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  1. #31
    Unregistered User MyEgoProblem's Avatar
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    So.
    If you have gone from sets of 5-8 with xlbs and to increase loads you had to Rest pause or cluster the sets

    You didn't get stronger (or not strong enough fast enough to keep up with loading) You just rested longer between reps and spiked exertion.

    Its is why we need to be honest with exertion level and not let the parameters shift just to add load/reps arbitrarily.

    Good that you identified and caught this cluster situation early.
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  2. #32
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    So.
    If you have gone from sets of 5-8 with xlbs and to increase loads you had to Rest pause or cluster the sets

    You didn't get stronger (or not strong enough fast enough to keep up with loading) You just rested longer between reps and spiked exertion.

    Its is why we need to be honest with exertion level and not let the parameters shift just to add load/reps arbitrarily.

    Good that you identified and caught this cluster situation early.
    Yeah you couldn't of said it better. I know I got stronger to a degree at first and then couldn't keep up anymore as well on certain exercises. On exercises like ohp where I maintained the reps back to back, I ended up falling beneath my target rep range of 5-8 down to 4. Bench almost ended up the same and then the worst one of all and only exercise that turned into a cluster set was the squat. All other sets for the other exercises are in good shape luckily since I guess I was able to get stronger fast enough on those. If I kept this up for a few more weeks, I think eventually all the exercises would of ended up like my squat. When you think about it, it's easier to do it on a squat because you can just stand there for as long as you want with the bar on your back and take your sweet time.

    I never thought you could also increase exertion by resting between reps though. I was scratching my head thinking how the hell is the lift feeling harder if I'm still getting the same amount of reps on the squat? If I'm really increasing the exertion, the reps should drop instead but nope. It's not just the RPE of an entire set you have to be mindful of, but also the RPE of each rep.
    Last edited by Animal2692; 02-27-2021 at 12:11 AM.
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  3. #33
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    Just for a comparison, after being unfocused and doing random stuff (that generally ended up being less volume more intensity because its easier and quicker).
    I've finally settled back onto structured programming, most my bench volume is 70% for 4-5 reps. This means about 5-7 RPE average.
    Bench is once again progressing better than it has in months.

    Now there is a scattering of @8 but it's mostly either singles, or high rep hype work.
    The mid range strength/hype work is all lower rpe, quick reps. And it simply works consistently.
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  4. #34
    Unregistered User MyEgoProblem's Avatar
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    Given new info.

    A set of 5 rpe 9+ done normally
    Is one hard set with pretty high fatigue

    A cluster set of 5 in 3 chunks @9+
    Is 3 hard sets with very high fatigue

    Could be if that the 2 sets to failure you think you are doing per lift is more akin to 5 or 6 or more to failure per lift per session

    Nervous systems, motor units et al don't know the difference. They just know they have been hammered into submission again.

    Your 6sets rpe 9+ per week may have ramped up to be more like 12-18 rpe 9+ in effect. Add any warmup sets over rpe 6 could be closer to 30 hard sets (over @6) depending how you ramp up to work sets

    Similar reasoning to why we only do one set of widowmakers (or super squat sets) cos they are brutal.

    Take your 10/12 rep max for 20 reps, resting and blowing out your arse till its done. Can be as much as 10 mini sets on a bad day
    Last edited by MyEgoProblem; 02-27-2021 at 06:31 AM.
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  5. #35
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    Given new info.

    A set of 5 rpe 9+ done normally
    Is one hard set with pretty high fatigue

    A cluster set of 5 in 3 chunks @9+
    Is 3 hard sets with very high fatigue

    Could be if that the 2 sets to failure you think you are doing per lift is more akin to 5 or 6 or more to failure per lift per session

    Nervous systems, motor units et al don't know the difference. They just know they have been hammered into submission again.

    Your 6sets rpe 9+ per week may have ramped up to be more like 12-18 rpe 9+ in effect. Add any warmup sets over rpe 6 could be closer to 30 hard sets (over @6) depending how you ramp up to work sets

    Similar reasoning to why we only do one set of widowmakers (or super squat sets) cos they are brutal.

    Take your 10/12 rep max for 20 reps, resting and blowing out your arse till its done. Can be as much as 10 mini sets on a bad day
    So 1 rep at rpe 9 is just as taxing as a set of 5 rpe 9. All my squat sets turned into rest pause because I kept adding weight. Average is 6 reps a set so that really does come out to 18 weekly hard sets of squats. Damn, your math checks out. I never looked at this way before and I've been making this mistake forever, it's a habit. Last week when I added 10lbs to my squat, it took me nearly 20 seconds to complete 5 reps and I thought, "I got 5 reps hell yeah! Time to get 6 or 7 next workout." No one explains that this is why you don't want to add weight too fast. I'm taking some weight off my squat lol. Everything else is fine but I will deff make sure to do all reps back to back and less rpe with more volume
    Last edited by Animal2692; 02-27-2021 at 09:14 AM.
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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    So 1 rep at rpe 9 is just as taxing as a set of 5 rpe 9. All my squat sets turned into rest pause because I kept adding weight. Average is 6 reps a set so that really does come out to 18 weekly hard sets of squats. Damn, your math checks out. I never looked at this way before and I've been making this mistake forever, it's a habit. Last week when I added 10lbs to my squat, it took me nearly 20 seconds to complete 5 reps and I thought, "I got 5 reps hell yeah! Time to get 6 or 7 next workout." No one explains that this is why you don't want to add weight too fast. I'm taking some weight off my squat lol. Everything else is fine but I will deff make sure to do all reps back to back and less rpe with more volume
    Lots of people explain why you shouldn’t do this.

    As I said earlier watch Eric helms muscle and strength pyramid videos.

    Grab the books and educate yourself on some of the programming and underlying concepts.
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  7. #37
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    Lots of people explain why you shouldn’t do this.

    As I said earlier watch Eric helms muscle and strength pyramid videos.

    Grab the books and educate yourself on some of the programming and underlying concepts.

    I mean yeah they do explain it but it's too vague at times. If you tell me don't add weight too fast, I'll think ok, I won't add 30lbs but I'll add 10lbs instead since I'm still able to get prescribed amount of reps with it while totally disregarding the fact that now the reps are turning into rest pause. I'll be like, you said don't add weight too quick or form will break down but I'll end up finding a different way to compensate.

    You'll be surprised to hear this but I've watched the pyramid videos and a lot of other online content from him so it's not like I'm uninitiated to Helms. Haven't read any of his books though. His stuff is really good. My issue is that I'll cherry pick and want to put certain things to the test. For example he will say going failure builds up a lot of fatigue so I automatically think, "Ok, then I'll just lower volume to compensate. When one goes up the other must come down just like he said." My biggest sticking point has always been balancing volume with intensity and as you know that's the next most important level of the pyramid after adherence.
    Last edited by Animal2692; 02-27-2021 at 11:18 AM.
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  8. #38
    Registered User Filmbuff81's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    I mean yeah they do explain it but it's too vague. If you tell me don't add weight too fast, I'll think ok, I won't add 30lbs but I'll add 10lbs instead since I'm still able to get prescribed amount of reps with it while totally disregarding the fact that now the reps are turning into rest pause.

    You'll be surprised to hear this but I've watched the pyramid videos and a lot of other online content from him so it's not like I'm uninitiated to Helms. Haven't read any of his books though. His stuff is really good. My issue is that I'll cherry pick and want to put certain things to the test. For example he will say going failure builds up a lot of fatigue so I automatically think, "Ok, then I'll just lower volume to compensate. When one goes up the other must come down just like he said." My biggest sticking point has always been balancing volume with intensity and as you know that's the next most important level of the pyramid after adherence.
    Well if you’re only gonna cherry pick the parts you like you’re only getting half the picture.

    but also if you read stuff most people will say add 2.5-5lbs to a upper body lift weekly and 5-10lbs on a lower body lift.

    The books and many articles discuss progression schemes too.

    For example on Andy Morgan’s website he lays out the whole intermediate program and the wave loaded linear Periodization model utilized.
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  9. #39
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    Well if you’re only gonna cherry pick the parts you like you’re only getting half the picture.

    but also if you read stuff most people will say add 2.5-5lbs to a upper body lift weekly and 5-10lbs on a lower body lift.

    The books and many articles discuss progression schemes too.

    For example on Andy Morgan’s website he lays out the whole intermediate program and the wave loaded linear Periodization model utilized.
    Yeah I'm aware about adding no more than 5lbs to an upper body lift and 10lbs to a lower body lift. I've added no more than 10lbs at a time to squats but there's so many more variables that's the thing it's almost like playing wack-a-mole. You think you're doing everything right when in reality you can have blindspots. I will say that you could get away with adding more than 5lbs to upper body lifts depending how many reps you build up to. If you go from 5-10 reps, you can make bigger increases for example.
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  10. #40
    Unregistered User MyEgoProblem's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    So 1 rep at rpe 9 is just as taxing as a set of 5 rpe 9. All my squat sets turned into rest pause because I kept adding weight. Average is 6 reps a set so that really does come out to 18 weekly hard sets of squats. Damn, your math checks out. I never looked at this way before and I've been making this mistake forever, it's a habit. Last week when I added 10lbs to my squat, it took me nearly 20 seconds to complete 5 reps and I thought, "I got 5 reps hell yeah! Time to get 6 or 7 next workout." No one explains that this is why you don't want to add weight too fast. I'm taking some weight off my squat lol. Everything else is fine but I will deff make sure to do all reps back to back and less rpe with more volume
    1@9 is a Hardy set for sure regardless.
    Maybe not super taxing fresh, but heavily fatigued after an AMRAP to @9+
    Its gonna be a killer. Especially if that too is followed by another.

    And yeah my math checks out xD there is a nasty rumour going around that I know what the **** I'm doing.... I'm no elite coach but I take people to British nationals totals, strong man Inters and put slabs of meat on them.
    Last edited by MyEgoProblem; 02-27-2021 at 02:11 PM.
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  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Yeah I'm aware about adding no more than 5lbs to an upper body lift and 10lbs to a lower body lift. I've added no more than 10lbs at a time to squats but there's so many more variables that's the thing it's almost like playing wack-a-mole. You think you're doing everything right when in reality you can have blindspots. I will say that you could get away with adding more than 5lbs to upper body lifts depending how many reps you build up to. If you go from 5-10 reps, you can make bigger increases for example.
    Training is not whack a mole if you keep training constant and only change one variable at a time for 8-12 weeks and reassess.

    You’re trying to keep track of multiple variables so of course you feel like it’s a massive guessing game.

    Training IS a guessing game, but if you have a SYSTEM in place then you can analyze and make adjustments as needed to make it less of a guess.

    Establish a proper system and follow it

    Also you’re making a presumption again about weight increases.

    Not everyone is the same.
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  12. #42
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    This thread reminds me of the situation I was in after 3-5 months doing Fierce 5. I was able to squat 5 x 60kg (132lb) with clean form, but the last set was an RPE 10. I increased the weight by the prescribed 5kg to 65kg (143lb) and I failed on the next two workouts, reset to 55kg and built back up.

    60kg was a bit easier the second time around, probably an RPE 9-9.5 on the last set. When I attempted 65kg the second time I was so determined to progress that I was taking three deep breaths between reps and used poor form (lifting the hips first, then the back because my quads weren't strong enough) to get the last rep or two. After the third 'successful' set, I was close to vomiting and so fatigued that my performance dropped for all the remaining exercises.

    When I attempted 70kg the next week, I felt a tingling sensation in my back on the second rep, and a sharp pain on the third. It took 5 weeks of physio before I was able to squat or RDL again and more like 10 weeks until I was 100% recovered.

    In summary - be consistent with your form and exertion levels and don't kid yourself into thinking you're progressing when you're not, it's just not worth it.
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    Just got done with this Sunday workout. RPE hasn't dropped for any of my lifts with these 2 rest days so I ended up reducing weight on almost everything especially to keep the reps going without any rest pause. Did everything at RPE 8, a set here and there was RPE 9 on isolations only. 1 set added to everything as well. Finally feels like lifting normally again. I pretty much just went in saying **** the weight and focused on doing sets of RPE 8..dropping reps/weight as needed to stay in the 5-8 range every set. Not the best thing for my ego but damn I felt a lot better throughout and after. Dynamic double progression is hands down my favorite way to train. Takes the pressure off from doing a certain amount of weight for certain amount of reps and trying to beat the logbook altogether. Just focus on ~RPE 8 in a preferred rep range for x amount of sets and call it a day.
    Last edited by Animal2692; 02-28-2021 at 12:49 PM.
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    2 days of rest isn’t going to be enough time to reduce fatigue.

    You would need an actual deload.
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    2 days of rest isn’t going to be enough time to reduce fatigue.

    You would need an actual deload.
    I was thinking the same but damn this is only start of my 3rd week hoisting iron. Maybe just maintaining the way I trained today for this week will be enough to reduce fatigue? Because I don't think I accumulated fatigue as much as I could have if I kept up the way I was training for another good 2 weeks or so.
    Last edited by Animal2692; 02-28-2021 at 01:09 PM.
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    Try it and if things still feel rough do an actual deload.
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    Try it and if things still feel rough do an actual deload.
    I learned a valuable lesson in lifting. When you add weight too fast, there are 2 main outcomes: intensity keeps climbing to the point where you overreach as long as volume is kept the same, or volume ends up getting reduced to nil to compensate so either way you're ****ed. I play a lot of chess so it's a lot like checkmating yourself lol.
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    I learned a valuable lesson in lifting. When you add weight too fast, there are 2 main outcomes: intensity keeps climbing to the point where you overreach as long as volume is kept the same, or volume ends up getting reduced to nil to compensate so either way you're ****ed. I play a lot of chess so it's a lot like checkmating yourself lol.
    You’re not the first or the last person to have learned this lesson the hard way.

    I think most of us in the beginning having been guilty of wanting to push weight and intensity too fast.
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    Just wrapped up this week. Increased volume from 6 to 9 weekly hard sets and stopped going to failure, going for 7-8 rpe on the compounds and 9+ for isolations. I also decreased the weight on most of my lifts to keep the reps moving normally with no more rest pause grinding from the first rep. I'm doing everything right on paper this time. I haven't been rushing the progression at all this time. I've been adding a rep at a time each workout on all lifts except for isolations. Problem is the progression seems to be extremely slow, I feel like it needs to be much faster at my level. I feel great each workout too. Am I just being impatient at this point since I'm so used to throwing on weight and reps quick? I mean I went to down to work with a 145lb close grip bench without grinding from the first rep. I'm expecting to add 10lbs a week lol but maybe I'm impatient like I said. Part of me tells me I should hit a 225 bench in 4 months. Is it just me at this point?
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Just wrapped up this week. Increased volume from 6 to 9 weekly hard sets and stopped going to failure, going for 7-8 rpe on the compounds and 9+ for isolations. I also decreased the weight on most of my lifts to keep the reps moving normally with no more rest pause grinding from the first rep. I'm doing everything right on paper this time. I haven't been rushing the progression at all this time. I've been adding a rep at a time each workout on all lifts except for isolations. Problem is the progression seems to be extremely slow, I feel like it needs to be much faster at my level. I feel great each workout too. Am I just being impatient at this point since I'm so used to throwing on weight and reps quick? I mean I went to down to work with a 145lb close grip bench without grinding from the first rep. I'm expecting to add 10lbs a week lol but maybe I'm impatient like I said. Part of me tells me I should hit a 225 bench in 4 months. Is it just me at this point?
    Dude it's been a 1 week of "everything right on paper". You're not a total beginner anymore so not sure what you're expecting. You can find good programs that'll give you some of the freedom you'd like, but can also save you from your evil side always pulling you in the wrong direction.
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    Dude it's been a 1 week of "everything right on paper". You're not a total beginner anymore so not sure what you're expecting. You can find good programs that'll give you some of the freedom you'd like, but can also save you from your evil side always pulling you in the wrong direction.
    Well my routine isn't very different at this point. Full body 3x a week, 9 weekly hard sets @ 7-8 except for isolations. Leaving 2-3 in the tank on the compounds. It just sucks because I'm going in and only doing a rep more on almost all sets, every workout without trying. **** it, you're right. It's only been a week doing everything right, I'm going to give it 5 more weeks to get a better idea after 6 weeks training right without trying to rush things or killing myself every set.
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    I’m pretty sure the consensus was you’re way too impatient.

    Not really sure what you’re expecting?

    You’re too wrapped up in numbers.

    Unless you’re gonna be a powerlifter chillout and even then chillout.
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    Sounds like how 90%+ of workouts should be.
    #punching the clock

    👍

    I Dont remember the last time I had an "exciting" session mid block. That post noob life tho.
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    I’m pretty sure the consensus was you’re way too impatient.

    Not really sure what you’re expecting?

    You’re too wrapped up in numbers.

    Unless you’re gonna be a powerlifter chillout and even then chillout.
    I've always been the type to suffer from too much ambition in all areas of life.
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    Actually things don't seem too bad long term. If I add 10lbs a month to my close grip bench, that's 100lbs by the end of the year, I'll be benching 245 for reps. Squat would be in 300s. I added 20lbs to my bench in the first 2 weeks and expected at least 20lbs a month on it. I just need to be doing this long enough to gain more confidence in the process.
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    If you ever interview for a job you should use this if they ask, "What would you say is your biggest weakness?"

    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    I've always been the type to suffer from too much ambition in all areas of life.
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    If you ever interview for a job you should use this if they ask, "What would you say is your biggest weakness?"
    I remember back when I was getting trained to get my class A CDL for driving a semi, I was turning the temperature dial to either the coldest or warmest setting. My trainer was all like, "I can tell you're pretty young, everything to the max with you, nothing in-between. Listen, you've got to pace yourself man..you don't wanna be a 2 pump warrior with your old lady."
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    I find it funny you’re thinking “long term” but it’s only a year.

    Do you wanna total 2000lbs or something?
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    I find it funny you’re thinking “long term” but it’s only a year.

    Do you wanna total 2000lbs or something?
    I never stayed consistent AND doing everything right for a whole year before. So one years feels like a lot to me and so I'm looking forward to making most of the gains I'll ever make before **** reallyyyyy starts to slow way down.
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    I never stayed consistent AND doing everything right for a whole year before. So one years feels like a lot to me and so I'm looking forward to making most of the gains I'll ever make before **** reallyyyyy starts to slow way down.
    If you're still training in your 40s and beyond, you're going to look back and laugh at all the maximizing gains in minimal time stuff. Just gain, don't burn out and don't get seriously injured... be in it for the long haul.
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