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    There are also diminishing returns with 0-5 RIR?

    We know there are diminishing returns for the amount of sets you do. As far as I know, the effective reps model has become a standard in the lifting community over the past couple years. It states that there are about 5 effective reps in a set that is 5 reps or more. We know that fatigue increases exponentially as you approach failure but, I have a feeling that the growth stimulus also diminishes like it does with subsequent sets. The growth stimulus from 5 to 2 RIR is huge but from 2 to 0 RIR, not so much. It only makes sense because when you do additional sets, you're essentially getting very little growth at the expense of much more fatigue. So the same should apply on the smaller scale of things such as the effective reps within a single set only. Not only that but more that 5 RIR should also offer some growth (albeit mediocre) as it wouldn't make sense for it to be so black and white but instead more like a spectrum.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Animal2692; 01-29-2021 at 08:04 AM.
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    I'm not even sure 5 to 2 rir is that much difference. But yes I'd certainly say 1 and 0 rirs are probably never really worth the fatigue at least for main movements.
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    Originally Posted by WolfRose7 View Post
    I'm not even sure 5 to 2 rir is that much difference. But yes I'd certainly say 1 and 0 rirs are probably never really worth the fatigue at least for main movements.
    This was something I got from Mike Israetel as well lol. He was saying not all effective reps are the same and it's more like an s curve. 5 to 3 RIR is a big difference, 3 to 2 is small, 2 to 1 even smaller, and 1 to 0 much smaller.
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    This was something I got from Mike Israetel as well lol. He was saying not all effective reps are the same and it's more like an s curve. 5 to 3 RIR is a big difference, 3 to 2 is small, 2 to 1 even smaller, and 1 to 0 much smaller.
    Yeah I generally like 7-8 rpe range for the majority of my work
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    "5 effective reps in a set that is 5 reps or more"

    That is for working at 80% or higher of 1rm.

    https://medium.com/@SandCResearch/wh...e-286b8da6f427


    Based on these charts Effective reps are ONLY in the 5 or less RIR range.
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    "5 effective reps in a set that is 5 reps or more"

    That is for working at 80% or higher of 1rm.

    https://medium.com/@SandCResearch/wh...e-286b8da6f427


    Based on these charts Effective reps are ONLY in the 5 or less RIR range.
    Right, but 80% RM is not a prerequisite for effective reps unless you are stopping at 5. But then the max rep table shows 5RM is a 87% and an 8RM is 80%. Going by that table, you'd be getting 8 effective reps instead. It's probably just a rough estimation since people have different fast to slow twitch fiber ratios. Say you take a set to failure with 65%, the last 5 will be considered effective as well, you just have to do more junk reps to get there, in theory. You don't want to do that on an exercise such as squats which are already taxing for example. I think there is a limit to how light you can go though, 50% RM maybe?
    Last edited by Animal2692; 01-29-2021 at 09:42 AM.
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    Originally Posted by WolfRose7 View Post
    Yeah I generally like 7-8 rpe range for the majority of my work
    Do you think RIR converts the same to RPE? So RPE 10 is RIR 0, RPE 9 is RIR 4, RPE 8 is RIR 3...

    And also I think at a certain RIR such as 3, you can do multiple sets without decreasing weight or reps. If it was linear then fatigue would have to be linear too which is not
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Right, but 80% RM is not a prerequisite for effective reps. Say you take a set to failure with 65%, the last 5 will be considered effective as well, you just have to do more junk reps to get there, in theory. You don't want to do that on an exercise such as squats which are already taxing for example. I think there is a limit to how light you can go though, 50% RM maybe?
    Yea it was somewhere around 50-60%. Below that you just get tired from aerobic fatigue and never get to muscle failure.

    20 reps is still 60% of 1rm. I think 50% is 35-40 reps depending on the study.
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Yea it was somewhere around 50-60%. Below that you just get tired from aerobic fatigue and never get to muscle failure.

    20 reps is still 60% of 1rm. I think 50% is 35-40 reps depending on the study.
    Could you theoretically go even lower than 50% on an exercise that doesn't build up much aerobic fatigue and still reach failure? I'm starting to think that the limit on how light you can go and reach failure depends on the exercise.

    Also, this chart here https://strengthlevel.com/one-rep-max-calculator
    Says 81% RM is 8 reps. If an effective rep is at 80%, then theoretically there's 8 effective reps you can get out of a set greater than 8 reps. But that doesn't make sense, either the chart or 80% is a rough estimation or it doesn't take into account people's fiber make-up. What was that one study, if you are fast twitch dominant then you can get 8 reps at 80% other wise it's going to be closer to 5?

    I'm just overthinking for the hell of it at this point, all I know is push the sets close or to failure.
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Could you theoretically go even lower than 50% on an exercise that doesn't build up much aerobic fatigue and still reach failure? I'm starting to think that the limit on how light you can go and reach failure depends on the exercise.

    Also, this chart here https://strengthlevel.com/one-rep-max-calculator
    Says 81% RM is 8 reps. If an effective rep is at 80%, then theoretically there's 8 effective reps you can get out of a set greater than 8 reps. But that doesn't make sense, either the chart or 80% is a rough estimation or it doesn't take into account people's fiber make-up. What was that one study, if you are fast twitch dominant then you can get 8 reps at 80% other wise it's going to be closer to 5?

    I'm just overthinking for the hell of it at this point, all I know is push the sets close or to failure.
    Effective reps is only one model, its not exactly a confirmed fact. Far from it really
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Could you theoretically go even lower than 50% on an exercise that doesn't build up much aerobic fatigue and still reach failure? I'm starting to think that the limit on how light you can go and reach failure depends on the exercise.

    Also, this chart here https://strengthlevel.com/one-rep-max-calculator
    Says 81% RM is 8 reps. If an effective rep is at 80%, then theoretically there's 8 effective reps you can get out of a set greater than 8 reps. But that doesn't make sense, either the chart or 80% is a rough estimation or it doesn't take into account people's fiber make-up. What was that one study, if you are fast twitch dominant then you can get 8 reps at 80% other wise it's going to be closer to 5?

    I'm just overthinking for the hell of it at this point, all I know is push the sets close or to failure.
    Well i do know that the fast to slow twitch ratio is fixed at birth.

    I thought that a 5 rep max is was 86%, and a 3 rep max was 92-93%. Basically adding 4 reps to a max, is about 10%, from 3-15 reps. After that you need to add a bit more reps for 10%.

    As far as my 80% remark, that was based on 5 rep programs. 4 out of 5 reps are effective at 80%, with 1 RIR. If you think about it, the first set you might have 3 RIR, and by the 3rd or 4th set you would have zero RIR.

    Going much below 60%, and you start getting into the aerobic zone, that does not build muscle. You are not going to build much muscle doing 100-1000 jumping jacks till you pass out. Your legs might be jello by then, but its not muscle fatigue.

    And there are still many schools of thought on effective reps. Some say effective reps are only the ones 5 reps or less from failure. While others think effective reps are any reps above a certain percentage of your 1rm.

    I mean if you think about it, a popular intermediate pattern is multiple multiple sets of sub maximal effort. Doing 4-10 sets of 4-5 reps using your 8-10 rep max for example. I call that short repping or short setting.
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    Some people make lifting very complicated. Just lift some goddamn weight and increase either the weight or reps overtime instead of looking to lift 82.698 percent of your 1rpm while leaving exactly 4.1368 reps in the tank
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    Originally Posted by safcpaul View Post
    Some people make lifting very complicated. Just lift some goddamn weight and increase either the weight or reps overtime instead of looking to lift 82.698 percent of your 1rpm while leaving exactly 4.1368 reps in the tank
    Hey I'm just doped up on pre workout right now lol, got nothing better to do
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    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.str...tive-reps/amp/

    Effective reps theory is another big leap given the data we actually have. Beardsley et Al tried too hard to fill in the blanks.. Another over contrived theory goin beyond the information we have.

    Especially as a LOT of other data shows that's even the early reps in a set produce hypertrophy.

    And let's not start with the early reps for strength being much better due to higher force production with less velocity loss.

    Hence we talk about 3-30@6-10 all being very similar in regards to growth and all being classed as "hard sets"

    https://www.strongerbyscience.com/th...aining-volume/

    Has a LOT more support and anecdote from people that actually train and coach.
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.str...tive-reps/amp/

    Effective reps theory is another big leap given the data we actually have. Beardsley et Al tried too hard to fill in the blanks..

    Especially as a LOT of other data shows that's even the early reps in a set produce hypertrophy.

    And let's not start with the early reps for strength being much better due to higher force production with less velocity loss.

    Hence we talk about 3-30@6-10 all being very similar in regards to growth and all being classed as "hard sets"

    https://www.strongerbyscience.com/th...aining-volume/

    Has a LOT more support and anecdote from people that actually train and coach.
    Right, it can't be black and white like "The moment you hit the last 5 reps, you all of a sudden stimulate growth." It has to be a spectrum. Even though earlier reps produce growth, the effect is so small that it's not even worth tracking so instead there is a sharp rise in growth as you get to the last 5.

    I'd say velocity loss is at least indicative of high fiber recruitment and using heavy loads already mimics the velocity loss in higher rep sets.

    Bottom line is that no matter which way you cut it, there is NO escape from having to present a challenging stimulus for muscle growth which is probably why I don't watch Jeff Nippard as much anymore lol
    Last edited by Animal2692; 01-29-2021 at 11:48 AM.
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    To answer the post title.

    Yes, diminished returns going closer to failure, with potential small gains, with hugely inflated recovery costs. That limit overall volume/workload and stimulus

    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Right, it can't be black and white like "The moment you hit the last 5 reps, you all of a sudden stimulate growth." It has to be a spectrum. Even though earlier reps produce growth, the effect is so small that it's not even worth tracking so instead there is a sharp rise in growth as you get to the last 5.

    I'd say velocity loss is at least indicative of high fiber recruitment and using heavy loads already mimics the velocity loss in higher rep sets.

    Bottom line is that no matter which way you cut it, there is NO escape from having to present a challenging stimulus for muscle growth.
    Certainly missing quite a lot of the nuance for the velocity loss data there.

    https://myojournal.com/rethinking-pr...trength-gains/

    And again for growth... "hard sets" are as conclusive as we can be right now…anything past that is a massive leap or the are selling you something

    3-30@6-10 being the current agreed upon range for most efficient gains. (insignificantly different given much data) and that going past 2rir is a lot worse of a deal. The trade off for potential 0.x% gains vs recovery demands that go up hugely.

    Side note. You can grow muscle cycling at medium effort.
    So you don't need to go in hard with an overly challenging stimulus.
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Right, it can't be black and white like "The moment you hit the last 5 reps, you all of a sudden stimulate growth." It has to be a spectrum. Even though earlier reps produce growth, the effect is so small that it's not even worth tracking so instead there is a sharp rise in growth as you get to the last 5.
    I believe it's more of a rainbow. Just do sets of 13-17 but skip the first 5 reps of each set.
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    I don't think the data even supports it being a 'sharp increase' in growth stimulus in the last 5 reps.


    Training for Size is so much less complicated than everyone makes it.

    Do numerous relatively difficult sets within your predetermined protocols. And add weight when your adaptations allow you to.
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    I regularly do sets on compounds and sometimes isolations where I have 0-1 reps in reserve and like the results in terms of improving my strength, and also improving the weight and reps I can do on higher rep hypertrophy sets. I find as I increase my 1 rep set maxes, it in turn aids in me being able to increase the weight and reps I am doing my hypertrophy sets with. I set it up using a pyramid rep scheme.

    So I would argue that the results are going to vary from person to person, and that it's something you have to figure out by evaluating how you respond to certain things. Obviously recovery and performance isn't necessarily the same for everyone right? So do what works.
    - Your mindset influences your outcome. It's time to take out phrases like "I can't" or "I don't have time" and replace them with phrases like "I will make the time" and "I will keep working at it until I find a way that works." Success starts with the right mindset and believing in yourself and your dreams.
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    I believe it's more of a rainbow. Just do sets of 13-17 but skip the first 5 reps of each set.
    Brilliant. Why the hell isn't this stickied.
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    WOATbrah of peace :) sooby's Avatar
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    keep in mind that a lot of this is just theory, just a way of explaining of explaining certain phenomena and results and framing it in a way that seems to be the most logical.

    there are costs to going to failure (0 RIR) and the costs outweigh any benefits. There are studies that show growth is mostly the same, even higher perhaps when you don't go to failure. But when you go to failure, you also can't do as much volume. Personally if I took a set of squats to actual failure my whole workout would probably suffer, it gets worse the stronger you get due to the absolute load you are subjecting onto your body and the amount of force you need to produce in order to complete a rep.

    you probably couldn't go wrong with keeping your RPE at 6-8 for compound movements and keeping it at 7-9 for more isolation work. With some sets to RPE 10 (I would never push a compound movement to RPE 10 unless I just felt masochistic at the end of a training cycle and want to go for a PR for the ego).
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    I don't think the data even supports it being a 'sharp increase' in growth stimulus in the last 5 reps.


    Training for Size is so much less complicated than everyone makes it.

    Do numerous relatively difficult sets within your predetermined protocols. And add weight when your adaptations allow you to.
    The biggest load of hogwash I've ever heard was fascia training. Basically the fascia is holding back your muscles from growing and must be constantly stretched out with pump work.
    "Why aren't you growing?"
    "My fascia bro"
    Last edited by Animal2692; 01-29-2021 at 12:32 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Brilliant. Why the hell isn't this stickied.
    Looking forward to your next post where you're saying something entirely different because you happened to read something else online that day.
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    Looking forward to your next post where you're saying something entirely different because you happened to read something else online that day.
    I just read something that in fact, there are no muscles to be worked out. Studies have shown that those are just concepts, no one has ever actually found a "muscle".
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Well i do know that the fast to slow twitch ratio is fixed at birth.

    I thought that a 5 rep max is was 86%, and a 3 rep max was 92-93%. Basically adding 4 reps to a max, is about 10%, from 3-15 reps. After that you need to add a bit more reps for 10%.

    As far as my 80% remark, that was based on 5 rep programs. 4 out of 5 reps are effective at 80%, with 1 RIR. If you think about it, the first set you might have 3 RIR, and by the 3rd or 4th set you would have zero RIR.

    Going much below 60%, and you start getting into the aerobic zone, that does not build muscle. You are not going to build much muscle doing 100-1000 jumping jacks till you pass out. Your legs might be jello by then, but its not muscle fatigue.

    And there are still many schools of thought on effective reps. Some say effective reps are only the ones 5 reps or less from failure. While others think effective reps are any reps above a certain percentage of your 1rm.

    I mean if you think about it, a popular intermediate pattern is multiple multiple sets of sub maximal effort. Doing 4-10 sets of 4-5 reps using your 8-10 rep max for example. I call that short repping or short setting.
    I think effective reps is both 5 reps or less from failure or 80% RM or more.

    I have no idea about fast to slow twitch being fixed at birth though. Some say yes, others no.
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    I disagree with the concept that if you go to failure you can't do as much volume. Again, this entirely depends on a person's recovery and how they progress. Maybe for some people that is true, but I wouldn't say it's true for everyone. I think you can overthink things to a point of stalling yourself progress wise if you are setting too much at store by what research / studies say. You need to try out different training principles and actually evaluate your results to be able to formulate an accurate conclusion. If you are afraid to stray outside of what studies suggest are the most effective training methods you could actually be hindering your own progress by not allowing yourself to experiment with different things and forumulating your own training style.
    - Your mindset influences your outcome. It's time to take out phrases like "I can't" or "I don't have time" and replace them with phrases like "I will make the time" and "I will keep working at it until I find a way that works." Success starts with the right mindset and believing in yourself and your dreams.
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    Looking forward to your next post where you're saying something entirely different because you happened to read something else online that day.
    This is the only comment that matters in response to the op
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    Originally Posted by safcpaul View Post
    This is the only comment that matters in response to the op
    Hey there's still a ton of value in this thread for anyone reading lol, that much I'm glad about
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    Originally Posted by health4life24 View Post
    I disagree with the concept that if you go to failure you can't do as much volume. Again, this entirely depends on a person's recovery and how they progress. Maybe for some people that is true, but I wouldn't say it's true for everyone. I think you can overthink things to a point of stalling yourself progress wise if you are setting too much at store by what research / studies say. You need to try out different training principles and actually evaluate your results to be able to formulate an accurate conclusion. If you are afraid to stray outside of what studies suggest are the most effective training methods you could actually be hindering your own progress by not allowing yourself to experiment with different things and forumulating your own training style.
    100% if it looks stupid and it's working, it ain't stupid.
    Last edited by Animal2692; 01-29-2021 at 02:39 PM.
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