Up 4 x 6-8
    Neck work 3 x 15-20*

    DAY 4
    Deadlift 4 x 3-5
    Single leg 3 x 6-8*
    DB rows 3 x 8-12*
    Push Ups 4 x AMRAP*
    Calf raises 3 x 15-20*
    Lateral raises 3 x 12-15*

    Optional in italics. Drop the single leg.
    Yes - I usually work out in the morning before work, so I prefer doing more, shorter workouts. With the original 5-day version, I can do Days 1-4 in under 50 minutes (day 3 in under 40 minutes) while Day 5 takes about an hour, but I've done that on Saturdays. I currently get up at 4:45am to train and would rather not have to get up earlier.

    That said, I made a 4-day version which is a few posts above (because I will have to stop training on Saturdays). I haven't started doing it yet, though - not particularly looking forward to it because it will mean getting up at 4:30am to train.
    Last edited by RapidFail; 04-27-2021 at 07:19 PM.
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  15. #45
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    Originally Posted by RapidFail View Post
    I've been running into some recovery issues with this program and would appreciate some feedback. You can see my training log for full details:

    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=179849563

    In short, my glutes never seem to fully recover doing this program. This seems to have been exacerbated by taking a 5-day holiday then jumping straight back into the program, but it's 15 days since the holiday now and I'm still failing to recover in time to train glutes and hamstrings. I'm considering switching the Bulgarian Split Squats for step ups or perhaps for another upper body lift.
    honestly you could probably drop the single leg work. I think they are overrated as far as strength/hypertrophy are concerned. Pick something like leg extensions which generally aren't very fatiguing. Try and see how that goes.

    I also kind of agree with spreading it over 4 days, that extra rest day could be huge and even when volume equated, could be beneficial as far as just getting an additional day's rest without having to worry about going to the gym. But maybe you should try small changes first and try to troubleshoot your issue rather than going to that. I always prefer 4 days because it's a good balance in my life personally. Volume wise I don't think it should really be too much for you unless you are somehow overshooting RPEs on your main lifts. Usually when coming from a vacation or layoff I start with less volume and take two weeks before really getting into a program. That's around the time where I stop feeling as sore. I pick a reasonably heavy weight, i.e: 75-80% and maybe do like 2 sets of 3-5 for the first session and some light accessories.
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  16. #46
    Registered User RapidFail's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sooby View Post
    honestly you could probably drop the single leg work. I think they are overrated as far as strength/hypertrophy are concerned. Pick something like leg extensions which generally aren't very fatiguing. Try and see how that goes.

    I also kind of agree with spreading it over 4 days, that extra rest day could be huge and even when volume equated, could be beneficial as far as just getting an additional day's rest without having to worry about going to the gym. But maybe you should try small changes first and try to troubleshoot your issue rather than going to that. I always prefer 4 days because it's a good balance in my life personally. Volume wise I don't think it should really be too much for you unless you are somehow overshooting RPEs on your main lifts. Usually when coming from a vacation or layoff I start with less volume and take two weeks before really getting into a program. That's around the time where I stop feeling as sore. I pick a reasonably heavy weight, i.e: 75-80% and maybe do like 2 sets of 3-5 for the first session and some light accessories.
    No leg extensions for me as I don't have the equipment for them (home gym). For now I'm just going to do some ab work in place of the single leg exercise. I swapped BORs for dumbbell rows this morning to spare my hamstrings which are still very tight. I think I'll probably have to give RDLs a miss tomorrow as well.
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