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  1. #61
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    Originally Posted by LukeS1 View Post
    Lamar is literally a better version of Kyler Murray

    I can understand a difference in opinion when you are evaluating pocket passers against Lamar, they are completely different overall

    But are you really telling me Stafford would have taken this untalented Ravens offense to 1st in points in 2019, and 7th in 2020 while keeping turnovers to an absolute minimum? Can't see it
    Murray can throw much better than Lamar. Lamar can take hits and run better but that's not worth the trade off.

    If Stafford was on the Ravens, they would have built their team much differently. As much as you want to dog on the Ravens WRs, there are teams with far worse OLs than the Ravens. And besides I think Lamar probably thinks makes his WRs look worse than what they are.
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    Originally Posted by LukeS1 View Post
    Lamar is literally a better version of Kyler Murray

    I can understand a difference in opinion when you are evaluating pocket passers against Lamar, they are completely different overall

    But are you really telling me Stafford would have taken this untalented Ravens offense to 1st in points in 2019, and 7th in 2020 while keeping turnovers to an absolute minimum? Can't see it
    Carr, Murray, Ryan, Stafford MOST DEF couldn't be able to. His entire premise falls on itself just at first glance. He's a top 5-7 QB in this league with some of the worst receiving core in the NFL
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  3. #63
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    Originally Posted by DynamicDot View Post
    Murray can throw much better than Lamar. Lamar can take hits and run better but that's not worth the trade off.

    If Stafford was on the Ravens, they would have built their team much differently. As much as you want to dog on the Ravens WRs, there are teams with far worse OLs than the Ravens. And besides I think Lamar probably thinks makes his WRs look worse than what they are.
    In effect you are agreeing he couldn't


    "They would have built the team differently" is basically saying he needs good receivers.

    Both Lamars years as a starter the Ravens were in the bottom 3 for salary cap spend on offense: https://overthecap.com/positional-spending/

    The offense isn't built around him, it just isn't built at all. He's good enough to produce without talent, and so they have loaded up on defense
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  4. #64
    Registered User DynamicDot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LukeS1 View Post
    In effect you are agreeing he couldn't


    "They would have built the team differently" is basically saying he needs good receivers.

    Both Lamars years as a starter the Ravens were in the bottom 3 for salary cap spend on offense: https://overthecap.com/positional-spending/

    The offense isn't built around him, it just isn't built at all. He's good enough to produce without talent, and so they have loaded up on defense
    They would get much more out of their current WRs than Lamar would. The only reason why they would be "Worse" is because they are built to run the ball which is what Lamar is good at.

    The thing is Kyler Murray could easily do everything Lamar could...except better because Murray is a far superior thrower.
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    Originally Posted by DynamicDot View Post
    They would get much more out of their current WRs than Lamar would. The only reason why they would be "Worse" is because they are built to run the ball which is what Lamar is good at.

    The thing is Kyler Murray could easily do everything Lamar could...except better because Murray is a far superior thrower.
    He's also not great at getting 1st downs, meanwhile Lamar is one of the best in the NFL at doing exactly that. The best thing you can do as a QB for your team is continually get 1st downs on a consistent basis which Lamar has been ELITE at since getting in the league
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  6. #66
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    Kyle Murray ranked 15th in passing last year according to PFF

    Lamar was 16th


    They're basically equally good passers but Lamar is a far better athlete
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  7. #67
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    Originally Posted by DynamicDot View Post
    They would get much more out of their current WRs than Lamar would. The only reason why they would be "Worse" is because they are built to run the ball which is what Lamar is good at.

    The thing is Kyler Murray could easily do everything Lamar could...except better because Murray is a far superior thrower.
    The WRs would get more stats, of course because Stafford can't run so they would be forced to throw more


    Stafford, Carr are not capable of running the number 1 scoring offense with a bottom 3 salary cap offense regardless of how they built them
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  8. #68
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    Lamar in terms of passing is near the bottom, but that doesn’t him stop him from putting the offense on his back. Someone like Kirk Cousins is a way better passer, but his numbers are empty and his passing doesn’t result in chit.
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  9. #69
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    Originally Posted by LukeS1 View Post
    For me top 5-7 at your position is "elite", fair enough if you see it different

    I cant see any reason to put Lamar below any QBs except Mahomes, Rodgers, Wilson, Brady, Watson and Allen
    thats 6 QBs. You would literally take 19% of starting QBs in the league above him. I also think Herbert and Kyler are above Lamar. So now were at 1/4 of QBs better than Lamar. Thats not elite, thats above average territory. Elite is top 3, maybe expanding to include top 5.
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  10. #70
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    Originally Posted by HockeyBacon18 View Post
    thats 6 QBs. You would literally take 19% of starting QBs in the league above him. I also think Herbert and Kyler are above Lamar. So now were at 1/4 of QBs better than Lamar. Thats not elite, thats above average territory. Elite is top 3, maybe expanding to include top 5.
    How.... WTF have either Herbert or Kyler done in this league to place them above Lamar? Kyler is a better thrower who can't sustain first downs like Lamar can. Herbert is a young QB who didn't get WINS like even a raw Lamar could his rookie year. Josh Allen honestly turned into a different QB thanks to Diggs, I don't see how this same scenario couldn't happen to Lamar with a true #1 WR.

    Lamar is able to sustain drives at an ELITE level.
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    Originally Posted by HockeyBacon18 View Post
    thats 6 QBs. You would literally take 19% of starting QBs in the league above him. I also think Herbert and Kyler are above Lamar. So now were at 1/4 of QBs better than Lamar. Thats not elite, thats above average territory. Elite is top 3, maybe expanding to include top 5.
    Those guys i can see an argument for but I wouldnt agree with putting anyone above Lamar except

    Brady, Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes

    Watson is very close but I'm rolling with Lamar
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  12. #72
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    Originally Posted by Jaydawg08 View Post
    Josh Allen honestly turned into a different QB thanks to Diggs, I don't see how this same scenario couldn't happen to Lamar with a true #1 WR.

    Lamar is able to sustain drives at an ELITE level.
    Josh Allen can throw the ball. So naturally when he gets a better receiver, he gets better.

    Lamar sucks at throwing the ball with volume.

    So a better receiver will not make him
    Better.

    If Lamar could sustain drives at an elite level, he would be better than 1-3 in the playoffs with an absolutely elite defense.

    But alas, he is not.
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    Originally Posted by Belome View Post
    Josh Allen can throw the ball. So naturally when he gets a better receiver, he gets better.

    Lamar sucks at throwing the ball with volume.

    So a better receiver will not make him
    Better.

    If Lamar could sustain drives at an elite level, he would be better than 1-3 in the playoffs with an absolutely elite defense.

    But alas, he is not.
    QBs are there to make the offense effective, ie score points

    Lamars Ravens have been 1st and 7th in points in his 2 years as starter

    He is putting up elite production with no surround talent
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  14. #74
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    Originally Posted by LukeS1 View Post

    He is putting up elite production with no surround talent
    Wel agree to disagree.

    Team is built for him and his style.

    His offense is rolling as good as it can be.

    New weapons at WR won’t help him.
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    Originally Posted by Belome View Post
    Wel agree to disagree.

    Team is built for him and his style.

    His offense is rolling as good as it can be.

    New weapons at WR won’t help him.
    What you mean agree to disagree... the stats are right in front of your face you idiot.

    The team really isn't built for him. They lost some heavy offensive line talent that took away a lot of their dominant run offense yet Lamar was STILL able to drag them to the playoffs and win a playoff game.

    This is just stupid posting, and honestly you should be banned from this topic or people not take you seriously, because there are numerous examples of young QBs turning the corner after getting a solid WR group. Lamar has a bottom 3 WR group and not even an elite RB group behind him either.
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    Originally Posted by Jaydawg08 View Post
    because there are numerous examples of young QBs turning the corner after getting a solid WR group. Lamar has a bottom 3 WR group and not even an elite RB group behind him either.
    Looking at the stats...absolutely nothing says top 5 QB, it’s just you coping because nobody thinks your golden boy is as good as you think he is.

    And he regressed.

    Popular opinion is Lamar doesn’t have a bottom
    3 receiving group, and if they are, it’s because of Lamars lack of capability in the passing game.

    There are zero examples of a QB like Lamar getting better with a “solid” receiving group because Lamar is 1 of 1.

    If you want to keep pretending a rushing QB suddenly learns how to throw to the outside once the names on the back of his receivers shirts change... that’s your own idiocy at work.

    You can keep coping, but Lamar is going down and out.
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    Originally Posted by Belome View Post
    Looking at the stats...absolutely nothing says top 5 QB, it’s just you coping because nobody thinks your golden boy is as good as you think he is.

    And he regressed.

    Popular opinion is Lamar doesn’t have a bottom
    3 receiving group, and if they are, it’s because of Lamars lack of capability in the passing game.

    There are zero examples of a QB like Lamar getting better with a “solid” receiving group because Lamar is 1 of 1.

    If you want to keep pretending a rushing QB suddenly learns how to throw to the outside once the names on the back of his receivers shirts change... that’s your own idiocy at work.

    You can keep coping, but Lamar is going down and out.
    LMAO at regressing to a pro bowl caliber player instead of an MVP candidate due to the offensive line losing key contributions. Their best WR is Willie Snead.... he's a #3-4 on any contender in the NFL. Hollywood Brown is a slot WR who is MASSIVELY inconsistent, they were so desperate for talent on the outside they signed DEZ BRYANT and he actually contributed. Stop talking football in this forum because it's become obvious you have no idea wtf you're talking about

    Umm Mike Vick in 2010, Kaep in the early years with Crabtree, Wilson with the emergence of Doug Baldwin... that's just off the top of my head

    This is such a stupid comparison because QB's like Chad Pennington, Drew Brees, Montana ALL had weak arms and were unable to really have consistent production throwing it to the outside numbers at a high level because of that. STOP TALKING FOOTBALL you don't know wtf you're talking about
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    Originally Posted by Jaydawg08 View Post
    LMAO at regressing to a pro bowl caliber player instead of an MVP candidate due to the offensive line losing key contributions. Their best WR is Willie Snead.... he's a #3-4 on any contender in the NFL. Hollywood Brown is a slot WR who is MASSIVELY inconsistent, they were so desperate for talent on the outside they signed DEZ BRYANT and he actually contributed. Stop talking football in this forum because it's become obvious you have no idea wtf you're talking about

    Umm Mike Vick in 2010, Kaep in the early years with Crabtree, Wilson with the emergence of Doug Baldwin... that's just off the top of my head

    This is such a stupid comparison because QB's like Chad Pennington, Drew Brees, Montana ALL had weak arms and were unable to really have consistent production throwing it to the outside numbers at a high level because of that. STOP TALKING FOOTBALL you don't know wtf you're talking about
    I’ve never seen such levels of cope. You really have a hard on for this guy.

    You are way to emotionally invested for rational conversation.

    Good day.
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    Originally Posted by Belome View Post
    I’ve never seen such levels of cope. You really have a hard on for this guy.

    You are way to emotionally invested for rational conversation.

    Good day.
    Run away now lil boy, leave the football talks to actual intelligent posters on this subforum. You aren't one of them
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    Originally Posted by Belome View Post
    Looking at the stats...absolutely nothing says top 5 QB, .
    How about the fact that last 2 seasons the Ravens have scored more points than any other team?

    https://www.espn.co.uk/nfl/stats/tea...oints/dir/desc

    Outscoring Mahomes with Kelce, Watkins and Hill, while he's throwing to Snead and Boykin is enough to prove he's elite
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    Originally Posted by Jaydawg08 View Post
    How.... WTF have either Herbert or Kyler done in this league to place them above Lamar? Kyler is a better thrower who can't sustain first downs like Lamar can. Herbert is a young QB who didn't get WINS like even a raw Lamar could his rookie year. Josh Allen honestly turned into a different QB thanks to Diggs, I don't see how this same scenario couldn't happen to Lamar with a true #1 WR.

    Lamar is able to sustain drives at an ELITE level.
    Wins are no more a QB stat than they are a pitcher stat. Youre talking about placing a rookie, raw Lamar onto a team that finished 10-6 the year before. Of course he's going to win more games than the guy who went #1 to the worst team in the league at 2-14, or #6 to a team that went 5-11.

    Trevor Lawrence is unlikely to win 6 games this year (the amount that Lamar won year 1) because he's going to a ****ty situation in Jacksonville. that doesnt mean Lamar is the better QB.
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    Originally Posted by HockeyBacon18 View Post
    Wins are no more a QB stat than they are a pitcher stat. Youre talking about placing a rookie, raw Lamar onto a team that finished 10-6 the year before. Of course he's going to win more games than the guy who went #1 to the worst team in the league at 2-14, or #6 to a team that went 5-11.

    Trevor Lawrence is unlikely to win 6 games this year (the amount that Lamar won year 1) because he's going to a ****ty situation in Jacksonville. that doesnt mean Lamar is the better QB.
    Lamar won 6 games, but he only played 7

    I agree wins are a team metric but you don't end up 30-7 without a damn good QB, unless you have an all time great defense
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    Lmao, no.

    Definitely one of the, if not the, ugliest QB's though.
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    Originally Posted by LukeS1 View Post
    Lamar won 6 games, but he only played 7

    I agree wins are a team metric but you don't end up 30-7 without a damn good QB, unless you have an all time great defense
    Just because he plays at the QB position, and does extraordinarily well running the ball, doesn't mean he's a top 5, elite QB. I seriously don't understand how you think that. Taysom ****ing Hill, a bad QB, won games for the Saints while playing behind center. Didn't make him a good QB for those games. He was just a great athlete that forces the defense to do things that they didn't have to normally do against other teams. It's the same with Lamar, except Lamar has been the Ravens' only option and is a better athlete than Taysom.
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    To OP's credit he made and continues to make a better argument than I thought was there...

    But concerning the weapons, or lack thereof argument, I haven't been completely convinced Lamar could support a true #1 WR

    And maybe this is more of an indictment on the Ravens' offensive philosophy than Lamar himself, but even prime Moss magically inserted to the lineup screams 850yds 10 TDs of production to me
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    Originally Posted by AMeyer9 View Post
    Definitely one of the, if not the, ugliest QB's though.
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    Lamar is a very talented player but just like Mahomes and every other "mobile QB" needs to learn a QB can only run for so long until he is busted by a defense that is smarter and faster. Athleticism does not beat intelligence. A QB constantly running and attempting to throw passes on the run is not the sign of a great QB, it is clear indication your QB lacks the ability to read a defense and call a play to take advantage of what the defense is giving.
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    Originally Posted by thedarrenestes View Post
    To OP's credit he made and continues to make a better argument than I thought was there...

    But concerning the weapons, or lack thereof argument, I haven't been completely convinced Lamar could support a true #1 WR

    And maybe this is more of an indictment on the Ravens' offensive philosophy than Lamar himself, but even prime Moss magically inserted to the lineup screams 850yds 10 TDs of production to me
    I think he clears 1000 yards for sure, Lamar actually has a pretty damn good deep ball

    The reason he needs a WR1 though, is not for massive yard accumulation. He needs somebody to divert attention away so Andrews is double covered less, and a possession guy that he can throw to quickly when teams stack the box

    Allen Robinson would be ideal, I think he would take them to another level
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    Originally Posted by Cartiac View Post
    Lamar is a very talented player but just like Mahomes and every other "mobile QB" needs to learn a QB can only run for so long until he is busted by a defense that is smarter and faster. Athleticism does not beat intelligence. A QB constantly running and attempting to throw passes on the run is not the sign of a great QB, it is clear indication your QB lacks the ability to read a defense and call a play to take advantage of what the defense is giving.
    Just because TB12 is the goat doesn't mean that's the only way to play the QB position

    The QB is there to lead an offense to scoring as many points as possible while minimising turnovers, Lamar is damn good at that

    Maybe 5 years ago I would agree with you that run first QBs could never be the ideal, but Lamar has changed that. He makes the NFL play like college games
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    Originally Posted by Lunatic View Post
    Just because he plays at the QB position, and does extraordinarily well running the ball, doesn't mean he's a top 5, elite QB. I seriously don't understand how you think that. Taysom ****ing Hill, a bad QB, won games for the Saints while playing behind center. Didn't make him a good QB for those games. He was just a great athlete that forces the defense to do things that they didn't have to normally do against other teams. It's the same with Lamar, except Lamar has been the Ravens' only option and is a better athlete than Taysom.
    Fundamentally the offenses purpose is to score points, and minimise turnovers

    I dont care if my QB lacks conventional pocket passer attributes if he's able to do that effectively, hell I dont care if he doesnt throw once. If he leads the offense to score more points than the other team thats all that matters
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