Peyton Manning, not Tom Brady, is actually the GOAT, according to PFR's HoF metrics

[Vhagar]

Brady is the GOAT because he shined brightest when it mattered most but Manning was the better qb in most seasons. This is supported by 1st team all Pros (7 to 3) and MVPs (5 to 3). What seasons do you think Brady outplayed Manning? Here is a really good breakdown. .

It’s invalidated by back to back 1st team all decade teams for Brady

My arbitrary popularity contests > yours

[Evolutionary1]

Brady just destroyed your life

[Lunatic]

It’s invalidated by back to back 1st team all decade teams for Brady

My arbitrary popularity contests > yours

It'd be nice to see you actually address someone's points, which you never do.

So you're trying to make a point by using hypotheticals? That's never a strong argument.

There are a lot of QBs who didn't throw as many INTs as Winston and still failed to have a winning season or make the playoffs. There is no guarantee that the Bucs would improve having thrown less INTs.

You Brady nuthuggers really do everything possible to downplay anything that doesn't look Brady look like a god.


****ing idiot seriously just said there's no guarantee throwing less INTs will make a team better. THIRTY INTERCEPTIONS.

Jesus Christ, both the people denying Brady being the GOAT and those that deny/downplay anything negative about him are both ****ing delusional.

[PITA21]

It'd be nice to see you actually address someone's points, which you never do.

You Brady nuthuggers really do everything possible to downplay anything that doesn't look Brady look like a god.


****ing idiot seriously just said there's no guarantee throwing less INTs will make a team better. THIRTY INTERCEPTIONS.

Jesus Christ, both the people denying Brady being the GOAT and those that deny/downplay anything negative about him are both ****ing delusional.

More like proclaiming an absolute stance and claiming anyone who disagrees with it is delusional

5 pages of debate and weak refutations at best prove this is far from an unsettled question

Furthermore there has been absolute denial of the various scandals that occurred during bradys career. You can’t outwardly dismiss facts by claiming they don’t exist and come to a impartial conclusion.

But In the end Brady is not the goat, he is not the qb goat and in retrospect his accomplishments are above average at best with proper context.

[BigDeeps01]

More like proclaiming an absolute stance and claiming anyone who disagrees with it is delusional

5 pages of debate and weak refutations at best prove this is far from an unsettled question

Furthermore there has been absolute denial of the various scandals that occurred during bradys career. You can’t outwardly dismiss facts by claiming they don’t exist and come to a impartial conclusion.

But In the end Brady is not the goat, he is not the qb goat and in retrospect his accomplishments are above average at best with proper context.

7 super bowl rings

Lmao

[Vhagar]

It'd be nice to see you actually address someone's points, which you never do.

You Brady nuthuggers really do everything possible to downplay anything that doesn't look Brady look like a god.


****ing idiot seriously just said there's no guarantee throwing less INTs will make a team better. THIRTY INTERCEPTIONS.

Jesus Christ, both the people denying Brady being the GOAT and those that deny/downplay anything negative about him are both ****ing delusional.

What points are worth addressing? That an all time great QB playing in a dome on a team that poured resources into the offense has more pro bowls?

Maybe after 15 years of having to settle on that as the biggest achievement for the season it means a lot more to some of you.

You’ve been a salty **** ever since Brees got bent over and sent packing. Time to let it go

[GarthVader]

7 super bowl rings

Lmao

combined with many NFL records and top statistics.

Not goat.

l m a o

[BigDeeps01]

combined with many NFL records and top statistics.

Not goat.

l m a o

Took a 7-9 team with no offensive pro bowlers to the SB and won against the NFLs new hot young stud

Not goat

Lmao

[SmashinYoungVag]

Took a 7-9 team with no offensive pro bowlers to the SB and won against the NFLs new hot young stud

Not goat

Lmao

So is pro bowlers a good measuring stick for how good a player is or not?

Cause all I’ve heard lately from Brady fans is how that’s irrelevant.

[BigDeeps01]

So is pro bowlers a good measuring stick for how good a player is or not?

Cause all I’ve heard lately from Brady fans is how that’s irrelevant.

Apparently not, I mean you could have put ANY QB except winston on the Bucks and they would have won a SB. Literally any single one would have done the same because they have just omg like the most amazing receiving core that has ever been assembled.

[Vhagar]

So is pro bowlers a good measuring stick for how good a player is or not?

Cause all I’ve heard lately from Brady fans is how that’s irrelevant.

If it means something to you then go ahead and chalk that up as another impressive feat by Brady.

Personally I don’t think it’s very useful in determining much.

[dyee4613]

It’s invalidated by back to back 1st team all decade teams for Brady

My arbitrary popularity contests > yours

Greatness is the standard with which rate players. Brady is the greatest because he won more than anyone else and as a major contributor in those wins. In my opinion, Brady's strengths were amplified by having the best organization of all time supporting him and putting him in a great position to succeed. Brady was put into a great opportunity to succeed and with each opportunity, Brady grew and developed into IMO the most unstoppable player the league has ever seen. However, for the majority of their careers Peyton was individually a better player. I'll break down why.

2000 All-Decade: This was an awful decision. Brady missed two seasons in the 2000 and was inferior in both efficiency and bulk stats. Manning was way way ahead in bulk stats, too. This was pretty widely criticized.
2010 All-Decade: Manning retired in 2016 and post-surgery had a noodle arm.

I'm using MVP and All-Pros are a placeholder to show that Manning was better that season by the majority of people. If you'd like, we can dive into any season and we can look at the stats/supporting casts/etc and make an argument. If you're not making an argument that is centered around team success, it is really hard to argue the statistical discrepancy between the two. This gap is further expanded by the fact that Manning was given an unprecedented level of control of the offense almost instantly while Brady had significantly less pressure starting off. As Brady developed into a monster, he took over more and more of the offense but I don't think it was ever at the level Manning had. Additionally, Erhardt Perkins is about exploiting defensive weaknesses while the Colts offense was "let's run the same thing 1000 times LOL".

Note: The Patriots Erhardt-Perkins system is probably the most complex offense in the league to learn while the Colt's "WE HAVE MANNING, WOO" offense is the simplest in the league.

Additionally, we can dive into the Patriot's philosophy of exploiting teams weaknesses is much more effective in the post season compared to the Colt's rigid structure that focuses on high-powered passing attacks and a defense that can't stop the run.

[Lunatic]

More like proclaiming an absolute stance and claiming anyone who disagrees with it is delusional

5 pages of debate and weak refutations at best prove this is far from an unsettled question

Furthermore there has been absolute denial of the various scandals that occurred during bradys career. You can’t outwardly dismiss facts by claiming they don’t exist and come to a impartial conclusion.

But In the end Brady is not the goat, he is not the qb goat and in retrospect his accomplishments are above average at best with proper context.

You're so ****ing dumb, dude.

What points are worth addressing? That an all time great QB playing in a dome on a team that poured resources into the offense has more pro bowls?

Maybe after 15 years of having to settle on that as the biggest achievement for the season it means a lot more to some of you.

You’ve been a salty **** ever since Brees got bent over and sent packing. Time to let it go

You don't get it. You never address anything anyone brings up when it comes to Brady. You always ignore anything anyone says.

How am I being salty?

All I've ****ing said is:

1. Brady didn't win the game against the Saints, like everyone was saying on here. Their defense and Brees playing like complete ass won the Bucs the game.
2. Brady didn't play well in the game against GB. He threw some awful INTs and basically tried to give the game to GB, but the Bucs defense was absurdly good.
3. Bringing up that Brady underperformed this season when compared to Winston in 2019. This, of course, is an opinion, but people like you, Belome, and Tyler all put your fingers in your ears and keep yelling, "7-9! 7-9!" without even trying to discus the last season.
4. People like you using retarded ways to prop Brady up. "Brady beat Rodgers/Brees/Mahomes/etc!" It's like y'all don't realize that the QBs play against the other team's defense. I've been saying that for YEARS.

I've said many times that Brady played great in the SB, and I've said countless times that he's the undisputable GOAT. Just because I'm not following him around with my head up his ass I'm salty/a hater? God damn you Brady nuthuggers can be insufferable.

[Belome]

How am I being salty?

All I've ****ing said is:
3. Bringing up that Brady underperformed this season when compared to Winston in 2019.

This take is Max Kellerman “the cliff” level retarded and it makes you come off extremely
Salty.

Also any game Tom Brady wins you find a way to praise somebody els... clearly agenda driven.

Somthing tells me if Rodgers came back and scored TDs off those INTs you would be slobbering all over Rodgers and giving him all the credit while ignoring the fact that his defense got the 3 picks.

Flip sides and say Brady does it and “Brady didn’t win, his defense did”

At the end of the day, you’re the Atlantic bro. Embrace it and let them hamsters get licken.

[Lunatic]

This take is Max Kellerman “the cliff” level retarded and it makes you come off extremely
Salty.

Also any game Tom Brady wins you find a way to praise somebody els... clearly agenda driven.

Somthing tells me if Rodgers came back and scored TDs off those INTs you would be slobbering all over Rodgers and giving him all the credit while ignoring the fact that his defense got the 3 picks.

Flip sides and say Brady does it and “Brady didn’t win, his defense did”

At the end of the day, you’re the Atlantic bro. Embrace it and let them hamsters get licken.

You're too stupid to debate with.

Comparing Brady's 2020 (with a better team) with Winston's 2019 (with an inferior team), yes, Brady underperformed. I said Brady didn't win the game with TWO games, dip****. ****ing two... and it's the truth but you're too blinded by Brady's balls in your face to see it. You'd probably deny TB's defense dominating KC because it takes the focus away from Brady, too.

I don't even ****ing like Rodgers...

This is the retarded **** that I'm talking about. You see something contrary to what you think and you do mental gymnastics to ignore the points brought up. "It'S iRrElVaNt!"

[Vhagar]

Greatness is the standard with which rate players. Brady is the greatest because he won more than anyone else and as a major contributor in those wins. In my opinion, Brady's strengths were amplified by having the best organization of all time supporting him and putting him in a great position to succeed. Brady was put into a great opportunity to succeed and with each opportunity, Brady grew and developed into IMO the most unstoppable player the league has ever seen. However, for the majority of their careers Peyton was individually a better player. I'll break down why.

2000 All-Decade: This was an awful decision. Brady missed two seasons in the 2000 and was inferior in both efficiency and bulk stats. Manning was way way ahead in bulk stats, too. This was pretty widely criticized.
2010 All-Decade: Manning retired in 2016 and post-surgery had a noodle arm.

I'm using MVP and All-Pros are a placeholder to show that Manning was better that season by the majority of people. If you'd like, we can dive into any season and we can look at the stats/supporting casts/etc and make an argument. If you're not making an argument that is centered around team success, it is really hard to argue the statistical discrepancy between the two. This gap is further expanded by the fact that Manning was given an unprecedented level of control of the offense almost instantly while Brady had significantly less pressure starting off. As Brady developed into a monster, he took over more and more of the offense but I don't think it was ever at the level Manning had. Additionally, Erhardt Perkins is about exploiting defensive weaknesses while the Colts offense was "let's run the same thing 1000 times LOL".

Note: The Patriots Erhardt-Perkins system is probably the most complex offense in the league to learn while the Colt's "WE HAVE MANNING, WOO" offense is the simplest in the league.

Additionally, we can dive into the Patriot's philosophy of exploiting teams weaknesses is much more effective in the post season compared to the Colt's rigid structure that focuses on high-powered passing attacks and a defense that can't stop the run.

Now this is a post worth acknowledging

My argument against the false goats is pretty simple. Were they perhaps better at throwing a football in a vacuum? On 2nd and 5 in a week 6 regular season game with marginal importance? Maybe they were. And I won’t spend much time trying to dissuade people of that opinion.

But when it really matters, when it’s win or go home how many make that throw time and again? So much is made about Tom Brady always having a top 10 defense, but how many of those QBs commanded top 5 offenses? Peyton Manning had the rules changed for him after taking a beat down from a Belichick defense. What did he do with it?

Only one QB goes through the motions of the regular season, keeping up with his peers, sometimes outperforming them, sometimes not, but is more often than any of them the last one standing.

I’d be happy to read your opinions on their regular seasons if you feel like typing them. But those are my thoughts. Do I think if Bill Belichick had handed over the reigns and built an offense around Brady like the Colts gave Manning he could have been every bit the regular season performer? I do. Would it have hurt his post season legacy? Probably. But then there’d just be another regular season warrior that had to have his legacy debated based on pro bowls and MVP awards

[PITA21]

You're too stupid to debate with.

Comparing Brady's 2020 (with a better team) with Winston's 2019 (with an inferior team), yes, Brady underperformed. I said Brady didn't win the game with TWO games, dip****. ****ing two... and it's the truth but you're too blinded by Brady's balls in your face to see it. You'd probably deny TB's defense dominating KC because it takes the focus away from Brady, too.

I don't even ****ing like Rodgers...

This is the retarded **** that I'm talking about. You see something contrary to what you think and you do mental gymnastics to ignore the points brought up. "It'S iRrElVaNt!"

you've completely lost it when both sides of the argument think you full of chit

time to stop posting, you're getting a bit upset don't you think?

[Lunatic]

I ignore posts I can't refute.

Accurate. Is there a reason? I'm not asking for much. Just a simple ****ing discussion.

you've completely lost it when both sides of the argument think you full of chit

time to stop posting, you're getting a bit upset don't you think?

Lmao. EVERYONE thinks you're retarded.

Do people really think big bad swear words = angry?

[Vhagar]

Accurate. Is there a reason? I'm not asking for much. Just a simple ****ing discussion

As you can see from above I’ll respond when a post merits it. I’m not getting dragged into pointless discussion with people like swept, Jaydawg, pita or most of these tards.

[Lunatic]

As you can see from above I’ll respond when a post merits it. I’m not getting dragged into pointless discussion with people like swept, Jaydawg, pita or most of these tards.

But you always do that. I understand not wanting to get into discussions with retards, but what about my post doesn't merit the discussion. I would think that it's something that most Brady lovers would be happy to talk about

[Belome]

Comparing Brady's 2020 (with a better team) with Winston's 2019 (with an inferior team), yes, Brady underperformed.

This opinion is quite literally 1 of 1. I don’t even think Rob Parker is this stupid.

TB defense played lights out, all the credit in the world to them.

But you are still retarded Mr. Salty saint.

[Lunatic]

This opinion is quite literally 1 of 1. I don’t even think Rob Parker is this stupid.

TB defense played lights out, all the credit in the world to them.

But you are still retarded Mr. Salty saint.

Oh, it's the retard that thinks the Scotty Miller TD is "one of the greatest plays that's ever been."

[Vhagar]

But you always do that. I understand not wanting to get into discussions with retards, but what about my post doesn't merit the discussion. I would think that it's something that most Brady lovers would be happy to talk about

Which post specifically? That Brady underperformed? He threw 40 TDs at 43 years old with a new team that had no offseason.

That’s not just fun rhetoric parroted by his fans. He got asked to leave public parks for trying to hold a throwing session because of a scamdemic. Were the Bucs a solid team a QB away from being a real threat? Obviously. And now they’re champions.

Do you want one of us to say Brady didn’t drag them to victory by himself? Of course not. But don’t claim he played poorly in the various games. He put the game out of reach in the picker game and relied on Erin’s record against good teams when down at halftime. That worked

He played well enough in the Saints game, against a team that tormented him all season and walked out a winner.

What exactly do you want me to debate with you? I don’t believe he’s infallible. It’s just the part we play here when arguing with retards

[Belome]

Oh, it's the retard that thinks the Scotty Miller TD is "one of the greatest plays that's ever been."

It’s damn near fap worthy.

Its like the Minneapolis miracle but better.

[dyee4613]

Now this is a post worth acknowledging

My argument against the false goats is pretty simple. Were they perhaps better at throwing a football in a vacuum? On 2nd and 5 in a week 6 regular season game with marginal importance? Maybe they were. And I won’t spend much time trying to dissuade people of that opinion.

But when it really matters, when it’s win or go home how many make that throw time and again? So much is made about Tom Brady always having a top 10 defense, but how many of those QBs commanded top 5 offenses? Peyton Manning had the rules changed for him after taking a beat down from a Belichick defense. What did he do with it?

Only one QB goes through the motions of the regular season, keeping up with his peers, sometimes outperforming them, sometimes not, but is more often than any of them the last one standing.

I’d be happy to read your opinions on their regular seasons if you feel like typing them. But those are my thoughts. Do I think if Bill Belichick had handed over the reigns and built an offense around Brady like the Colts gave Manning he could have been every bit the regular season performer? I do. Would it have hurt his post season legacy? Probably. But then there’d just be another regular season warrior that had to have his legacy debated based on pro bowls and MVP awards

I pretty much agree with everything you said. In the most important moments of the game, Brady tended to step up and have that game-winning drive while Manning tended to throw a backbreaking interception. The difference, in my opinion, is that Manning has to be amazing 100% of the time while Brady has to be amazing 80-90% of the time. Due to the structural differences, I would trust Manning more for any given play but due to increased pressure due to system inefficiencies he gets put in much more difficult situations that lead to failures while Brady is in much more favorable situations which is why he succeeds. This is why Manning is the better player but Brady is the GOAT.

Manning was the entire Colt's franchise from day one. Peyton's preparation and ability to read defenses were second to none. This led to him having an unprecedented level of control over the Colt's offense almost immediately. I think Peyton began running the no-huddle in his second year. This is notable because the scripted West Cost offense was the most popular system. In addition to Peyton's absurd IQ, his master over the offense comes from the Colts only used a few formations and a few plays. It was super simple and relied on Peyton's adjustments at the line, no-huddle, and high levels of execution. The Colt's defense ran Tampa 2 which focused on building a team of undersized speedy players who could cover a lot of ground and play the pass well. The limitation of the Tampa 2 is undersized players are weak against the run.

TL;DR - The Colt's built a high-powered passing offense with little mystery or flexibility that was reliant on Peyton outsmarting defenses pair with a defense that wasn't built to stop the run.

Brady's offense is the Erhardt-Perkins which was originally an offense designed to maximize efficiency in cold weather through an emphasis on the run game and short passes. The major difference of the E-P system with other systems is it relies on concepts rather than routes which allow a lot more flexibility with formations. Additionally, it is a philosophy neutral system that is important because the Patriot's offense changed drastically over Brady's career with a power run focus to a shotgun lead attack to dual tight ends (49ers did it first!). This is a cornerstone of the Patriots. Find out what you suck at and do that until you stop us. I'm not going to talk about defense because Bill Belichick is the greatest defensive mind in NFL history by a mile.

TL;DR - Patriots adapt to what you do and kick your ass

The E-P system is currently run by six NFL teams: Broncos, Patriots, Chargers, Panthers, Steelers and Giants. In other words, Erhardt-Perkins has won seven of the last 12 Super Bowls with a chance to make it eight as the Broncos or Patriots will be representing the AFC this year.

Manning's career path has basically always been the same. He runs the same basic Manning offense and relies on his supercomputer of a brain to succeed. The issue is against better defenses the margin of error becomes smaller and Manning's offenses already operate on a much thinner margin than other teams. This is compounded by the fact it's harder to pass in cold weather and you don't have as many opportunities because your defense can't stop the run. As a result, Manning suffers a much bigger drop (11.9 points) compared to Brady (6.4 points) against top 5 defenses.

Brady's career is one of constant evolution. He started out as a rookie in a very complex system and the play-calling supported that. Brady had like 415 passes his rookie season while Manning had 575. As Brady evolved, the offense evolved with him as he took on more and more responsibility and went from game manager to star. I'm not sure when but around 2010 the Patriots moved to a Brady-centric offense and he dominated with no-huddle just like Manning. The difference is Brady has far more flexiblity in how he can attack and you and develop more counters. Also, it helps the defense doesn't know all his plays.

TL;DR - Manning has been a 9/10 player from coming into the league. Brady was a 5/10 but kept leveling up to 10/10.

[YoungMetro24]

[QUOTE=dyee4613;1631937203]I pretty much agree with everything you said. In the most important moments of the game, Brady tended to step up and have that game-winning drive while Manning tended to throw a backbreaking interception. The difference, in my opinion, is that Manning has to be amazing 100% of the time while Brady has to be amazing 80-90% of the time. Due to the structural differences, I would trust Manning more for any given play but due to increased pressure due to system inefficiencies he gets put in much more difficult situations that lead to failures while Brady is in much more favorable situations which is why he succeeds. This is why Manning is the better player but Brady is the GOAT.

Manning was the entire Colt's franchise from day one. Peyton's preparation and ability to read defenses were second to none. This led to him having an unprecedented level of control over the Colt's offense almost immediately. I think Peyton began running the no-huddle in his second year. This is notable because the scripted West Cost offense was the most popular system. In addition to Peyton's absurd IQ, his master over the offense comes from the Colts only used a few formations and a few plays. It was super simple and relied on Peyton's adjustments at the line, no-huddle, and high levels of execution. The Colt's defense ran Tampa 2 which focused on building a team of undersized speedy players who could cover a lot of ground and play the pass well. The limitation of the Tampa 2 is undersized players are weak against the run.

TL;DR - The Colt's built a high-powered passing offense with little mystery or flexibility that was reliant on Peyton outsmarting defenses pair with a defense that wasn't built to stop the run.

Brady's offense is the Erhardt-Perkins which was originally an offense designed to maximize efficiency in cold weather through an emphasis on the run game and short passes. The major difference of the E-P system with other systems is it relies on concepts rather than routes which allow a lot more flexibility with formations. Additionally, it is a philosophy neutral system that is important because the Patriot's offense changed drastically over Brady's career with a power run focus to a shotgun lead attack to dual tight ends (49ers did it first!). This is a cornerstone of the Patriots. Find out what you suck at and do that until you stop us. I'm not going to talk about defense because Bill Belichick is the greatest defensive mind in NFL history by a mile.

TL;DR - Patriots adapt to what you do and kick your ass

[/QUOTE= This quote from was 2014]The E-P system is currently run by six NFL teams: Broncos, Patriots, Chargers, Panthers, Steelers and Giants. In other words, Erhardt-Perkins has won seven of the last 12 Super Bowls with a chance to make it eight as the Broncos or Patriots will be representing the AFC this year.

Manning's career path has basically always been the same. He runs the same basic Manning offense and relies on his supercomputer of a brain to succeed. The issue is against better defenses the margin of error becomes smaller and Manning's offenses already operate on a much thinner margin than other teams. This is compounded by the fact it's harder to pass in cold weather and you don't have as many opportunities because your defense can't stop the run. As a result, Manning suffers a much bigger drop (11.9 points) compared to Brady (6.4 points) against top 5 defenses.

Brady's career is one of constant evolution. He started out as a rookie in a very complex system and the play-calling supported that. Brady had like 415 passes his rookie season while Manning had 575. As Brady evolved, the offense evolved with him as he took on more and more responsibility and went from game manager to star. I'm not sure when but around 2010 the Patriots moved to a Brady-centric offense and he dominated with no-huddle just like Manning. The difference is Brady has far more flexiblity in how he can attack and you and develop more counters. Also, it helps the defense doesn't know all his plays.

TL;DR - Manning has been a 9/10 player from coming into the league. Brady was a 5/10 but kept leveling up to 10/10.

TL;DR - Peyton = Vegeta, Brady = Goku

[bigcat3655]

Not surprising tbh. Best =/= GOAT. Just like Gretzky wasn't actually the best nhl player, but he's the GOAT. Mario Lemieux was bigger, faster, stronger, more talented, and a better player. But Gretzky put up the numbers and the rings so he's the GOAT

[BigDeeps01]

Not surprising tbh. Best =/= GOAT. Just like Gretzky wasn't actually the best nhl player, but he's the GOAT. Mario Lemieux was bigger, faster, stronger, more talented, and a better player. But Gretzky put up the numbers and the rings so he's the GOAT

This best vs goat idea is just retarded cope to give other players participation trophies. It's a legit stupid way of looking at it.

Brady = GOAT. No "best" participation trophy for manning, sorry

[dyee4613]

This best vs goat idea is just retarded cope to give other players participation trophies. It's a legit stupid way of looking at it.

Brady = GOAT. No "best" participation trophy for manning, sorry

True. Why would anyone look into coaching, schemes, personnel, etc when you can just point to a trophy? Soft-ass football players need participation trophies like MVPs, All-Pros, and Pro-bowls to cope with the fact they can't win a real trophy.

TL;DR - Peyton = Vegeta, Brady = Goku

Legitimately jealous I didn't write this.

[PITA21]

Peyton Manning literally had hgh delivered to his door and couldn’t get it together to choking hard in the superbowl

Tom Brady doesn’t even lift weights and he’s winning superbowls 5 years later, he barely lost a few superbowls. Manning got blown out and choked early on a regular basis

Tom is the goat because he’s literally a physiological superhuman