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  1. #1
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Can anyone explain what's happening now?

    Alright so this where I'm inexperienced at when it comes to lifting. After 2 weeks of hitting the weights hard at 6 weekly sets, full body 3x a week split, progress is looking like it's about to come to a halt. I've made rapid progress on every single lift adding weight and reps left and right very naturally. It just doesn't make sense to drop back down to where I started at when it all feels so easy now. Form on everything is still great but the lifts are starting to feel like a grind. I feel great throughout the day and my sleep and diet has been on point so I don't see how I could be overreaching after just 2 weeks at such a low volume. What I'm wondering is if now my issue is volume being too low as maybe a lot of that rapid progress was neural. At the same time I don't know if increasing the volume is going to bury me and make things worse. If I was to increase the volume, I'm thinking going up to 9 weekly sets l, adding 1 set to everything on all 3 days.

    But yeah this is where I don't know what to make of what's going on. Is it really not enough volume? Overreaching? Already past novice stage?

    Current strength level
    Squat: 5x215lb
    Overhead press: 4x135lb
    Close grip bench: 5x175lb
    Weighted chin up: 5x55lb

    Bodyweight is 150lbs at 5'8". Bodyfat is somewhere around 16%. Eating at maintenance trying to recomp. I got a friend at same weight & height benching 5x225 which tells me chances are I still have room to progress before having to lean bulk.
    Last edited by Animal2692; 02-26-2021 at 10:38 AM.
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    Registered User WolfRose7's Avatar
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    Poor intensity management tends to display in early overreaching and stalling
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    Seriously?

    I understand if you've wanted to ignore it, but do you not even recall all the suggestions from folks every time you talk about the only way you know how to lift is all out to failure, RPE 10, prime time gains, every set, every lift, every workout?
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    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by WolfRose7 View Post
    Poor intensity management tends to display in early overreaching and stalling
    From some videos I've posted around here some people have said my overhead press looked to be around 8.5 rpe at the most. The weekly volume is so low though that's what puzzles me. I don't even do high intensity techniques.
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    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    Seriously?

    I understand if you've wanted to ignore it, but do you not even recall all the suggestions from folks every time you talk about the only way you know how to lift is all out to failure, RPE 10, prime time gains, every set, every lift, every workout?
    But like I replied to the other guy, my weekly volume is so low and I've been told my overhead press looked like an rpe 8.5 at the most so I guess I wasn't truly going to failure after all? 🤔
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    But like I replied to the other guy, my weekly volume is so low and I've been told my overhead press looked like an rpe 8.5 at the most so I guess I wasn't truly going to failure after all?
    One guy said that. I think I thought 9+, but not 10. You (the one that matters since this is all subjective) felt you were at 10. The point is you feel like you're going all out to failure every set, and you do that across the board and don't change it over time.
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    Stay further from failure and increase volume.
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    Lol I said on one video you looked like a 8.5 which is MAYBE 2 reps for sure only 1 in the tank.

    And I based it on the fact you claimed to go to absolute failure EVERY SET.

    And as mentioned above it’s subjective, I was mainly giving you **** for extolling the virtues of high intensity low volume lifting, when you’re an inexperienced novice lifter making countless posts and suggestions to other inexperienced lifters.

    However my point was much larger which is exactly what just happened.

    You’re stalling out because you’re hammering into failure over and over and trying to do this for weeks on end with little volume.

    Learn how to use RPE properly and add more volume and stay 2-4 reps shy from failure vs driving into 8.5-10 on every compound.
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    Registered User Ghawk21's Avatar
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    What was your progression method? If you tossed on weights too quickly of course you'll hit a wall. Its another reason we tell noobies not to do their own programming, complete lack of fatigue management.

    That being said, at some point, lifting does get hard. You'll fail sets. Its why most programs have a deload protocol. If you could add 5-10lbs every week for ever then we would all be huge.
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    Registered User WolfRose7's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    From some videos I've posted around here some people have said my overhead press looked to be around 8.5 rpe at the most. The weekly volume is so low though that's what puzzles me. I don't even do high intensity techniques.
    Drop average rpe, add weekly sets.
    Test for a bit and see if it helps
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    Registered User Filmbuff81's Avatar
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    At the very least I would suggest anyone new to training who pops in here to at least watch Eric helms old muscle and strength pyramid YouTube videos.

    Reading his books and also the new RP hypertrophy book would be beneficial.

    And anything Mike T related will also swell your brain to think critically about training and programming.
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  12. #12
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ghawk21 View Post
    What was your progression method? If you tossed on weights too quickly of course you'll hit a wall. Its another reason we tell noobies not to do their own programming, complete lack of fatigue management.

    That being said, at some point, lifting does get hard. You'll fail sets. Its why most programs have a deload protocol. If you could add 5-10lbs every week for ever then we would all be huge.
    Just dynamic double progression where I try to maintain a high RPE each set and drop weight/reps if I have to from fatigue.
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    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by WolfRose7 View Post
    Drop average rpe, add weekly sets.
    Test for a bit and see if it helps
    I'll do just that and go up to 9 weekly sets. I'm going to try to maintain the current weights and reps to see if RPE will at least drop for them. Got 2 days off coming up here so at least some adaptation should take place.
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Just dynamic double progression where I try to maintain a high RPE each set and drop weight/reps if I have to from fatigue.
    Like I said on that thread, you're not really doing RPE if you're just going balls to the wall every single time. Take the advice above and increase volume and back off a little or at least be more selective about your RPE 10 stuff. When you read/watch stuff, don't just selectively retain info that suits what you like to do and forget the rest.

    Better yet, pick one of the programs you see people like WR and MyEP recommending on here all the time. A lot of those prob suit your personality and will save you from yourself at the same time.

    Even those of us who call you out on your bs so there's a warning sticker for novices reading your educational posts, still try to give you help when there's a chance that you'll listen.
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    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    Lol I said on one video you looked like a 8.5 which is MAYBE 2 reps for sure only 1 in the tank.

    And I based it on the fact you claimed to go to absolute failure EVERY SET.

    And as mentioned above it’s subjective, I was mainly giving you **** for extolling the virtues of high intensity low volume lifting, when you’re an inexperienced novice lifter making countless posts and suggestions to other inexperienced lifters.

    However my point was much larger which is exactly what just happened.

    You’re stalling out because you’re hammering into failure over and over and trying to do this for weeks on end with little volume.

    Learn how to use RPE properly and add more volume and stay 2-4 reps shy from failure vs driving into 8.5-10 on every compound.
    Well some novices have other issues like thinking they have to train within 8-12 reps to build any muscle or believing they need to hit bis from 6 different angles with no knowledge that they have to get stronger to get bigger. I talk to these people in the gym and they think training for size is different than training for strength and I just shake my head. At least I have a clue about that sort of stuff.

    My initial hypothesis was that if volume is kept low enough, then going to failure wouldn't be an issue, it only seems logical. You can't train hard and long, you increase one you gotta decrease the other
    Last edited by Animal2692; 02-26-2021 at 01:13 PM.
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    Like I said on that thread, you're not really doing RPE if you're just going balls to the wall every single time. Take the advice above and increase volume and back off a little or at least be more selective about your RPE 10 stuff. When you read/watch stuff, don't just selectively retain info that suits what you like to do and forget the rest.

    Better yet, pick one of the programs you see people like WR and MyEP recommending on here all the time. A lot of those prob suit your personality and will save you from yourself at the same time.

    Even those of us who call you out on your bs so there's a warning sticker for novices reading your educational posts, still try to give you help when there's a chance that you'll listen.
    I got you, I was trying to put something to the test: making progress with failure only by keeping volume low enough to compensate. I'm going to increase from 6 to 9 weekly sets and maintain the current weights and reps to see if RPE will at least drop for them and not go below 3 RIR afterwards ever again on compounds at least lol. If that fails then I'll pick a program.
    Last edited by Animal2692; 02-26-2021 at 02:23 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    I got you, I was trying to put something to the test: making progress with failure only by keeping volume low enough to compensate.
    You can, and you did - but you noticed that people said you'd hit a wall quickly, and now you know quickly was 2 weeks.

    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    I'm going to increase from 6 to 9 weekly sets and maintain the current weights and reps to see if RPE will at least drop for them and not go below 3 RIR afterwards ever again lol. If that fails then I'll pick a program.
    Personally I suggest dropping weight slightly since you were at RPE 10 and now you're increasing volume, but do what you prefer.
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    You can, and you did - but you noticed that people said you'd hit a wall quickly, and now you know quickly was 2 weeks.



    Personally I suggest dropping weight slightly since you were at RPE 10 and now you're increasing volume, but do what you prefer.
    I mean if you look at the rest of my routine, there's nothing inherently wrong with it. Full body 3x a week, I even threw in some isolations so it's no longer minimalistic in nature, got a great exercise selection. Volume is definitely not too high (which is an epidemic nowadays). No reason to program hop.

    I want to see out of curiosity if these 2 full rest days are going to make a difference for RPE going down on current weights/reps. If it's gone down, I won't change anything on those first two sets and let it keep dropping to 3 RIR. Luckily it's only been 2 weeks so maybe accumulated fatigue isn't as high as it could've been. 3rd additional set will definitely be 3 RIR. I'll report back on that Sunday

    I'm still dumbfounded as to how the hell going to failure and very low volume still makes you hit a wall quick. I thought the low volume would compensate or maybe I just really underestimated how fatiguing going to failure really is. I keep thinking 2 RIR is only 2 reps from failure, how much worse could it get?
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    I mean if you look at the rest of my routine, there's nothing inherently wrong with it. Full body 3x a week, I even threw in some isolations so it's no longer minimalistic in nature, got a great exercise selection. Volume is definitely not too high (which is an epidemic nowadays). No reason to program hop.

    I want to see out of curiosity if these 2 full rest days are going to make a difference for RPE going down on current weights/reps. If it's gone down, I won't change anything on those first two sets and let it keep dropping to 3 RIR. Luckily it's only been 2 weeks so maybe accumulated fatigue isn't as high as it could've been. 3rd additional set will definitely be 3 RIR. I'll report back on that Sunday

    I'm still dumbfounded as to how the hell going to failure and very low volume still makes you hit a wall quick. I thought the low volume would compensate or maybe I just really underestimated how fatiguing going to failure really is. I keep thinking 2 RIR is only 2 reps from failure, how much worse could it get?
    This was your help me thread, but you're welcome to keep trying it your way.
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    This was your help me thread, but you're welcome to keep trying it your way.
    What do you mean? I've already acknowledged that I'm going to make said changes. Increase volume, lower RPE.
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    What do you mean? I've already acknowledged that I'm going to make said changes. Increase volume, lower RPE.
    Eh, maybe I read your approach above wrong, but sounded like you were increasing volume but seeing if RPE would decrease automatically with 2 days off. Doesn't matter to me, it'll work itself out eventually.

    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    I'm going to increase from 6 to 9 weekly sets and maintain the current weights and reps to see if RPE will at least drop for them
    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    I want to see out of curiosity if these 2 full rest days are going to make a difference for RPE going down on current weights/reps.
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    Eh, maybe I read your approach above wrong, but sounded like you were increasing volume but seeing if RPE would decrease automatically with 2 days off. Doesn't matter to me, it'll work itself out eventually.
    No no lol, the additional volume that I'm adding is going to be less RPE no matter what. But I want to see if RPE has fallen for my current work before assuming I have to decrease the weight. I busted my ass to get to it so I got some ego invested in it, it would be nice to see if I can "save it" at least. I got 175lb for 5 on cgbp last week. If I can manage the same but feel like I got 2 more reps left, I'll leave it as is. I'll repeat those sets for the next few workouts after in hopes of RPE dropping further and then finally I'll slowly start adding a rep or so at a time.
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    I haven't been able to let this go so I've been thinking about it all day because there was one thing that wouldn't make any sense to me. How come people stall when the weights get too heavy even though they're still hitting their rep range? If they are still doing the amount of reps reps they planned on then that means they already have the strength and the weight can't be too heavy. This confusion is what has kept me trapped in not backing off. I compared my sets of when I first started to my sets of right now on the lifts that really feel like a grind and I noticed that my sets now have been turning into basically a set of rest pause reps. In my mind I'm thinking I'm still hitting 5 reps, I'm strong enough. But looking at it more closely, I sure as hell take seconds between each rep now. I've been confusing a high RPE set with individual high RPE reps strung together for the same amount of reps and equating it. That's what my squats are like for example. The first rep almost feels like a single but I'm still able to bust out 5 as long as I rest enough between each one. No one has ever mentioned this to me nor have I ever read about it anywhere. Simply hearing "the weight is too heavy" isn't enough because if I'm aiming for 5 reps and get 5 reps I don't think it's too heavy, I think I've improved since I'm using more weight.

    Why isn't the gap between reps talked about of more as something to be mindful of? Apparently it's incredibly misleading to equate 5 back to back reps to 5 reps done with 3 sec. pause between each one. I've been training this way for years on end not knowing what's going on.
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    Just don't get discouraged when you find you're not quite as strong when you up the volume. Provided everything else in in place, you should get some hypertrophy, which will result in increased strength, it might just take a while.
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    I'm still dumbfounded as to how the hell going to failure and very low volume still makes you hit a wall quick. I thought the low volume would compensate or maybe I just really underestimated how fatiguing going to failure really is. I keep thinking 2 RIR is only 2 reps from failure, how much worse could it get?
    Not too sure where the confusion is. Number of hard sets is the metric you should be following for gauging total workload. 0-4 RIR are equal regarding what constitutes a hard set, except the fatigue you accumulate exponentially increases the closer you approach failure. The extra rep or two you get by going to failure pales in comparison to adding an additional set to increase total workload.

    So with 0-4 RIR essentially being equal to a single set, and the extra rep or two you get from failure not adding much to your total workload, your question now becomes “why does doing very low volume make you stall quickly?”

    Because the volume is too low.
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    Originally Posted by leidenesLK View Post
    Not too sure where the confusion is. Number of hard sets is the metric you should be following for gauging total workload. 0-4 RIR are equal regarding what constitutes a hard set, except the fatigue you accumulate exponentially increases the closer you approach failure. The extra rep or two you get by going to failure pales in comparison to adding an additional set to increase total workload.

    So with 0-4 RIR essentially being equal to a single set, and the extra rep or two you get from failure not adding much to your total workload, your question now becomes “why does doing very low volume make you stall quickly?”

    Because the volume is too low.
    Yeah, and it's not just an additional workset, it's 3 I'm adding. So even though 9 sets a week is considered to be on the minimum end, that's still a 50% increase.

    But like I mentioned, the sets on a few of my lifts are starting to turn into rest pause and that's easy to forget about because as long as you're holding onto the bar, you still think you're doing a set of 5 or 6 reps but instead you're doing 5 reps with your 3RM. Those few seconds between reps has to be a type of compensation
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    I really think you need to get back to basics.

    Your training is all over the map.

    Also strength and hypertrophy have similarities; however, moderate volume and rep ranges have been shown to be the most effective for hypertrophy.

    It’s not a huge difference but for the sake of fatigue management and focusing on hypertrophy utilizing the 6-30 rep range tends to work best.

    You can still get strong in the 8-12 rep range, have less overall fatigue and then not get as beat up.

    Yeah 3-5 reps can build muscle but god damn it’s a lot of sets and to match the volume.

    Also everyone who I keep see posting about how you don’t need a million curl variations to get big arms seem to be forgetting there’d a difference between pure size and shape.

    Sure compounds and a few curls will build big arms, but working biceps with a few variations of curls is incredibly beneficial to helping create a more pleasing aesthetic.

    Same as bench press will help build pecs, but using flies, dips, and other variations will build a more rounded physique, same as any other muscle group.
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    I really think you need to get back to basics.

    Your training is all over the map.

    Also strength and hypertrophy have similarities; however, moderate volume and rep ranges have been shown to be the most effective for hypertrophy.

    It’s not a huge difference but for the sake of fatigue management and focusing on hypertrophy utilizing the 6-30 rep range tends to work best.

    You can still get strong in the 8-12 rep range, have less overall fatigue and then not get as beat up.

    Yeah 3-5 reps can build muscle but god damn it’s a lot of sets and to match the volume.

    Also everyone who I keep see posting about how you don’t need a million curl variations to get big arms seem to be forgetting there’d a difference between pure size and shape.

    Sure compounds and a few curls will build big arms, but working biceps with a few variations of curls is incredibly beneficial to helping create a more pleasing aesthetic.

    Same as bench press will help build pecs, but using flies, dips, and other variations will build a more rounded physique, same as any other muscle group.
    This is what I've been doing 3x a week. Gonna be 3 sets each exercise now from 2. I don't do 3-5, I've been doing 5-8 reps. I agree, you need more sets if you going below 5 reps for sure. Using dynamic double progression which is right up there with the rep goal method. Everyone here been saying to raise the volume and decrease RPE, something's finally got to work eventually. What's that saying doing the same thing over and over again expecting diff results is insanity? Lol


    Workout A
    Squat
    RDL
    Close grip bench
    Weighted chin up
    Reverse pec deck
    Standing calf raise

    Workout B
    Squat
    Lying leg curl
    OHP
    Pendlay row
    Hammer curls
    Standing calf raise

    You don't think that's pretty basic?
    Last edited by Animal2692; 02-26-2021 at 10:59 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    This is what I've been doing 3x a week. Gonna be 3 sets each exercise now from 2. I don't do 3-5, I've been doing 5-8 reps. I agree, you need more sets if you going below 5 reps for sure. Using dynamic double progression which is right up there with the rep goal method. Everyone here been saying to raise the volume and decrease RPE, something's finally got to work eventually. What's that saying doing the same thing over and over again expecting diff results is insanity? Lol


    Workout A
    Squat
    RDL
    Close grip bench
    Weighted chin up
    Reverse pec deck
    Standing calf raise

    Workout B
    Squat
    Lying leg curl
    OHP
    Pendlay row
    Hammer curls
    Standing calf raise

    You don't think that's pretty basic?
    By basics I mean implement sound programming concepts vs your slapdash attempts at dynamic double progression low volume failure training.
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    By basics I mean implement sound programming concepts vs your slapdash attempts at dynamic double progression low volume failure training.
    Well after increasing volume and decreasing RPE, I should be golden.
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