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  1. #1
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    Protein from vegetal sources - useless?

    I'm attending a Fitness Instructor and Personal Trainer course right now and just had a lecture where the teacher, ex-bodybuilder, told us that protein from vegetal sources (veggies, cereals etc) is useless, since it doesnt contain all the necessary aminos as animal protein does and contains mostly non-essential aminos, whereas the animal protein has the essential ones too.

    BS or not?
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    Moderator SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    It isn't useless, you just need to have a bit more of it - and to mix different sources to get the same total

    Why are some people incapable of nuance, everything has to be TRUE or FALSE [/rant]
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    Registered User AndyBendy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    It isn't useless, you just need to have a bit more of it - and to mix different sources to get the same total

    Why are some people incapable of nuance, everything has to be TRUE or FALSE [/rant]
    Oh that makes sense.

    I understand he didnt wanna go too much into detail regarding this, but at least he could have told us to make some research on what vegetal proteins help each other.
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    Registered User Ghawk21's Avatar
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    Most personal trainers don't know **** all about nutrition. They don't receive much, if any, training in the matter. Most spew mostly broscience BS. Is he kind of correct, sure. However, does anyone just sit there and chew on 1 specific food for all of their protein and dietary needs? No. As long as they eat from multiple varied sources they will get their protein in. One thing they could consider is supplemental Leucine since veggie sources can be lacking and may require higher amounts of food to stim MPS.
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    Gaintaining Mrpb's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AndyBendy View Post
    I'm attending a Fitness Instructor and Personal Trainer course right now and just had a lecture where the teacher, ex-bodybuilder, told us that protein from vegetal sources (veggies, cereals etc) is useless, since it doesnt contain all the necessary aminos as animal protein does and contains mostly non-essential aminos, whereas the animal protein has the essential ones too.

    BS or not?
    That's really bad info, on several levels.

    Vegetable protein contains all the essential amino acids. It contains a little less of some EAAs but as long as you're getting enough leucine per meal it won't matter. It will be just as effective for building muscle.

    "muscle protein synthesis rates following the ingestion of 30 g milk protein do not differ from rates observed after ingesting 30 g wheat protein or a blend with 15 g milk plus 15 g wheat protein in healthy, young males."

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...5E5711B6B90217

    Edit: and protein combining in order to get a complete AA profile is largely a myth. What matters is the total amount of leucine.
    Last edited by Mrpb; 02-24-2021 at 08:27 AM.
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    Vegetable protein sources can also be a refreshing form of variety for flavor, and in many cases (beans) carb-laden while being almost devoid of fat, making them excellent workout fuel and easier to incorporate into your daily calorie budget.

    *disclaimer* I still love meat and eat it every day
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    Originally Posted by AndyBendy View Post
    Oh that makes sense.

    I understand he didnt wanna go too much into detail regarding this, but at least he could have told us to make some research on what vegetal proteins help each other.
    complete vegan proteins:
    -rice and beans
    -hemp
    -quinoa
    -buckwheat
    -chia seeds

    And more
    Here’s a decent simple chart
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    Originally Posted by snailsrus View Post
    complete vegan proteins:
    -rice and beans
    -hemp
    -quinoa
    -buckwheat
    -chia seeds

    And more
    Here’s a decent simple chart
    It's complete nonsense to be honest. Combining AAs to get complete protein doesn't do anything useful except make your diet more complicated.

    Just look at this: 30 gram wheat protein on it's own is enough to fully stimulate muscle protein synthesis.

    "muscle protein synthesis rates following the ingestion of 30 g milk protein do not differ from rates observed after ingesting 30 g wheat protein or a blend with 15 g milk plus 15 g wheat protein in healthy, young males."

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...5E5711B6B90217
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    Another reason why that bb.com chart is flawed: there are many errors in the claims about "missing" AAs.

    For example: 100 gram oats



    Not a single AA is missing. The only reason why 100 gram oats is suboptimal to build muscle is that it only provides 1.0 gram of leucine. THAT'S the limiting factor. The claim that it doesn't contain lysine or threonine is bs.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Another reason why that bb.com chart is flawed: there are many errors in the claims about "missing" AAs.

    For example: 100 gram oats



    Not a single AA is missing. The only reason why 100 gram oats is suboptimal to build muscle is that it only provides 1.0 gram of leucine. THAT'S the limiting factor. The claim that it doesn't contain lysine or threonine is bs.

    IIRC, the only truly incomplete protein naturally occurring is actually animal based: gelatin
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    I’d demand a refund immediately. If you want 1970s info, go to the library and look in their junk bin.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    IIRC, the only truly incomplete protein naturally occurring is actually animal based: gelatin
    Seems true. This is 12 (!) table spoons of Great Lakes Gelatin.



    I think it would still work to build muscle though. The missing tryptophan won't make a difference. Of course it's a relatively very ineffective protein: you need consume a boat load to get close to 2 gram leucine.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    IIRC, the only truly incomplete protein naturally occurring is actually animal based: gelatin
    And collagen, which is sometimes used to skew cheap protein powders “protein content”
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    I’d demand a refund immediately. If you want 1970s info, go to the library and look in their junk bin.
    I'm doing it more for the actual license that allows me to train people legally. I'm not looking to learn anything new here.

    We also went on and on about how to lose weight you HAVE to do fasted morning cardio to deplete glycogen from the fat storage, you HAVE to consume certain carbs at certain times during the day etc.

    Wanted to ask him "ok, but how much does the actual caloric deficit/surplus matter in comparison to all these additional factors?" But didnt get the chance.
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    And collagen, which is sometimes used to skew cheap protein powders “protein content”
    Are you sure about that? I thought collagen isn't cheap. I thought lysine is usually used for spiking protein powders.

    Edit: looks like L-Taurine and/or L-Glycine are used https://us.myprotein.com/thezone/tra...20get%20tested.
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    Originally Posted by AndyBendy View Post
    I'm doing it more for the actual license that allows me to train people legally. I'm not looking to learn anything new here.

    We also went on and on about how to lose weight you HAVE to do fasted morning cardio to deplete glycogen from the fat storage, you HAVE to consume certain carbs at certain times during the day etc.

    Wanted to ask him "ok, but how much does the actual caloric deficit/surplus matter in comparison to all these additional factors?" But didnt get the chance.
    What cert is he teaching? Just looking at which one to avoid if I ever decide to start training people again.
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    Originally Posted by AndyBendy View Post
    We also went on and on about how to lose weight you HAVE to do fasted morning cardio to deplete glycogen from the fat storage, you HAVE to consume certain carbs at certain times during the day etc.
    The first part is utter nonsense. The second part can be somewhat true in certain circumstances, for example when you're doing multiple workouts per day.
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    Originally Posted by Ghawk21 View Post
    What cert is he teaching? Just looking at which one to avoid if I ever decide to start training people again.
    It's a course in Romania, held by the romanian bodybuilding and fitness federation.

    Pretty much the biggest federation around here, especially since they are affiliated to IFBB.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    The first part is utter nonsense. The second part can be somewhat true in certain circumstances, for example when you're doing multiple workouts per day.
    The part about the carbs was the usual "consume high glicemic index carbs/sugars only post workout, since consuming them while the glycogen in the muscle is not depleted, they will end up in the fat storage, due to the blood sugar spike". Again, didnt get the chance to ask him "what if we're in a caloric deficit? Or what if we're eating fats and protein with the carbs?"
    Last edited by AndyBendy; 02-24-2021 at 11:09 AM.
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    Originally Posted by AndyBendy View Post
    It's a course in Romania, held by the romanian bodybuilding and fitness federation.

    Pretty much the biggest federation around here, especially since they are affiliated to IFBB.
    Ahh so its being run by bodybuilders rather than educated professionals. That explains all the broscience.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Are you sure about that? I thought collagen isn't cheap. I thought lysine is usually used for spiking protein powders.

    Edit: looks like L-Taurine and/or L-Glycine are used https://us.myprotein.com/thezone/tra...20get%20tested.

    Well, for decades it was a cheap, inferior form of protein and was in a lot of the really cheap protein drinks and “shots” at Walmart and other discount stores. But like most cheap things, marketers find a way to spin it into being “superior” in order to jack up the price in order to quadruple profits. Similar what they did to the garbage fish tilapia and other foods.

    This is actually a good marketers verbiage explaining their thinking
    https://ersportsdrink.com/2020/03/wh...tain-collagen/
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    The first part is utter nonsense.
    Have you seen an allegement study about that?
    I`m only asking because must of the studies that i`v seen are short term studies or they aren`t listing the full data.
    I would highly appreciate it if you happen to have one and could post it.
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    Originally Posted by themonstertruck View Post
    Have you seen an allegement study about that?
    I`m only asking because must of the studies that i`v seen are short term studies or they aren`t listing the full data.
    I would highly appreciate it if you happen to have one and could post it.
    Is this what you meant? https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...970-014-0054-7
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    Originally Posted by snailsrus View Post
    complete vegan proteins:
    And more
    Here’s a decent simple chart
    I'm curious, do you understand now that there's no need to combine proteins to get a complete AA profile?

    These ideas are just outdated and lack scientific support. Perhaps in the general population there are people on low protein vegan diets that may end up short on certain AAs but it is of no concern for people who consume ~0.7 gram protein per lb.
    Last edited by Mrpb; 02-25-2021 at 03:25 AM.
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    Originally Posted by AndyBendy View Post
    I'm attending a Fitness Instructor and Personal Trainer course right now and just had a lecture where the teacher, ex-bodybuilder, told us that protein from vegetal sources (veggies, cereals etc) is useless, since it doesnt contain all the necessary aminos as animal protein does and contains mostly non-essential aminos, whereas the animal protein has the essential ones too.

    BS or not?
    BS and the need to combine foods to make a complete protein was proven to be false about 30 years ago. The body has massive reserves of amino acids.
    Last edited by supramax; 02-25-2021 at 05:18 AM. Reason: spelling
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    I'm curious, do you understand now that there's no need to combine proteins to get a complete AA profile?

    These ideas are just outdated and lack scientific support. Perhaps in the general population there are people on low protein vegan diets that may end up short on certain AAs but it is of no concern for people who consume ~0.7 gram protein per lb.
    Just what i was looking for
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