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  1. #31
    Registered User DukeOfWoodBerry's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by saiyanpaisa View Post
    With great power comes great responsibility.

    Fact is there was Viets in the South that didn't want any part of communism and needed the West's help.
    Nah, they can fight for it themselves if they care enough. It's one thing to send weapons but that's it.
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  2. #32
    Registered User DukeOfWoodBerry's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Shortfuze View Post
    US policy was heavily influenced by the Domino theory where if one country succumbs to communism, other countries will follow suit so it was inevitable that the US would get involved in Vietnam.
    I think the biggest problem for the US was that we were fighting and dying to protect South Vietnam in the name of democracy and yet South Vietnam was anything but a democracy. If anything it was an authoritarian, dictatorial government that trampled on human rights (especially towards Buddhists) and was riddled with corruption and scumbags.

    Then you had really constraining rules of engagement where US military were unable to take out military installations or targets for fear of injuring or killing Chinese and/or Soviet advisors. So you had situations where US pilots saw SAMS being set up but they could not take them out because they couldn't risk killing Chinese or Soviet military personnel and once the SAMS were ready, they were taking out US warplanes.
    Who the phuck cares if other countries are democracies or communists? We're on the other side of the world.
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  3. #33
    Sultan Mehmed II OttomanEmpire's Avatar
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    Pretty sad.



    "In 1966, Robert McNamara announced Project 100,000, not so much to meet the escalating requirements to keep America in Vietnam, but to spare America's poor and otherwise disadvantaged from, in his words, "idleness, ignorance, and apathy" by giving them a chance to "earn their fair share of [America's] abundance" and "return to civilian life with skills and aptitudes." Basically, McNamara claimed that one of the primary goals of Project 100,000 was to solve societal issues in America."
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  4. #34
    Registered User saiyanpaisa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    If you say so, but that isn't what I've read about it. Also expecting Americans to not be idiots is asking a lot, bro. It was idiotic for us to even get involved in the war.
    There was nothing wrong with entering the war as we had sufficient reasons to do so. Stop the spread of communism and a part of Vietnam that wanted Capitalism needed help.
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  5. #35
    Registered User saiyanpaisa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Shortfuze View Post
    US policy was heavily influenced by the Domino theory where if one country succumbs to communism, other countries will follow suit so it was inevitable that the US would get involved in Vietnam.
    I think the biggest problem for the US was that we were fighting and dying to protect South Vietnam in the name of democracy and yet South Vietnam was anything but a democracy. If anything it was an authoritarian, dictatorial government that trampled on human rights (especially towards Buddhists) and was riddled with corruption and scumbags.

    Then you had really constraining rules of engagement where US military were unable to take out military installations or targets for fear of injuring or killing Chinese and/or Soviet advisors. So you had situations where US pilots saw SAMS being set up but they could not take them out because they couldn't risk killing Chinese or Soviet military personnel and once the SAMS were ready, they were taking out US warplanes.
    The US's problem was two fold.

    1st: Terrible Military Strategy

    2nd: Terrible Oversight & Management of the South Viet Government
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  6. #36
    Registered User DukeOfWoodBerry's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by saiyanpaisa View Post
    There was nothing wrong with entering the war as we had sufficient reasons to do so. Stop the spread of communism and a part of Vietnam that wanted Capitalism needed help.
    Again why should we care if Vietnam is communist or not?
    "Modern conservatism has become too focused on money, power, and the accumulation of stuff, and insufficiently concerned with the content of our individual and social character."
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  7. #37
    Registered User saiyanpaisa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DukeOfWoodBerry View Post
    Again why should we care if Vietnam is communist or not?
    Communism is a threat to democracy and the Western civilized world. It can be like a cancer and spread. Best to eradicate it from the start.
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  8. #38
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    Mandatory playing of Fortunate Son whenever vietnam is in a movie/show




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  9. #39
    Registered User DukeOfWoodBerry's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by saiyanpaisa View Post
    Communism is a threat to democracy and the Western civilized world. It can be like a cancer and spread. Best to eradicate it from the start.
    That's really retarded dude. A threat when we're on the other side of the world? If communism is so bad, it should just collapse on its own. I would never give my life so people thousands of miles away can have a different government. Every American who died was a complete waste.
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  10. #40
    Platinum member tornister's Avatar
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    repped
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  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by saiyanpaisa View Post
    There was nothing wrong with entering the war as we had sufficient reasons to do so. Stop the spread of communism and a part of Vietnam that wanted Capitalism needed help.
    Live and let live imo. No sense in killing your own over a futile mission. If an idea is popular in a country, it will win out. We didn't beat communism with war. We beat it by having a better system and having others adopt what works. Showing is better than telling imo.
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  12. #42
    Banned wincel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DukeOfWoodBerry View Post
    That's really retarded dude. A threat when we're on the other side of the world? If communism is so bad, it should just collapse on its own. I would never give my life so people thousands of miles away can have a different government. Every American who died was a complete waste.
    Finally something we both agree on.
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  13. #43
    Registered User saiyanpaisa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DukeOfWoodBerry View Post
    That's really retarded dude. A threat when we're on the other side of the world? If communism is so bad, it should just collapse on its own. I would never give my life so people thousands of miles away can have a different government. Every American who died was a complete waste.
    Thats like saying if rape is so bad, the raper will die of a heart attack and doesn't need stopping from someone else lol
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  14. #44
    Registered User saiyanpaisa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    Live and let live imo. No sense in killing your own over a futile mission. If an idea is popular in a country, it will win out. We didn't beat communism with war. We beat it by having a better system and having others adopt what works. Showing is better than telling imo.
    I think everyone in South Korea would think differently. If it wasnt for the US they would be starving under an oppressive fat maniac with **** all rights and liberties.

    The mission wouldnt have been futile if America used even an ounce of common sense.
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    My father was in Vietnam, saw combat. He was stationed at LZ Dottie up near the border with N. Vietnam in the Americal division in 70 and 71. He would have preferred not going to Vietnam. It was an unpopular war. He does get a kick though about how many falsely claim they served in Vietnam. Some of his friends have sent him articles saying something to the effect that 9 out of 10 who claim they served in Vietnam are being dishonest. For such as unpopular conflict at the time, it has come as a surprise to him that today there is interest in Vietnam.

    When dad was coming home he was told to not wear his uniform as it could be dangerous to do so in America. One of our neighbors in San Jose, Ca made that mistake. He was in the navy during Vietnam, and when he came home he went with his brother straight from the ship to a bar wearing his uniform. While there someone walked up to him, called him baby killer, and shot him in the stomach. He lived but it took a year for him to recover.

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  16. #46
    Banned wincel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by saiyanpaisa View Post
    I think everyone in South Korea would think differently. If it wasnt for the US they would be starving under an oppressive fat maniac with **** all rights and liberties.

    The mission wouldnt have been futile if America used even an ounce of common sense.
    SK had a lot more resistance than South Vietnam. Honestly, getting involved has required the US to be world police and permanently defend SK. Now our politics are intimately tied to theirs and SK is the most influential foreign lobby. Is it worth it?

    IMO, if we wanted to do this, we should have annexed SK and made it an American collection of states then. If we're going to get involved, we might as well make that part of America. Otherwise, it isn't worth it unless it is an action taken on behalf of the UN with a global consensus imo.

    I'm sure South Koreans love that they may live in freedom on the lives of many dead Americans. I'm also sure many widows would love for America to never have bothered.

    Our troops were originally supposed to defend the US. We can maybe take an action if there is a really pressing need internationally, but it's asking a lot of people to die for another country. If the US wanted to police the world, then we should have built a global empire to do so. And we should have annexed the lands and imposed our laws. We didn't want to govern the other nations. We just wanted the economic benefits for some while getting none of the political benefits of control. It's super scummy for them and for us.

    Better to avoid war where possible imo. If you're going to do it, do it right: With full support knowing you can swiftly win and establish political control of the new territory.
    Last edited by wincel; 02-21-2021 at 02:17 AM.
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  17. #47
    Here's beer Mr Beer's Avatar
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    I work with a guy that served in Vietnam. He did a distinctly non combat role and doesn’t talk it up in any way. Said the Yanks were quite salty when Australia pulled out and his unit got shipped out on an American aircraft carrier.
    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."
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    Top Tier Manlet Jasonw1178's Avatar
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    Commies from China planned to spread communism through all of SE Asia. The point of the war was to exhaust resources of the communist, and it worked.

    Ironic that Vietnam is considered an ally of the US today. It's going to be crazy when the grandchildren of the veterans of Vietnam conflict are fighting on the same side.

    Fun fact, last war China had was with Vietnam and Vietnam was an obvious winner.
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    Originally Posted by Jasonw1178 View Post
    Commies from China planned to spread communism through all of SE Asia. The point of the war was to exhaust resources of the communist, and it worked.

    Ironic that Vietnam is considered an ally of the US today. It's going to be crazy when the grandchildren of the veterans of Vietnam conflict are fighting on the same side.

    Fun fact, last war China had was with Vietnam and Vietnam was an obvious winner.
    Why do we care if communism spreads through SE Asia though?
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    Originally Posted by Jasonw1178 View Post
    Commies from China planned to spread communism through all of SE Asia. The point of the war was to exhaust resources of the communist, and it worked.

    Ironic that Vietnam is considered an ally of the US today. It's going to be crazy when the grandchildren of the veterans of Vietnam conflict are fighting on the same side.

    Fun fact, last war China had was with Vietnam and Vietnam was an obvious winner.
    Yeah which kind of shows how pointless fighting this bogeyman of communism really was. Governments will eventually will adopt what works. Marxist Leninism didn't work. I bet NK will reform soon as well. It's in their interests to do it.

    The enemies of today are the friends of tomorrow. Nothing is permanent here, and a little vision, civility, and patience goes a long way. We probably could have resolved many of these situations without war.

    Today, the US whines about China without having perspective that China today would have been labeled a capitalist enemy of Mao. We won. We are winning this battle. China is changing. Russia is changing. The entire world is changing and slowly adopting the US' perspective on human rights, markets, etc. American globalism IS the future. Because it works. And the only threat to that is if our own country stops working well. Then people will look elsewhere for leadership. We've taken some really stupid strategic decisions in the last few decades, and it has not done us any favors.

    Guys like Bill Gates have done more to promote peace and prosperity globally than any of our stupid wars have. Companies like Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, and Google have achieved more than our military has at influencing the world politically.

    You should view government as an optimization problem. People want good solutions. There are ways to get us there without mindlessly killing each other.
    Last edited by wincel; 02-21-2021 at 02:39 AM.
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    I always found the helicopter element interesting.

    I enjoy watching videos of those little bumblebees track people and quickly pull out when fired on for the huey's to light them up.

    I remember watching an interview of a pilot talking about following gum wrappers and trash and how he was shot down twice in two days at the same spot.

    Imagine the balls on some of these guys. You are alone in your little glass bubble flying point.


    WTH, did they scrub all combat videos from YouTube? I cannot find anything showing a Loach scouting for a Cobra.
    Last edited by FingerFood; 02-21-2021 at 02:56 AM.
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  22. #52
    Registered User Polaris's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LukeLissen View Post
    Yep. Great book. I have it and it's in my OP pic. I'm about half way through it. Crazy good book. Get it on Ebay ($22) because it's expensive as heck on Amazon. All the rest I got on Amazon used.


    EDIT to add info -

    holy carp they're charging $900+ for this on Amazon WTF -

    https://www.amazon.com/Across-Fence-...3878681&sr=8-2

    but on Ebay can be bought for $24 now -

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Across-The-...IAAOSwunJfxkTp

    https://book4you.org/book/11185214/6aef7c
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  23. #53
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    We should have nuked north vietnam and china into oblivion. Pussy ass American presidents.
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    Not going to get into the conversation but repped OP, mirin (srs)
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    Originally Posted by saiyanpaisa View Post
    We should have nuked north vietnam and china into oblivion. Pussy ass American presidents.
    Yea real tough guy. Until some group develops a bomb and nukes us. Oopsies. Fuking dumbass. The entire point is to avoid chit like this. It actually doesn't matter who "wins" these stupid wars. In the long term, what works will win out over what doesn't because states have an interest in their own self preservation and prosperity.
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    Top Tier Manlet Jasonw1178's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DukeOfWoodBerry View Post
    Why do we care if communism spreads through SE Asia though?
    Their goal was to take over the world, one country at a time.

    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    Yeah which kind of shows how pointless fighting this bogeyman of communism really was. Governments will eventually will adopt what works. Marxist Leninism didn't work. I bet NK will reform soon as well. It's in their interests to do it.

    The enemies of today are the friends of tomorrow. Nothing is permanent here, and a little vision, civility, and patience goes a long way. We probably could have resolved many of these situations without war.

    Today, the US whines about China without having perspective that China today would have been labeled a capitalist enemy of Mao. We won. We are winning this battle. China is changing. Russia is changing. The entire world is changing and slowly adopting the US' perspective on human rights, markets, etc. American globalism IS the future. Because it works. And the only threat to that is if our own country stops working well. Then people will look elsewhere for leadership. We've taken some really stupid strategic decisions in the last few decades, and it has not done us any favors.

    Guys like Bill Gates have done more to promote peace and prosperity globally than any of our stupid wars have. Companies like Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, and Google have achieved more than our military has at influencing the world politically.

    You should view government as an optimization problem. People want good solutions. There are ways to get us there without mindlessly killing each other.
    I agree with much of what you are saying but the idea that allowing the communist to spread by force unchecked was the right answer is wrong. The US hasn't ever invaded a communist country and forced them to become capitalist. We have never had to put guards on our borders to keep Americans from leaving.
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    Everyone likes to think they know whether or not the war was the correct choice. The causes and differences the U.S. made by getting involved are beyond the level of detail any of us understand. Maybe rather than looking at it from knowing the cause and whether it was right or wrong you can show difference in specific details from different perspectives.
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    Originally Posted by Jasonw1178 View Post
    Their goal was to take over the world, one country at a time.



    I agree with much of what you are saying but the idea that allowing the communist to spread by force unchecked was the right answer is wrong. The US hasn't ever invaded a communist country and forced them to become capitalist. We have never had to put guards on our borders to keep Americans from leaving.
    Well it was definitely right to try to stop it, but military intervention only makes sense if you reasonably expect to win SWIFTLY and with minimal casualties. Otherwise, the war solves nothing. You also look at the scale of casualties. We were lucky the Korean war stalled. If it had continued on in full force, it would have become worse than WW2. It frankly wasn't worth that for either side -- hence the cease fire. Also, the US has pretty much exclusively invaded other countries with the explicit intent of setting up capitalist states. So we essentially did just that. Now, you can make an objective argument that capitalism (or some mixed economy with capitalist features) is certainly vastly superior to marxist-leninist/maoist communism. We've seen that pretty clearly, and economists have pretty much made their case on that. In the interests of prosperity, it may be worth fighting to protect that. BUT it needs to be a war we can realistically win. Oh also we actually don't let people leave the ports or travel without visas/passports, so we sort of do that btw.
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    Originally Posted by Jasonw1178 View Post
    Their goal was to take over the world, one country at a time.



    I agree with much of what you are saying but the idea that allowing the communist to spread by force unchecked was the right answer is wrong. The US hasn't ever invaded a communist country and forced them to become capitalist. We have never had to put guards on our borders to keep Americans from leaving.
    Of course we have. Just like we try to shove Democracy down the throat of the Middle East.
    "Modern conservatism has become too focused on money, power, and the accumulation of stuff, and insufficiently concerned with the content of our individual and social character."
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    Originally Posted by DukeOfWoodBerry View Post
    Of course we have. Just like we try to shove Democracy down the throat of the Middle East.
    It's amusing that we have radically different views on race issues, immigration, etc but share similar views on foreign policy. lul

    I guess that is why the white supremacists like Tulsi. LOL
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