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  1. #1
    Registered User Calikid32190's Avatar
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    Volume when it comes to training

    A question I had is hypertrophy vs strength training. I’ve been doing F5 on here for so long and I used to do Vikings and thinking about going back to Vikings because on F5 he recommends not to do on a cut.

    Now when comparing the 2 programs they have very similar exercises with Vikings actually having more exercises to do.

    An example is back squat. Vikings is 4x8 because with his program you have to hit 32 reps so I’m just going with 4x8 for this example. With F5 his squat is 3x5 for a total of 15 reps.

    With F5 let’s say your 5RM is 175 pounds so 175x15=2625 total pounds moved in 15 reps. Then with Vikings since his has more volume we decide to go with 135 pounds. 135x32=4320 total pounds moved which is almost double the amount of the strength training.

    So my question becomes this, would it just be better to do hypertrophy training? You may be lifting at a lower weight but that lower weight has more reps. Also moving down 40 pounds from 175 to 135 would be a nice welcome and would actually wind up being more weight moved at 40 pounds lighter and on a cut that could help.

    Basically why go the strength training route besides the fact you may be able to finish your workout faster and you get stronger but it puts a lot more stress on the body lifting at such high weights and you will get stronger and bigger muscles doing hypertrophy as well. Strength gains will of course be better on strength training but strength can still be gained on hypertrophy.
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    Read the strength vs size sticky
    Age: 28
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    Registered User Calikid32190's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    Read the strength vs size sticky
    I’ve read that that’s where I was able to get some of the info from. He says about specializing into one or the other after newbie gains. I’m just wondering why anyone would go the strength training route. I mean I didn’t mind F5 but if I switched to Vikings I would move more total weight granted it would be more reps and sometimes more sets.

    Also I seen hypertrophy is for bigger muscles and strength training is for just that more strength. It mentions both can be attained at early stages of weight lifting but then specialization has to happen.

    Also I’m not sure Vikings is a hypertrophy program or not because he doesn’t specify if it is like with F5 he says it’s strength training.
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    Unregistered User MyEgoProblem's Avatar
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    Tonnage in kg/lbs is basically irrelevant. Don't bother with it... It's just wasting your time.

    Hard sets are the standard for hypertrophy gains. Fierce 5 with ramp ups has basically ass much with in the 'hard sets' category unless you skip your ramps.

    Both are a balance of volume and intensity and both will work fantastically. For a novice or barely matters, but if vikings has a few more sets you may get a few grams more muscle every few weeks.

    Neither are great for maximum strength at all. You need singles practice for that. But f5 will set you up better to move to a strength program.

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    Registered User Calikid32190's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    Tonnage in kg/lbs is basically irrelevant. Don't bother with it... It's just wasting your time.

    Hard sets are the standard for hypertrophy gains. Fierce 5 with ramp ups has basically ass much with in the 'hard sets' category unless you skip your ramps.

    Both are a balance of volume and intensity and both will work fantastically. For a novice or barely matters, but if vikings has a few more sets you may get a few grams more muscle every few weeks.

    Neither are great for maximum strength at all. You need singles practice for that. But f5 will set you up better to move to a strength program.

    Pick which ever you enjoy must. It's basically just flavour. You Litterally wot notice a difference.
    The fact you wouldn’t notice a difference between the 2 programs it would probably be better to go with Vikings for the fact that you can lift lower weight but end up lifting more total pounds then a strength training program as in an example of doing 135 pounds 4x8 compared to to 175 points 3x5.

    The ramp up you’re referring to for F5 is when you increase the weight every week right? If that’s the case sometimes it’s hard to ramp up on that program because you eventually hit a weight that you just get stuck at and have to add more reps until you can get through that weight.
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    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Calikid32190 View Post
    I’ve read that that’s where I was able to get some of the info from. He says about specializing into one or the other after newbie gains. I’m just wondering why anyone would go the strength training route. I mean I didn’t mind F5 but if I switched to Vikings I would move more total weight granted it would be more reps and sometimes more sets.

    Also I seen hypertrophy is for bigger muscles and strength training is for just that more strength. It mentions both can be attained at early stages of weight lifting but then specialization has to happen.

    Also I’m not sure Vikings is a hypertrophy program or not because he doesn’t specify if it is like with F5 he says it’s strength training.
    I think you're confusing yourself by labeling F5 as a strength program, and saying repeatedly it's better to do Vikings because it's hypertrophy training and then now say you don't even know if it's hypertrophy.

    Aside from the fact that if you're talking post-newbie gains, F5 has an intermediate program with diff progression and rep schemes than the novice program.

    That being said, do whichever program you prefer for whatever reasons you want. I don't either would be a mistake - although there are other good programs out there as well.
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    I think you're confusing yourself by labeling F5 as a strength program, and saying repeatedly it's better to do Vikings because it's hypertrophy training and then now say you don't even know if it's hypertrophy.

    Aside from the fact that if you're talking post-newbie gains, F5 has an intermediate program with diff progression and rep schemes than the novice program.

    That being said, do whichever program you prefer for whatever reasons you want. I don't either would be a mistake - although there are other good programs out there as well.
    I would love to do the intermediate level for F5 but he didn’t have one setup for 3 day full body. I need the 3 day full body type as I typically only have Monday Wednesday and Friday. Not sure how to make an intermediate of his program that will for the 3 a days. What other programs would you recommend for hypertrophy? There’s only a few different programs pinned which are the only ones I know like Vikings and F5
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    Unregistered User MyEgoProblem's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Calikid32190 View Post
    The fact you wouldn’t notice a difference between the 2 programs it would probably be better to go with Vikings for the fact that you can lift lower weight but end up lifting more total pounds then a strength training program as in an example of doing 135 pounds 4x8 compared to to 175 points 3x5.

    The ramp up you’re referring to for F5 is when you increase the weight every week right? If that’s the case sometimes it’s hard to ramp up on that program because you eventually hit a weight that you just get stuck at and have to add more reps until you can get through that weight.
    Again lbs/kg moved as a metric is irrelevant for this.

    And no, I'm taking ramp up sets not weekly progression.

    40kg x5
    60kg x5
    80kg x5 easy ramp ups
    ..
    100kg x5 pretty hard sets
    110kg x5
    120kg x5
    120kg x5
    120kg x5

    Hard sets described as @6-10rpe or 0-4reps in the tank.
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    Originally Posted by Calikid32190 View Post
    I would love to do the intermediate level for F5 but he didn’t have one setup for 3 day full body. I need the 3 day full body type as I typically only have Monday Wednesday and Friday. Not sure how to make an intermediate of his program that will for the 3 a days. What other programs would you recommend for hypertrophy? There’s only a few different programs pinned which are the only ones I know like Vikings and F5
    Its difficult to get an intermediate program with only 3 days. The best way to do it IMO is Lower/Upper/Full. Id hammer volume on the upper and lower days and scale it down for the FB day. Just use the Fierce 5 templates and make a hybrid. I remember years ago Davis went over this. I'm not sure where the post is. Probably in the comprehensive thread.
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    Originally Posted by Calikid32190 View Post
    I would love to do the intermediate level for F5 but he didn’t have one setup for 3 day full body. I need the 3 day full body type as I typically only have Monday Wednesday and Friday. Not sure how to make an intermediate of his program that will for the 3 a days. What other programs would you recommend for hypertrophy? There’s only a few different programs pinned which are the only ones I know like Vikings and F5
    I think Barbell Medicine and Greyskull have 3-day fbs that might be closer to whatever "intermediate" means to you, but others who've run them would be able to give you more useful feedback.
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    It's fairly easy to write a 3 day full body dup setup or a 4day concurrent full body for an Intermediate or more advanced lifter.
    In many ways superior to a, 4,5 or 6 day "split"
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    Tonnage in kg/lbs is basically irrelevant. Don't bother with it... It's just wasting your time.

    Hard sets are the standard for hypertrophy gains. Fierce 5 with ramp ups has basically ass much with in the 'hard sets' category unless you skip your ramps.

    Both are a balance of volume and intensity and both will work fantastically. For a novice or barely matters, but if vikings has a few more sets you may get a few grams more muscle every few weeks.

    Neither are great for maximum strength at all. You need singles practice for that. But f5 will set you up better to move to a strength program.

    Pick which ever you enjoy must. It's basically just flavour. You Litterally wot notice a difference.
    This x100. Except I take it to the extreme and go to failure lol, **** it
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    Again lbs/kg moved as a metric is irrelevant for this.

    And no, I'm taking ramp up sets not weekly progression.

    40kg x5
    60kg x5
    80kg x5 easy ramp ups
    ..
    100kg x5 pretty hard sets
    110kg x5
    120kg x5
    120kg x5
    120kg x5

    Hard sets described as @6-10rpe or 0-4reps in the tank.
    That’s missing from F5 there isn’t any ramp ups in that. Instead he has it set to increase weight every week. Why doesn’t the amount of weight matter as a metric? Isn’t that how we measure how much strength we’re building by being able to load more and more?
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    ^adding reps = evidence of improvement in strength as a result of adaption to proper training. I don’t like F5 personally because I wasn’t able to keep up with the fairly strict progression scheme (must add a rep to each set per session, reset if you can’t do it)... it’s not individualized, but Viking’s is. I’ve been running modified (only modded after 2-3 years when equipment became scarce and I needed to address personal weak points) versions of bare bones, first UL then ULPPL, with pretty good results. Basically you can customize your own rep -adding protocol with a cumulative rep goal across [x] sets based on what you respond to the best. For example for squats I do:

    Lower: 5, 5, 5, 6
    Legs: 5, 5, 6, 6
    Lower: 5, 6, 6, 6
    Legs: 6, 6, 6, 6
    Etc. etc. until 8, 8, 8, 8 is achieved (or sometimes 7, 8, 8, 9)

    Because I respond better to keeping set 1 relatively conservative in reps and RPE to save gas for subsequent sets and allow adaption to occur more smoothly. In the end, I get more done because I’m able to mitigate fatigue (sometimes I run into walls w/ assistance and isos, but for the most part this scheme works well) and keep going instead of spinning in circles resetting because I don’t have to take a step backwards if I can’t adhere to the program’s timeline.

    If you can find a way to add reps that works best for you—maybe you respond best to adding a rep in the first set or somewhere in the middle—then you’ve got your ideal progression scheme that allows you, as an individual with individual needs, to progress in strength and hypertrophy. But if you’re not a powerlifting competitor idk why “strength” in the sense of load/1RM alone is even useful.
    Last edited by Xpiro; 02-14-2021 at 06:39 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Xpiro View Post
    ^adding reps = evidence of improvement in strength as a result of adaption to proper training. I don’t like F5 personally because I wasn’t able to keep up with the fairly strict progression scheme (must add a rep to each set per session, reset if you can’t do it)... it’s not individualized, but Viking’s is. I’ve been running modified (only modded after 2-3 years when equipment became scarce and I needed to address personal weak points) versions of bare bones, first UL then ULPPL, with pretty good results. Basically you can customize your own rep -adding protocol with a cumulative rep goal across [x] sets based on what you respond to the best. For example for squats I do:

    Lower: 5, 5, 5, 6
    Legs: 5, 5, 6, 6
    Lower: 5, 6, 6, 6
    Legs: 6, 6, 6, 6
    Etc. etc. until 8, 8, 8, 8 is achieved (or sometimes 7, 8, 8, 9)

    Because I respond better to keeping set 1 relatively conservative in reps and RPE to save gas for subsequent sets and allow adaption to occur more smoothly. In the end, I get more done because I’m able to mitigate fatigue (sometimes I run into walls w/ assistance and isos, but for the most part this scheme works well) and keep going instead of spinning in circles resetting because I don’t have to take a step backwards if I can’t adhere to the program’s timeline.

    If you can find a way to add reps that works best for you—maybe you respond best to adding a rep in the first set or somewhere in the middle—then you’ve got your ideal progression scheme that allows you, as an individual with individual needs, to progress in strength and hypertrophy. But if you’re not a powerlifting competitor idk why “strength” in the sense of load/1RM alone is even useful.
    I have to agree with the difficulty of doing F5 when it comes to have to consistently ramp up the weight every single week and if not you have to reset as you said. It is very restrictive and at times I felt I was stuck in the same spot because I couldn’t progress further unless I wanted to drop the weight by 15% and start again.

    With bare bones do you use lighter weight then you did on F5? Like what are your number comparisons between the 2?
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    It's fairly easy to write a 3 day full body dup setup or a 4day concurrent full body for an Intermediate or more advanced lifter.
    In many ways superior to a, 4,5 or 6 day "split"

    Basically what does a fully body 3 days look like on an intermediate program going for hypertrophy? Most of what I seen says hypertrophy is more sets and reps less weight and strength training is more weight less reps less sets.

    So what would be a good rep scheme for hypertrophy using Vikings plan as a sample? 4 sets 32 reps for back squat seems to be both good in reps and sets which is what hypertrophy utilizes.
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    Originally Posted by Calikid32190 View Post
    That’s missing from F5 there isn’t any ramp ups in that. Instead he has it set to increase weight every week. Why doesn’t the amount of weight matter as a metric? Isn’t that how we measure how much strength we’re building by being able to load more and more?
    What are you talking about?
    Every program has you warm up/ramp up
    Just showing you how to do it with a hyp bias as opposed to a few singles how many do for str.
    Very basic, entry level things to do.

    And I was very specific in that was in reference to total tonnage per workout..


    Originally Posted by Calikid32190 View Post
    I have to agree with the difficulty of doing F5 when it comes to have to consistently ramp up the weight every single week and if not you have to reset as you said. It is very restrictive and at times I felt I was stuck in the same spot because I couldn’t progress further unless I wanted to drop the weight by 15% and start again.

    With bare bones do you use lighter weight then you did on F5? Like what are your number comparisons between the 2?
    Again. That's not ramping up that's weekly progression. And if you keep getting stuck..

    You move on. Either progression is too fast for your stage or your nutrition/recovery is insufficient.
    Last edited by MyEgoProblem; 02-15-2021 at 06:07 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Calikid32190 View Post
    Basically what does a fully body 3 days look like on an intermediate program going for hypertrophy? Most of what I seen says hypertrophy is more sets and reps less weight and strength training is more weight less reps less sets.

    So what would be a good rep scheme for hypertrophy using Vikings plan as a sample? 4 sets 32 reps for back squat seems to be both good in reps and sets which is what hypertrophy utilizes.
    Literally every rep scheme works for hypertrophy provided you’re close enough to failure.

    Use a mix of ranges depending on goals, recovery, and movement pattern.

    4x8 and 8x4 will yield the same results when volume is equated.

    The strength biased workout will take way longer and will lead to more joint stress and burnout over time compared to doing a more “hypertrophy” biased routine.

    As others mentioned barbell medicine has some 3 day programs that are a decent blend of strength/hypertrophy/GPP focused work.
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    Literally every rep scheme works for hypertrophy provided you’re close enough to failure.

    Use a mix of ranges depending on goals, recovery, and movement pattern.

    4x8 and 8x4 will yield the same results when volume is equated.

    The strength biased workout will take way longer and will lead to more joint stress and burnout over time compared to doing a more “hypertrophy” biased routine.

    As others mentioned barbell medicine has some 3 day programs that are a decent blend of strength/hypertrophy/GPP focused work.
    This. Read this post 3 times if you have to.
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    Originally Posted by TolerantLactose View Post
    Programming doesn't matter if you half-ass everything.
    Or 'change **** up' every week.....
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    Literally every rep scheme works for hypertrophy provided you’re close enough to failure.

    Use a mix of ranges depending on goals, recovery, and movement pattern.

    4x8 and 8x4 will yield the same results when volume is equated.

    The strength biased workout will take way longer and will lead to more joint stress and burnout over time compared to doing a more “hypertrophy” biased routine.

    As others mentioned barbell medicine has some 3 day programs that are a decent blend of strength/hypertrophy/GPP focused work.
    I used to love Vikings and it was the first program I did before I switched to F5 and F5 definitely worked because for the year I did Vikings I couldn’t get more than 155 on my back squat and then switching to F5 I got all the way to 225 on back squat. The thing with Vikings is he says if you fail you do the same weight again. He doesn’t say to add more reps or sets or to even drop the weight when you fail which is what a lot of programs normally do. I know more than I did when I first did Vikings and know that reps or sets need to increase if you stay at the same weight but he doesn’t mention that and now I wonder why.
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    Originally Posted by Calikid32190 View Post
    I have to agree with the difficulty of doing F5 when it comes to have to consistently ramp up the weight every single week and if not you have to reset as you said. It is very restrictive and at times I felt I was stuck in the same spot because I couldn’t progress further unless I wanted to drop the weight by 15% and start again.

    With bare bones do you use lighter weight then you did on F5? Like what are your number comparisons between the 2?
    It’s been years since I’ve run F5 so at this point I’m lifting more with higher rep ranges and volume than I did back then,but theoretically yeah you would be using less weight if you fail at [x] load on F5’s 5-6 reps and have to get 8 on VBB. At least at the beginning. But you can use a comparable load in a short stretch of time if you knock your reps down to 5 or 6 when you increase load and gradually adapt, adding 1 or 2 reps (total, not per set, unless you can without hitting failure) as you climb up to 8 and repeat. I would start fairly light though with a load with which you can relatively easily achieve 4x8 just to get in the groove of the volume/rep scheme so not to get ahead of yourself and crash. I’ve had the most consistent progress with lifts that I kept conservative from the beginning, and by that I mean a 7-8 RPE per set instead of 9-10.
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    Originally Posted by Calikid32190 View Post
    I used to love Vikings and it was the first program I did before I switched to F5 and F5 definitely worked because for the year I did Vikings I couldn’t get more than 155 on my back squat and then switching to F5 I got all the way to 225 on back squat. The thing with Vikings is he says if you fail you do the same weight again. He doesn’t say to add more reps or sets or to even drop the weight when you fail which is what a lot of programs normally do. I know more than I did when I first did Vikings and know that reps or sets need to increase if you stay at the same weight but he doesn’t mention that and now I wonder why.
    Just one way to skin a cat and realistically just bad advice to keep hammering into the same weight over and over until you get the prescribed reps.

    I see it as a sure fire way to plateau for a long time.

    Like getting 30 reps and upping the weight is probably better than hitting 30/31 for a month or two.

    Fatigue and repeated bout effect take hold and you’re getting less and less stimulus every time you do that weight especially if the first couple sets have you too far away from failure and are basically just fatiguing you without actually stimulating you.

    This is why I think an auto-regulated approach combing rep ranges and rir progression makes way more sense.
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    Just one way to skin a cat and realistically just bad advice to keep hammering into the same weight over and over until you get the prescribed reps.

    I see it as a sure fire way to plateau for a long time.

    Like getting 30 reps and upping the weight is probably better than hitting 30/31 for a month or two.

    Fatigue and repeated bout effect take hold and you’re getting less and less stimulus every time you do that weight especially if the first couple sets have you too far away from failure and are basically just fatiguing you without actually stimulating you.

    This is why I think an auto-regulated approach combing rep ranges and rir progression makes way more sense.
    How could I auto regulate the Viking program? Because I do agree just doing the same weight over and over again until you get past it isn’t going to be very efficient. I did it today and switching from F5 I massively noticed a difference. I didn’t use the same weight from F5 I used 70% of 1RM just to start and I felt way more worn out and harder to breathe. I get there’s a lot more volume it seems in Vikings compared to F5.
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    Few things:

    - Tonnage is useless when comparing two totally different rep scheme
    - Fierce 5 isn't a strength training program and Vikings isn't a hypertrophy program


    You might be able to squeak, MAYBE like 5% more hypertrophy from the Vikings program as it is a bit higher volume with more exercises, but obviously depends on a lot of other variables, which can easily make up that gap.

    I personally like how Greyskull does it's resets (bring the weight down a certain percentage, try to hit a rep PR AMRAP on the last set). One way you could autoregulate Vikings that is more in tune with the program is to bring down the weight a certain amount, maybe like 15% and for your first set, try to hit as many reps as you can to technical failure (or 1-2 reps left in the tank). If you got bigger/stronger, this should be more reps than what you did at your previous weight. Then for your last three sets, divy up the reps remaining how you want to, I guess.
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    Originally Posted by Calikid32190 View Post
    How could I auto regulate the Viking program?
    Vikings already gives you a decent amount of self-regulation, albeit in the reps/set. If you want to incorporate RIR outright then it prob makes more sense to go with a diff program or make one rather than try to bend Vikings to suit that.
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    Vikings already gives you a decent amount of self-regulation, albeit in the reps/set. If you want to incorporate RIR outright then it prob makes more sense to go with a diff program or make one rather than try to bend Vikings to suit that.
    Agreed I think a new program makes more sense.

    Eric helms novice or intermediate bb routines, rp physique, barbell medicine, etc. All incorporate RPE/RIR with pretty defined progression.

    Nuckols SBS program is also a good one to try.
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    Agreed I think a new program makes more sense.

    Eric helms novice or intermediate bb routines, rp physique, barbell medicine, etc. All incorporate RPE/RIR with pretty defined progression.

    Nuckols SBS program is also a good one to try.
    Thank you I’ll see if I can find some of these. I think the barbell medicine one you have to buy for $50 if I was looking at the right thing. The only thing that matters for me in a routine is as long as it has a 3 day program basically has to be full body to be able to be 3day.

    I did do Vikings on Monday and the extra work had me breathing hard. I don’t do cardio as I eat right but I get it can help with cardiovascular things. It definitely felt just as hard if not harder than F5 even though I did all the lifts on Vikings at 70% of my 1RM. It felt more like I was tired which made it harder to lift rather than the weight actually being hard to lift like in F5.

    Also I want to do more of a hypertrophy program then strength training. I want my muscles to be more like a body builder than a power lifter.
    Last edited by Calikid32190; 02-16-2021 at 07:56 PM.
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    If you use google you can find just about anything.

    Also Greg Nuckols will let you pay $5 for sbs and it has multiple spreadsheets including a hypertrophy program and there’s 3 day options.

    There’s also a private Reddit group.

    That may be your best bet.

    https://www.strongerbyscience.com/program-bundle/
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