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  1. #1
    📶 🔌🔋 99% LukeLissen's Avatar
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    I'm studying the Vietnam War now

    This is what I do. I'm 48 now and ever since shortly after I was baptized at 6 years old I became drawn to studying the history of warfare. My dad had just finished his PhD in education a few years prior and we had a large library including encyclopedias and many history books.

    I've studied the Vietnam War numerous times before but I never got into it in detail like this.






    I'm using the internet also as much as I can but also researched some great books to learn from and so ordered them in the past 6 months and am currently deep in it. This is most of my books on it but there are a few others like We Were Soldiers that aren't in the pic.

    This is also why I posted so much about the Ukrainian and Syrian conflicts - to learn as much about them as I could, for my own understanding. I also posted about it a lot here because I figured that while following it all so extremely closely, if I posted about it here it would help me keep focus on trying to understand it while also helping some others with info about what was going on.

    The Vietnam War is probably the most interesting war I've ever studied. Apart from the drafted ones who didn't wanna be there who IMO should have never been there, there were many who voluntarily enlisted to fight the communist threat because they truly believed that doing so was important. Many good men gave dedicated blood, sweat, and tears, and many their lives, in order to try and defeat it. It was a noble cause for them to do so and their sacrifices should be recognized for that. Of course many on the other side truly believed in what they were fighting for also.

    I hate to ever say war is 'interesting' because of the death and destruction that's involved, but man what an interesting war the Vietnam War was.
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    Banned wincel's Avatar
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    It was a total bs war that we had no business being in really. And it was not a noble cause. The entire thing was dumb as chit for the US to get involved in. Also, Vietnam ended up mostly fine. They went through the communist nightmare stage just like China and then reformed. Now, Vietnam is mostly ok. Hardly worth the misery and suffering of a war. Most of these wars are not worth it. You can romanticize them all you want. Really, they were just the breakdown of civilization. People are fuking angry and scared little idiots. It just takes one stupid thing to fuk everything up.

    A lot of people want to pretend the Vietnam war mattered in order to justify the insane loss of life. Sadly, like the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, it ultimately didn't. It was a giant waste of life and money. We didn't accomplish our objective, and ultimately, it was a dumb move. Could Vietnam have been saved or become better off under a capitalist gov? Probably. They would have been more like South Korea then. But was it realistic to achieve that goal? Probably not.

    Communism/socialism (especially the marxist-leninist brand) is worth fighting against for the sake of prosperity, but only where you really think you can win. You aren't going to like liberate China. But it might be worth protecting Hong Kong and Taiwan. You aren't going to convince NK to stop being communist, but it is worth defending SK. There's a limit to what you can achieve here. It's better to be realistic and try to slowly reform countries for more prosperity. We did that with China to great results. Sadly, instead of making them a powerful ally, we have worsened relations. We get better results when we work together. War is the opposite of that. If you really want to beat communism, expand international trade and collaboration. Spread the influence of American ideals and culture and win the battle in the minds of people, and not on any battlefield. Show them your way is better (if it truly even is), and others will join. These countries have every interest in trying to do what is best for them.
    Last edited by wincel; 02-20-2021 at 06:43 PM.
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    I can understand the thinking of the time with the communist fight. Small countries around the world seemed to be falling like dominoes to communism. If a majority of the world suddenly sided with the USSR, we would have a huge problem on our hands.

    I find the war interesting because it seemed particularly nasty with the guerilla warfare and the environmental conditions. Also, I saw a program once that said the average infantry soldier in WWII saw an average of 20 days of combat in a one year tour of duty while the average infantryman in Vietnam saw something like 220 days of combat. Talk about battle fatigue. Those guys got the shyt end of the stick.
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    Banned wincel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FatBallz View Post
    I can understand the thinking of the time with the communist fight. Small countries around the world seemed to be falling like dominoes to communism. If a majority of the world suddenly sided with the USSR, we would have a huge problem on our hands.

    I find the war interesting because it seemed particularly nasty with the guerilla warfare and the environmental conditions. Also, I saw a program once that said the average infantry soldier in WWII saw an average of 20 days of combat in a one year tour of duty while the average infantryman in Vietnam saw something like 220 days of combat. Talk about battle fatigue. Those guys got the shyt end of the stick.
    In retrospect, the thinking ALMOST make sense...IF you believe we could win. But if they really studied it, they should have known the support wasn't there.
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    📶 🔌🔋 99% LukeLissen's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    ...
    but you're a communist

    You may be clapping and welcoming with open arms the Marxist communistic/totalitarian overthrow of this country while they're robbing, destroying, dehumanizing, gulaging, and genociding millions of good people.

    That's what happens when you allow demonic evil into your heart and soul like you clearly have.

    Find God, find collective consciousness with your fellow man, find a conscious contact with God to help your fellow man and God, pray for forgiveness for your sins, and pray for guidance and direction to do God's will on Earth.
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    If you want some MACV SOG stories, check out John Stryker Meyer. He wrote "Across the Fence" and has been on Jocko a few times.
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  8. #8
    📶 🔌🔋 99% LukeLissen's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dude.Jon View Post
    If you want some MACV SOG stories, check out John Stryker Meyer. He wrote "Across the Fence" and has been on Jocko a few times.
    Yep. Great book. I have it and it's in my OP pic. I'm about half way through it. Crazy good book. Get it on Ebay ($22) because it's expensive as heck on Amazon. All the rest I got on Amazon used.


    EDIT to add info -

    holy carp they're charging $900+ for this on Amazon WTF -

    https://www.amazon.com/Across-Fence-...3878681&sr=8-2

    but on Ebay can be bought for $24 now -

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Across-The-...IAAOSwunJfxkTp
    Last edited by LukeLissen; 02-20-2021 at 07:40 PM.
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    📶 🔌🔋 99% LukeLissen's Avatar
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    on a side note tangent whatever .... while we're talking about books ... this is the book that changed my life by getting me into bodybuilding.

    I first read the book as checked out from Millbrook High School library in Spring 1990 but was so enamored by it that I quickly went and bought it ...

    This was my introduction to bodybuilding ...



    The corners are taped up with 3M clear tape so they don't fray.

    I built an awesome gym in a few short weeks in a storage building behind our house in June 1990.

    I started NC State in Fall 1990 starting to get ripped and pumped thanks to that book. The gains came extremely quickly. People especially girls were looking at me that first semester as I started school because they saw I was ripped.

    That book was bought in June 1990. It changed my life for the good. I highly recommend it. I have been into bodybuilding ever since and without that book I may have never gotten into it.
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    It was a total bs war that we had no business being in really. And it was not a noble cause. The entire thing was dumb as chit for the US to get involved in. Also, Vietnam ended up mostly fine. They went through the communist nightmare stage just like China and then reformed. Now, Vietnam is mostly ok. Hardly worth the misery and suffering of a war. Most of these wars are not worth it. You can romanticize them all you want. Really, they were just the breakdown of civilization. People are fuking angry and scared little idiots. It just takes one stupid thing to fuk everything up.

    A lot of people want to pretend the Vietnam war mattered in order to justify the insane loss of life. Sadly, like the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, it ultimately didn't. It was a giant waste of life and money. We didn't accomplish our objective, and ultimately, it was a dumb move. Could Vietnam have been saved or become better off under a capitalist gov? Probably. They would have been more like South Korea then. But was it realistic to achieve that goal? Probably not.

    Communism/socialism (especially the marxist-leninist brand) is worth fighting against for the sake of prosperity, but only where you really think you can win. You aren't going to like liberate China. But it might be worth protecting Hong Kong and Taiwan. You aren't going to convince NK to stop being communist, but it is worth defending SK. There's a limit to what you can achieve here. It's better to be realistic and try to slowly reform countries for more prosperity. We did that with China to great results. Sadly, instead of making them a powerful ally, we have worsened relations. We get better results when we work together. War is the opposite of that. If you really want to beat communism, expand international trade and collaboration. Spread the influence of American ideals and culture and win the battle in the minds of people, and not on any battlefield. Show them your way is better (if it truly even is), and others will join. These countries have every interest in trying to do what is best for them.
    Dude just stfu you pseudo intellectual attention seeking basement dweller.
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    Just watched Platoon and it’s unbelievable that the war took place for so long. That movie was supposed to be indicative of what actually happened, so I know now. Seemed pretty realistic

    The whole thing was a proxy war.
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    Originally Posted by LukeLissen View Post
    This is what I do. I'm 48 now and ever since shortly after I was baptized at 6 years old I became drawn to studying the history of warfare. My dad had just finished his PhD in education a few years prior and we had a large library including encyclopedias and many history books.

    I've studied the Vietnam War numerous times before but I never got into it in detail like this.






    I'm using the internet also as much as I can but also researched some great books to learn from and so ordered them in the past 6 months and am currently deep in it. This is most of my books on it but there are a few others like We Were Soldiers that aren't in the pic.

    This is also why I posted so much about the Ukrainian and Syrian conflicts - to learn as much about them as I could, for my own understanding. I also posted about it a lot here because I figured that while following it all so extremely closely, if I posted about it here it would help me keep focus on trying to understand it while also helping some others with info about what was going on.

    The Vietnam War is probably the most interesting war I've ever studied. Apart from the drafted ones who didn't wanna be there who IMO should have never been there, there were many who voluntarily enlisted to fight the communist threat because they truly believed that doing so was important. Many good men gave dedicated blood, sweat, and tears, and many their lives, in order to try and defeat it. It was a noble cause for them to do so and their sacrifices should be recognized for that. Of course many on the other side truly believed in what they were fighting for also.

    I hate to ever say war is 'interesting' because of the death and destruction that's involved, but man what an interesting war the Vietnam War was.
    Wife is half-Vietnamese & my mother-in law has some crazy stories of what went on during the war & how she escaped Vietnam. Never meet anyone so grateful to be an American & so fearful of how this country is turning into what she escaped.
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  13. #13
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    Originally Posted by LukeLissen View Post
    I hate to ever say war is 'interesting' because of the death and destruction that's involved, but man what an interesting war the Vietnam War was.
    War is always interesting, no need to put a caveat on that. I study ancient history, mainly Greek/Roman warfare. To me the most fascinating aspect of it was not even the fighting or killing, it was it was the processes leading up to the engagement and the aftermath of it. I’m more into tactics and fighting styles which makes me hate modern warfare where battles are won off the field.
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    Appreciate any insights you have OP, srs. Not something i've looked in to, which is something I should correct in the future considering the impact had on the world and present day.

    One of my father's closest friends was a Marine who served at the time, he was a machine gunner. He was shot 3 separate times. First one hit him somewhere in the upper chest, he was patched up and sent back out a couple weeks later. Second was in the leg, same result.. patched up and sent back out. Third time he was shot in the neck, barely lived, and thankfully he was sent back OCONUS. He doesn't speak much about his experiences.. actually he doesn't say anything about his time over there except for being shot. Interestingly enough he's an incredibly upbeat guy who has lived a very unique and successful life despite what he went through and the things he saw. I've always wanted to speak more to him about that time, but likely that won't ever happen.
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    I recommend Vietnam: An Epic Tragedy by Max Hastings. Massive book, very thorough, pulls zero punches. Explains the thinking of the leaders in both Hanoi and Washington. Gives his own opinion on why America lost, spoiler, it’s not by being insufficiently ruthless or betraying the military. Says how messed up the Communist regime was and how the South might have been more keen to win had the people been clearly aware of that unfortunate fact. Overall his big point though is how messed up the whole thing was for the people of Vietnam who suffered decades of war in their country.
    Last edited by Mr Beer; 02-20-2021 at 08:34 PM.
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    In retrospect, the thinking ALMOST make sense...IF you believe we could win. But if they really studied it, they should have known the support wasn't there.
    support was there at the beginning. it wasn't till the war was dragging out years later with mounting deaths publicized by the media until support decreased.

    OP, war also interests me a lot as well.

    I have lived in Vietnam a few years. Whats really interesting is that most Vietnamese do not know or believe their were Vietnamese against the Commie Viets. They believe it was an entirely US vs Viet war. And any Viet that supported the US / Capitalism was forced to do it by the US. The Viet govt highly censors and controls what is taught in school and whats put on the media here.

    My thoughts on the war

    1) The reason / justification for War was fine imo. Commies are bad or worse than us.

    2) Can't believe soldiers actually agreed to walk around in thick jungle brush in the middle of no where to risk dying for no reason

    3) Piggy backing off of #2, can't believe the terrible strategy the US used in the war. We wasted so much time, money and lives defending meaningless rural areas that we could in no way keep or protect long term. We should have took over and defended key strategic areas of the south and make the viet cong / north viets come to us (where they would have been slaughtered with the quickness with minimal US life lost)

    4) Can't believe the US was worried about China back then. China wasn't stupid, they knew a full on war with the US would be devastating to them and would have backed off if **** got really heated and bombs pointing at them.

    5) The US should have censored the news from showing such death n carnage. Disrespectful to the dead to be showing people getting killed and pictures and videos of dead bodies. Families are going to see that ****.

    6) The US should not have allowed an unfavorable Viet Pres to win in the South. Gotta make sure the Viet South Govt was liked, respected and acted good to keep and gain support.

    You should watch the documentary by Burns. Very good and tells it from both sides.
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    Sticking our nose where it didn't belong, too much globalism. Every American who died there and got injured, disfigured, maimed was a complete waste. We have no business telling people on the other side of the world what kind of government they should have.
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    Originally Posted by DukeOfWoodBerry View Post
    Sticking our nose where it didn't belong, too much globalism. Every American who died there and got injured, disfigured, maimed was a complete waste. We have no business telling people on the other side of the world what kind of government they should have.
    With great power comes great responsibility.

    Fact is there was Viets in the South that didn't want any part of communism and needed the West's help.
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    Originally Posted by LukeLissen View Post
    but you're a communist

    You may be clapping and welcoming with open arms the Marxist communistic/totalitarian overthrow of this country while they're robbing, destroying, dehumanizing, gulaging, and genociding millions of good people.

    That's what happens when you allow demonic evil into your heart and soul like you clearly have.

    Find God, find collective consciousness with your fellow man, find a conscious contact with God to help your fellow man and God, pray for forgiveness for your sins, and pray for guidance and direction to do God's will on Earth.
    I am not a communist, and you're deranged. Maybe you missed my entire discussion of how it is worth fighting communism for prosperity's sake. (Putting into perspective how much better off SK is than Vietnam, for example.)
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    Originally Posted by saiyanpaisa View Post
    support was there at the beginning. it wasn't till the war was dragging out years later with mounting deaths publicized by the media until support decreased.

    OP, war also interests me a lot as well.

    I have lived in Vietnam a few years. Whats really interesting is that most Vietnamese do not know or believe their were Vietnamese against the Commie Viets. They believe it was an entirely US vs Viet war. And any Viet that supported the US / Capitalism was forced to do it by the US. The Viet govt highly censors and controls what is taught in school and whats put on the media here.

    My thoughts on the war

    1) The reason / justification for War was fine imo. Commies are bad or worse than us.

    2) Can't believe soldiers actually agreed to walk around in thick jungle brush in the middle of no where to risk dying for no reason

    3) Piggy backing off of #2, can't believe the terrible strategy the US used in the war. We wasted so much time, money and lives defending meaningless rural areas that we could in no way keep or protect long term. We should have took over and defended key strategic areas of the south and make the viet cong / north viets come to us (where they would have been slaughtered with the quickness with minimal US life lost)

    4) Can't believe the US was worried about China back then. China wasn't stupid, they knew a full on war with the US would be devastating to them and would have backed off if **** got really heated and bombs pointing at them.

    5) The US should have censored the news from showing such death n carnage. Disrespectful to the dead to be showing people getting killed and pictures and videos of dead bodies. Families are going to see that ****.

    6) The US should not have allowed an unfavorable Viet Pres to win in the South. Gotta make sure the Viet South Govt was liked, respected and acted good to keep and gain support.

    You should watch the documentary by Burns. Very good and tells it from both sides.
    Well the winners wrote the books. They basically erased the resistance. Most of the resistance was driven out of Vietnam. That being said, the support for capitalism in Vietnam was pathetic. That's why we lost. The public sentiment was misrepresented to Kennedy. Kennedy was even on record bitching about how he was getting two different stories from different people he sent to Vietnam about support for US aid. Yet another of many sus things around Kennedy's death.
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    This pretty much sums it all up.

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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    Well the winners wrote the books. They basically erased the resistance. Most of the resistance was driven out of Vietnam. That being said, the support for capitalism in Vietnam was pathetic. That's why we lost. The public sentiment was misrepresented to Kennedy. Kennedy was even on record bitching about how he was getting two different stories from different people he sent to Vietnam about support for US aid. Yet another of many sus things around Kennedy's death.
    Naw, we lost because of poor strategy. Terrible strategy. **** that aint even the word. Worst than terrible. Laughably bad.

    The North Viets were backed by the Chinese who fought the war WAY smarter than the US/South Vietnam. Once the US left, the South had no big power behind it. Easy take over for the North Viets backed by China.

    I actually feel bad for the South Viets for how bad the US mismanaged the war. Literally doomed them.
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    Originally Posted by saiyanpaisa View Post
    Naw, we lost because of poor strategy. Terrible strategy. **** that aint even the word. Worst than terrible. Laughably bad.

    The North Viets were backed by the Chinese who fought the war WAY smarter than the US/South Vietnam. Once the US left, the South had no big power behind it. Easy take over for the North Viets backed by China.

    I actually feel bad for the South Viets for how bad the US mismanaged the war. Literally doomed them.
    Well yea. We were idiots and they outfought us. They had the will to win, and we didn't. But South Vietnam's so called resistance was also pretty bad. They honestly had not much support. Not enough for them to conceivably win. We should have never gotten involved tbh. The lengths the Vietnamese went to beat us had never been seen before. Guerilla warfare, tunnels, suicide bombings...it was a completely unheard of unconventional war, and it horrified and demoralized our forces.

    Oh and also we essentially committed mass murder, and Vietnam was a giant cluster fuk of illegal violence. People were just murdering civilians left and right, on either side. It was absolutely disgusting. It created an entire generation of very sick people. You could argue Richard Ramirez was a product of his green beret Vietnam war veteran uncle's insanity, for example. So many ordinary Americans who served in Vietnam were actually party to blatant murder, and were haunted by this for the rest of their lives. Absolutely disgusting. Indeed, today, we see the same chit from Afghanistan and Iraq veterans, but at least they tried to follow a few rules here and there. War is disgusting, and the US hasn't really had to fight a war since WW2. We just fight them because we are retarded. There is no reason to do it. Respect the troops my ass. They aren't fighting for your freedom. They are murdering for some bullchit agenda of some old geezers.

    It's absolutely retarded, and our jingoistic culture needs to stop this madness before we get everyone in our species killed.
    Last edited by wincel; 02-20-2021 at 09:43 PM.
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    Well yea. We were idiots and they outfought us. They had the will to win, and we didn't. But South Vietnam's so called resistance was also pretty bad. They honestly had not much support. Not enough for them to conceivably win. We should have never gotten involved tbh. The lengths the Vietnamese went to beat us had never been seen before. Guerilla warfare, tunnels, suicide bombings...it was a completely unheard of unconventional war, and it horrified and demoralized our forces.
    They had plenty of support. I actually live in Vietnam, and even to this day, there is a divide amongst the north and south. They think differently. The problem was the North had China and fought a smart war. The South had the US and fought a dumb war.

    Had the US simply secured and defended strategic cities and locations throughout the South and better handled the South Viet Govt, it would be like a Korea situation.

    There wouldn't have been a lot of American deaths. Most our deaths were out in bum **** no where on sneak hit and run / ambush / booby trap ****.
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    Originally Posted by saiyanpaisa View Post
    They had plenty of support. I actually live in Vietnam, and even to this day, there is a divide amongst the north and south. They think differently. The problem was the North had China and fought a smart war. The South had the US and fought a dumb war.

    Had the US simply secured and defended strategic cities and locations throughout the South and better handled the South Viet Govt, it would be like a Korea situation.

    There wouldn't have been a lot of American deaths. Most our deaths were out in bum **** no where on sneak hit and run / ambush / booby trap ****.
    If you say so, but that isn't what I've read about it. Also expecting Americans to not be idiots is asking a lot, bro. It was idiotic for us to even get involved in the war.
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    US policy was heavily influenced by the Domino theory where if one country succumbs to communism, other countries will follow suit so it was inevitable that the US would get involved in Vietnam.
    I think the biggest problem for the US was that we were fighting and dying to protect South Vietnam in the name of democracy and yet South Vietnam was anything but a democracy. If anything it was an authoritarian, dictatorial government that trampled on human rights (especially towards Buddhists) and was riddled with corruption and scumbags.

    Then you had really constraining rules of engagement where US military were unable to take out military installations or targets for fear of injuring or killing Chinese and/or Soviet advisors. So you had situations where US pilots saw SAMS being set up but they could not take them out because they couldn't risk killing Chinese or Soviet military personnel and once the SAMS were ready, they were taking out US warplanes.
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    Originally Posted by Shortfuze View Post
    US policy was heavily influenced by the Domino theory where if one country succumbs to communism, other countries will follow suit so it was inevitable that the US would get involved in Vietnam.
    I think the biggest problem for the US was that we were fighting and dying to protect South Vietnam in the name of democracy and yet South Vietnam was anything but a democracy. If anything it was an authoritarian, dictatorial government that trampled on human rights (especially towards Buddhists) and was riddled with corruption and scumbags.

    Then you had really constraining rules of engagement where US military were unable to take out military installations or targets for fear of injuring or killing Chinese and/or Soviet advisors. So you had situations where US pilots saw SAMS being set up but they could not take them out because they couldn't risk killing Chinese or Soviet military personnel and once the SAMS were ready, they were taking out US warplanes.
    It's not a theory.

    And the other thing that's dumb is if an idea spreads that easily, maybe they should ask themselves why. Why would certain aspects of communism be so appealing to people? Perhaps we could reform our system so that those aspects wouldn't be so advantageous? In fact, that's exactly what has happened from 1930 onwards. The US has enacted many reforms including regulations on utility companies, social security, medicare, 40 hr work week, paid time off, food and worker safety etc. There are many things that were originally socialist policies that now exist in full effect in the US. If we can get away with social programs to improve the social welfare of the country, it is a good idea to do it. We can take the good aspects of communism while also being mindful of the bad economic effects. It's a delicate balancing act, but a lot of other countries have gotten it right. The US is just behind as usual.
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    Originally Posted by TaeBoNinja View Post
    How the fuk is wincel unbanned?
    There is no need to be upset.
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