Do mike mentzer`s heavy-duty hit program only work if you`re very fit?

[eget1985]

I mean, he advocated later in his life to do a single workout to failure every like 5-10 days, but I tried it a little myself some years and I never grew anything, almost nothing in strength ether, but now later I feel I could probably do a single workout and then rest some days before doing the next one, but the difference now is that I`m much better trained, and another thing, he always said you should train to failure, wouldn`t that also drain you uneccessary?

[ArchAngel'73]

Mentzer's system works but...
#1 He and his brother were on gear and almost any weight training protocol will work if one is on gear
#2 Expect injuries, even weight training ending injuries. Dorian doesn't even do HIIT training any more despite swearing by it during his Mr. O reign. This is not a system you want to do when you're older.

I would look into a power/hypertrophy split like Dr. Layne Norton recommends.

[induced_drag]

I did it in my 20's and made some progress (not on gear). BUT....it was f'n HARD. Of course, it is only as hard as you can push yourself.

Back then I had more fight in me. I dont know that I could (willingly) push myself to the levels the program needs you to do for it to work. You literally can leave nothing on the table.

Since I am far from being in a place where I have any gains left, I dont know that I would advocate a program like this to many other than those who really need to find out what they are made of. To find just where your threshold lies of how hard you can push yourself. What I learned about myself benefited me for many years to come.

Learning the connection of body and mind are a BIG part of what makes long-term success in this game.

For anyone but the most die-hard person, this is not the plan for you.

[LWW]

Mentzer may not of trained like that, he got involved with Arthur Jones for a very short time, he got obsessed with acting like Arthur as he got older. That Heavy Duty video, he was acting like AJ.

Sergio Olivia and Casey Viator most likely had more real training time with AJ and his HIT methodology, but those dudes didn't train that way.

The real HIT via A. Jones was a methodology AJ himself used because he loved training but didn't waste his time (or couldn't) with endless sets. It's actually great for athletes, but AJ also built and sold machines, he used the machines to both sell machines and sell his HIT approach.

IMO AJ is the most interesting person in the irongame, I've met folks who trained under him and worked for him. He is also someone I really would not want to deal with either. I think AJ got Casey to once do an impressive set of high rep squats, then he puts 'em on the machines right after the squat, one machine after another.

[adamgentile]

I did a lot of research on Mentzer years ago. He never trained like he did in his books, not even close. He gained his physique by doing a traditional old school split. He wrote HIT long long after he retired and by then was a full blown alcoholic, heavy in pharmaceuticals and *******, he had a lot of demons unfortunately.
Some say he never fully recovered from his lost in 1979 with a perfect score of 300 but lost to Frank Zane, after that lost is when he started taking amphetamines.

[LWW]

I did a lot of research on Mentzer years ago. He never trained like he did in his books, not even close. He gained his physique by doing a traditional old school split. He wrote HIT long long after he retired and by then was a full blown alcoholic, heavy in pharmaceuticals and *******, he had a lot of demons unfortunately.
Some say he never fully recovered from his lost in 1979 with a perfect score of 300 but lost to Frank Zane, after that lost is when he started taking amphetamines.

If anyone is truly interested in HIT, they shouldn't look at Mentzer, Author Jones is the founder and one who wrote the real HIT methodology.

Most won't look to AJ though because he didn't have a Mr. Olympia build, his life was not full time bodybuilding but he did train, and he trained in the jungle at times. AJ did have a great build though.

Some of these HIT'ers though are obsessed with super slow, there is a time and place to be slow and controlled, but AJ to my knowledge didn't obsess over it.

[adamgentile]

If anyone is truly interested in HIT, they shouldn't look at Mentzer, Author Jones is the founder and one who wrote the real HIT methodology.

Most won't look to AJ though because he didn't have a Mr. Olympia build, his life was not full time bodybuilding but he did train, and he trained in the jungle at times. AJ did have a great build though.

Some of these HIT'ers though are obsessed with super slow, there is a time and place to be slow and controlled, but AJ to my knowledge didn't obsess over it.

You are correct about Arthur Jones, he was the founder.

[supramax]

Lots of gold: http://www.arthurjonesexercise.com/B...Bulletin1.html

[brit-iron]

I dont know that I would advocate a program like this to many other than those who really need to find out what they are made of. To find just where your threshold lies of how hard you can push yourself. What I learned about myself benefited me for many years to come.
.

Yes!

I'd say that it takes a lot of drive to push yourself as hard as he advocated. An equally motivated training partner is a must to get the most out of it. Especially with exhausting the negative part of the rep. Definitely something to try, but short term.

[LWW]

Lots of gold: http://www.arthurjonesexercise.com/B...Bulletin1.html

I prefer reading “And God Laughs”.

And it’s non fiction!

[supramax]

I prefer reading “And God Laughs”.

And it’s non fiction!

Haven't read it, eh? You could learn something, even if it's as simple as training to build strength, rather than demonstrate it.

[LWW]

Haven't read it, eh? You could learn something, even if it's as simple as training to build strength, rather than demonstrate it.

I have read the bulletins, they are actually pretty boring, so I forget most of it. I feel you get more out of learning from reading AJ's life.

Too many people over thought HIT and got too obsessed. It comes down to simple basic yet hard training, I learned that from the folks AJ actually used as examples who demonstrated the workouts and continued using them throughout their life. Some of these folks incorporated barbells too, AJ needed to sell those machines.

[OldFartTom]

Can anyone explain to me the foundation of Jones's thinking. I don't gettit. Whether I agree or disagree isn't my concern yet, I don't *understand* it. As far as I see it the crux of his argument is to do with position of muscles under load

"... When a light movement is performed, it does not involve a slight effort on the part of a large number of muscular fibers; instead, only the exact number of fibers that are required to perform that particular movement will be involved at all – and they will be working to the limit of their momentary ability. The other, nonworking fibers may get pushed, pulled, or moved about by the movement – but they will contribute absolutely nothing to the work being performed. Thus, as should be obvious, in order to involve all of the muscle fibers in the work, the resistance must be so heavy that all of the fibers are required to move it. However, in practice, this is extremely difficult to do; because all of the individual muscle fibers cannot be involved in the work unless the muscle is in a position of full contraction..."

Why does he believe that muscles number of fibers can't be fully involved in the work unless the muscle is in a position of full contraction? (by which I think he means a fully contracted position/shortest position) because he continues to say

"...And in almost all conventional exercises, there is literally no resistance in the fully contracted position – at the very point in the exercise where the greatest amount of resistance is required, literally none is provided... "

Is there any currently held physiological basis for that? That the maximum firing rate of fibers or whatever can only occur when the muscle is in its shortest position?

[Domkratos]

Empirically, I also used to entertain the idea that something like "a single workout to failure every like 5-10 days" should work for experienced athletes ONLY. About a decade ago, when I resumed training, it did work for me for a certain period of time. Unfortunately, it's impossible to test its effectiveness "afresh". Anyhow, I know personal trainers monetizing personalised programs based on this concept to a wide range of people with pretty decent results.

[Garage Rat]

So you've given it a good try and didn't get results thats how trial and error works with training.
You should always keep a journal and record your training and results after the time spent doing it.
My training partner and i had some training session with Mentzer in the mid 90's to grasp the concept of HD training.
I believe i took eight sessions under Mentor's supervision at Gold's Venice..
The training was hard,three days a week(M-W-F) covered the whole body,in and within 30 minutes.
You need a partner to train the way Mike wanted you to with forced reps,negative and a spot since you trained to failure for two working sets.
Squeezing out everything you have for those two sets.
My observation was that it for me didn't work any better or less than the traditional training i was doing before hand and there was more risk with injury because of the heavy poundages used.
I liked the time factor though as it freed up time for cardio(contest training)and with work and a family helped me better deal with those obligations.
training protocols work better for some than others and most don't work for ever so you must change things up from time to time the" heavy duty training" was one of those times for me.
When going back to traditional type training i was more aware of getting more out of a set because of my HD experience.