Can anyone explain what's happening now?

[MyEgoProblem]

Looks to be an awesome article, exactly what I've been looking after to read. Gonna get on it now.

Edit: just finished reading. He talks about 3x10 being compared to 7x3. If you go lower reps, you need more sets. How low rep can you go before you have to compensate with more sets? I've being going off the "5 effective reps model" so I haven't been going before 5 reps on anything.

Don't go by the 5 effective rep model.
Effectively Debunked as proposed by Beardsley.

Personally I won't do much traditional 'hyp' work below 6or8, frequently takes too long. Generally but not exclusively.

If I do 6s usually 4 sets (4x6)

5s will be 5 sets (5x5)

I'll occasionally do sets of 4s but they will be 6 sets. (6x4)

And if I do 3s I'm Doing ten sets. (10x3)

Anything 8reps and over I'm doing 5 sets (5x8+)

[MyEgoProblem]

Its hard to blame them really...they one that had most of their rocks lined up right With programming. And so made the progress.

Strength guys.
They just mixed up str = size.

Pump guys.
They thinking that pump is all

When it's size = size & strength potential
And strength = strength and skill

Its kinda hard to separate both tho in the real world so it's easy to conflate the two.

[Animal2692]

Don't go by the 5 effective rep model.
Effectively Debunked as proposed by Beardsley.

Personally I won't do much traditional 'hyp' work below 6or8, frequently takes too long. Generally but not exclusively.

If I do 6s usually 4 sets (4x6)

5s will be 5 sets (5x5)

I'll occasionally do sets of 4s but they will be 6 sets. (6x4)

And if I do 3s I'm Doing ten sets. (10x3)

Anything 8reps and over I'm doing 5 sets (5x8+)

Ok so you'd say that ~8 reps minimum per set is solid then? Because I'm keeping track of the amount of weekly hard sets I'm doing and I don't want to leave any volume on the table. If I'm doing 12 hard sets per week of say 4 reps each, I'm leaving volume on the table in terms of reps so to equate it, I'll have to do more like 16 hard sets per week instead or something. I'd rather not dip below reps to the point where I need more sets to compensate. I want to get as much quality volume as possible for the 12 weekly sets per muscle.

If in truth there's up to 12 effective reps in a hard set, I don't want to dip below that thinking there's only 5 or something

In that one link you sent me a while ago, it said there's in fact about 12 effective reps in a set since that's equal to about 70% rm. That means you'd have to do about 2.5x the amount of sets to equate it if you were doing 5s

[MyEgoProblem]

Unless you are doing less than 6 reps with basically strength protocols.. Litterally Forget about how many reps you are doing. Get that crap in the bin. Its an rrelevant metric to track.

Just count the sets that fall in the guidelines. It's 100% counter productive and as much of a waste of time as counting lbs/kgs tonnage to care about individual reps or going too low.

Your goals are obvious. You want to 'optimise' hyp and efficiency, not strength nor minimise intra set fatigue.

No reason to do less than about 8-10 reps on your first set. And likely not under 6 at all. All around @8~

The data shows 3-30@6-10 by studies. VOLUME EQUATED
I anyways recommend 6-15@8~ for very good reasons.
Efficiency and foolproifing coming at the top of the list.

Effective reps needs to be pushed aside..

[Animal2692]

Unless you are doing less than 6 reps with basically strength protocols.. Litterally Forget about how many reps you are doing. Get that crap in the bin. Its an rrelevant metric to track.

Just count the sets that fall in the guidelines. It's 100% counter productive and as much of a waste of time as counting lbs/kgs tonnage to care about individual reps or going too low.

Your goals are obvious. You want to 'optimise' hyp and efficiency, not strength nor minimise intra set fatigue.

No reason to do less than about 8-10 reps on your first set. And likely not under 6 at all. All around @8~

The data shows 3-30@6-10 by studies. VOLUME EQUATED
I anyways recommend 6-15@8~ for very good reasons.
Efficiency and foolproifing coming at the top of the list.

Effective reps needs to be pushed aside..

I gotcha, upping the reps on all my compounds next week and taking even more weight off starting Sunday again.

You say effective reps needs to be pushed aside and I get that the 5 effective rep model is not valid now. Doesn't that mean there still isn't an updated, more accurate effective rep model then? Effective reps as in reps that induce growth. Like I was saying, I've been seeing that reps done with 70% rm are all considered to induce growth. That comes out to about 11-12 reps to failure which means if I want max efficiency, don't go below 10-12 or so.

[Filmbuff81]

I’m not interested in strength right now so my rep ranges are from 5-20.

5 is my heavy row and my heavy strict pull-up. But the range is 5-10 for both.

So even then I aim for the higher side of the range if I can.

Everything else is 6-20.

I aim to improve my weights and reps just not in the traditional “strength” range.

I believe I mentioned in another thread I’ll go for some 1RM stuff like once a year. Maybe twice if I’m feeling bored and need a change.

And of course once I focus on peaking and skill work I almost always hit PRs because I have gotten bigger over the course of the year.

And it’s not like I’m not “strong” I’m just not conditioned to low rep work.

[Filmbuff81]

I gotcha, upping the reps on all my compounds next week and taking even more weight off starting Sunday again.

You say effective reps needs to be pushed aside and I get that the 5 effective rep model is not valid now. Doesn't that mean there still isn't an updated, more accurate effective rep model then? Effective reps as in reps that induce growth. Like I was saying, I've been seeing that reps done with 70% rm are all considered to induce growth. That comes out to about 11-12 reps to failure which means if I want max efficiency, don't go below 10-12 or so.

Having a variety of rep ranges is still beneficial.

Like ego and I have both said.

Size and strength stuff gets conflated a lot and it’s tough to fully separate the two in team life practice.

Don’t be so black and white.

If you wanna have some heavy stuff in the 5-8 ranges it’s not going to make you small.

[Animal2692]

Having a variety of rep ranges is still beneficial.

Like ego and I have both said.

Size and strength stuff gets conflated a lot and it’s tough to fully separate the two in team life practice.

Don’t be so black and white.

If you wanna have some heavy stuff in the 5-8 ranges it’s not going to make you small.

It's not that I think 5-8 reps will make me small, it's more like I want to do what's most efficient for hypertrophy. I'm not trying to be well rounded such as strong and big, just big and if strength wants to come along for the ride, it's more than welcome to..which it would inevitably have to come if muscles are growing but I don't care if that strength isn't where it could be at if I did lower reps. I understand you can't separate them, I'm just willing to leave strength lagging as much as it needs to for hypertrophy's sake.

[Animal2692]

I finally found it again from that link you sent me, ego.
https://ibb.co/PrhMtmG

So it's ~75% rm, all reps will induce growth which is about 10rm. Chris' model says 5 effective reps, that's more like 87% rm. If I do 5 sets of 5 rpe 8 compared to 5 sets of 10 rpe 8, that's a substantial difference in growth. Means I'll start my first set at about 12-13rm to leave 2-3 in the tank at 10 reps. Let's say it doesn't make a huge difference in growth in a given session and it's more like "10% more growth", I'm in this for the long run so that little bit of extra growth each session gonna add up to a lot. Time for all compounds to be about 10-15 reps

[Filmbuff81]

I finally found it again from that link you sent me, ego.
https://ibb.co/PrhMtmG

So it's ~75% rm, all reps will induce growth which is about 10rm. Chris' model says 5 effective reps, that's more like 87% rm. If I do 5 sets of 5 rpe 8 compared to 5 sets of 10 rpe 8, that's a substantial difference in growth. Means I'll start my first set at about 12-13rm to leave 2-3 in the tank at 10 reps. Let's say it doesn't make a huge difference in growth in a given session and it's more like "10% more growth", I'm in this for the long run so that little bit of extra growth each session gonna add up to a lot. Time for all compounds to be about 10-15 reps

75% or whatever it is recruits all motor units but that doesn’t = more growth necessarily.

And I know you don’t think it’ll make you small, but straining against a semi-heavy load is still beneficial.

I wouldn’t neglect the range just because it’s not “optimal”.

Plus moderate amount of sets in moderate rep ranges is usually the sweet spot.

Everything doesn’t have to be 10+ reps unless you just enjoy it more or see better results there.

Just trying to steer you from the black and white thinking.

You’re still applying the all or nothing mentality a bit it seems.

Try to think in shades of grey.

[Animal2692]

Not going to get roped into an endless debate on things you said and are saying now so you can write another 25x-edited reply over an hour... so I'll briefly clarify:



I didn't miss the context, you were replying to a credible poster on here who was calling you out for touting yourself as an expert on certain principles when you'd only been back in the gym fumbling around for 2 weeks.



We are somewhat aligned here. Gaining 20 lbs in 2 months, while doing the same reps in calisthenics, is not usually a tutorial as successful progressive overload. Leaving myself wide open to your brilliance by "subjectively" believing there are much better and obvious alternatives.



Done, and agree to disagree on your original points and your further responses above. Back to your thread.

I was sarcastically touting myself as an expert lol because I know how some people here feel about me such as yourself

[Animal2692]

75% or whatever it is recruits all motor units but that doesn’t = more growth necessarily.

And I know you don’t think it’ll make you small, but straining against a semi-heavy load is still beneficial.

I wouldn’t neglect the range just because it’s not “optimal”.

Plus moderate amount of sets in moderate rep ranges is usually the sweet spot.

Everything doesn’t have to be 10+ reps unless you just enjoy it more or see better results there.

Just trying to steer you from the black and white thinking.

You’re still applying the all or nothing mentality a bit it seems.

Try to think in shades of grey.

When I think in shades of grey, I think of 50 shades of grey.

I get what you're saying though.

[paulinkansas]

When I think in shades of grey, I think of 50 shades of grey.

I get what you're saying though.

When I see Animal2692, I see Adam Sandler.

[Animal2692]

When I see Animal2692, I see Adam Sandler.

Paul reminds me of Xavier.

https://ibb.co/s6ffKbX
https://ibb.co/znpDSj1

Air2fakie of Zach Galifinakis.
https://ibb.co/gTnDSRS

[Animal2692]

Well, today's workout will mark 8 solid ass weeks of lifting. No workouts missed. For the past 2 weeks, I've been doing an U/L split 4x a week, volume equated, since I added in a few isolations which made my 3x a week full body workouts take forever, I decided I've had enough of them.

Upper/Lower 4x a week, 8-10 reps, ~15 for isolations, 0-3 rir

Upper A
Db bench 6
V bar pull down 6
Rope biceps/triceps..hammer curls, overhead extensions superset 4
Face pulls/lateral raises 4

Upper B
Seated db press 6
Chest supported db row 6
Chest cable flyes 6
Rope biceps/triceps..hammer curls, overhead extensions superset 4
Face pulls/lateral raises 4

Lower
Squat 3
Rdl 3
Leg extension 3
Lying leg curl 3
Standing calf raise 6

Average rpe on compounds is 8.5ish, I feel like I can keep on going for months on end without any deloads. Honestly I've only increased just a few lifts once such as 185lb squat for 10 to 195 for 8 and 70lb dumbbells for flat bench from 65s. Hardly made any progress on paper so I'm just assuming I'm progressing painfully slow since I keep showing up and overloading the muscles. Every single workout is the same old reps, weight, etc. but damn it's an overload nonetheless. Clothes are tighter though. I guess straight hypertrophy is just lifting the same old **** month, after month, until you can finally add something. Gained just a few pounds, getting enough protein. Nothing more I can do lol

[Ghawk21]

Why do most of your upper body exercises get 6 sets and your lower body ones get 3? Doesn't seem fair.

[Animal2692]

Why do most of your upper body exercises get 6 sets and your lower body ones get 3? Doesn't seem fair.

I look at lower body as separate muscle groups such as the quads. 3 sets squats and 3 sets leg extensions is 6 sets for quads, twice per week. Same deal for 3 sets rdls and 3 sets of leg curls which is 6 sets for hamstrings as well.. So 12 weekly sets. I got 6 sets of cable flyes in there to get enough chest volume for 12 weekly. And then 6 sets db press and db bench is counted as 12 sets for anterior delts. I train the rest of my shoulders with isolations.

I could do 6 sets of squats but then I'd take out the leg extensions so instead I divide up the quad volume not just for fatigue management but because the leg extension hits part of the quads that squats don't.

[Ghawk21]

I look at lower body as separate muscle groups such as the quads. 3 sets squats and 3 sets leg extensions is 6 sets for quads, twice per week. Same deal for 3 sets rdls and 3 sets of leg curls which is 6 sets for hamstrings as well.. So 12 weekly sets. I got 6 sets of cable flyes in there to get enough chest volume for 12 weekly. And then 6 sets db press and db bench is counted as 12 sets for anterior delts. I train the rest of my shoulders with isolations

Fair enough. I get that you're no longer chasing numbers but how the hell has your RPE stayed the same across 8 weeks only adding 5lbs to a DB bench and essentially keep your squat the same for 8 weeks. I wouldn't consider 185x10-->195x8 a change at all.

[Animal2692]

Fair enough. I get that you're no longer chasing numbers but how the hell has your RPE stayed the same across 8 weeks only adding 5lbs to a DB bench and essentially keep your squat the same for 8 weeks. I wouldn't consider 185x10-->195x8 a change at all.

Man. TELL ME ABOUT IT. Why do you think I haven't made any increases? Because it would only drive rpe up or I'd just do less reps so it's not honest progress. But I too am surprised why I'm going in overloading for so long and hardly making any progress. Ego says that's just the way it is for hypertrophy and muscle growth being super slow. I go in there and overload my ****, end up with crazy pumps, a bit of soreness (not much) and hardly any strength progress. I was told to get my T levels checked but honestly there's a lot of signs in my life that I don't have low T LOL

I'll do my exercises with ddp, here's an example from last week for db bench press:

Set 1 8 reps with 70s
Set 2 8 reps with 65s
Set 3 8 reps with 60s
Set 4 10 reps with 55s
Set 5 8 reps with 55s
Set 6 10 reps with 50s

[MyEgoProblem]

I also always say assume your performance is up every session (a rep or smallest increase)

until proven wrong.
Either on warmups for weight bumps or in the set for another rep.

We all over shoot now and then by 0.5-1rpe finding out.

https://youtu.be/Gn0ZmXB2mYQ

https://youtu.be/STGHQV3ySyI

https://youtu.be/WzILhtiaYHM

[air2fakie]

I look at lower body as separate muscle groups such as the quads. 3 sets squats and 3 sets leg extensions is 6 sets for quads, twice per week. Same deal for 3 sets rdls and 3 sets of leg curls which is 6 sets for hamstrings as well.. So 12 weekly sets. I got 6 sets of cable flyes in there to get enough chest volume for 12 weekly. And then 6 sets db press and db bench is counted as 12 sets for anterior delts. I train the rest of my shoulders with isolations.

I could do 6 sets of squats but then I'd take out the leg extensions so instead I divide up the quad volume not just for fatigue management but because the leg extension hits part of the quads that squats don't.

Instead of 6 sets, have you considered doing 3 and splitting up that volume across both Upper days, possibly with a diff rep range and/or diff variation?

[Animal2692]

Instead of 6 sets, have you considered doing 3 and splitting up that volume across both Upper days, possibly with a diff rep range and/or diff variation?

I have thought about it. The thing is when I go to the gym at around 6pm after work, it is so packed that it's a luxury to have a whole lot of variation.

I have progressed on all of my compounds but by very little. Maybe that's just the reality of progress when you're as honest as can be with yourself. But come to think of it, if I can keep adding 10lbs to my squat every 8 weeks, that's 50lbs in a year and for 10 reps so my max 1RM would be much higher. Not that that's my #1 priority. Db bench and press is especially slow compared to a barbell. All I know is that even if I overshoot rpe by a bit, every set I do is overloading for sure. That constant overload each and every month has got to do something. I'm also doing 0 for strength work so I guess that puts progression in weight and reps even further down

[air2fakie]

I have thought about it. The thing is when I go to the gym at around 6pm after work, it is so packed that it's a luxury to have a whole lot of variation.

I have progressed on all of my compounds but by very little. Maybe that's just the reality of progress when you're as honest as can be with yourself. But come to think of it, if I can keep adding 10lbs to my squat every 8 weeks, that's 50lbs in a year and for 10 reps so my max 1RM would be much higher. Not that that's my #1 priority. Db bench and press is especially slow compared to a barbell. All I know is that even if I overshoot rpe by a bit, every set I do is overloading for sure. That constant overload each and every month has got to do something. I'm also doing 0 for strength work so I guess that puts progression in weight and reps even further down

Was just thinking of a way to possibly increase progress a bit but if it doesn't work practically then I get it. As long as you feel something is progressing weekly or biweeky with your compounds, whether it be reps, weight, RPE-related, etc. And you're right overall, if your progressing over time even if slow, you are progressing.

[Animal2692]

Was just thinking of a way to possibly increase progress a bit but if it doesn't work practically then I get it. As long as you feel something is progressing weekly or biweeky with your compounds, whether it be reps, weight, RPE-related, etc. And you're right overall, if your progressing over time even if slow, you are progressing.

Muscle growth is the slowest thing I've ever come across or had to have patience with. And there's people out there who think losing fat is slow. It didn't really sink in until I've consistently told myself over a long enough period of time to just trust the process. At 4 weeks in, I was already having thoughts of looking for something else or something better which is what I'd do in the past. I just want that 6 month mark to come already so I can say it's been a solid 6 months.

I have this feeling that as long as you're progressing, 9 times out of 10 there's nothing you can do to progress faster either..or more accurately noticeably faster.

[health4life24]

Muscle growth is the slowest thing I've ever come across or had to have patience with. And there's people out there who think losing fat is slow. It didn't really sink in until I've consistently told myself over a long enough period of time to just trust the process. At 4 weeks in, I was already having thoughts of looking for something else or something better which is what I'd do in the past. I just want that 6 month mark to come already so I can say it's been a solid 6 months.

I have this feeling that as long as you're progressing, 9 times out of 10 there's nothing you can do to progress faster either..or more accurately noticeably faster.

Everyone progresses at different rates. Some people can build muscle and lose fat faster than others, etc. Overthinking it, constantly worrying about what you are doing or doubting yourself, can hinder your own progress and cause you to spin your wheels. Don't rush it, take it workout by workout, week by week.

[air2fakie]

Muscle growth is the slowest thing I've ever come across or had to have patience with. And there's people out there who think losing fat is slow. It didn't really sink in until I've consistently told myself over a long enough period of time to just trust the process. At 4 weeks in, I was already having thoughts of looking for something else or something better which is what I'd do in the past. I just want that 6 month mark to come already so I can say it's been a solid 6 months.

I have this feeling that as long as you're progressing, 9 times out of 10 there's nothing you can do to progress faster either..or more accurately noticeably faster.

Well there is something you can do - just don't pay much attention to people you see online otherwise you'll be in a state of eternal envy if you choose not to go their same route. With smart programming, hard work and a # of years, you'll get close to where you want to be. And after that you'll learn what slow progress really is.