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  1. #1
    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Simple Yet Profound

    The best quote of MLK that I heard today wasn’t complicated. To me it condensed a solution to some issues we are experiencing today. But in contrast, the division and the intentional misleading of the public by the MSM (all of them) and with some political groups that have made lobbying a lucrative business as opposed to being true to their cause, it may just be an impossible task - what the quote attempts to hopefully project.

    It is simple and profound, but the monetization of the MSM and politics has fukked our country.

    The quote: Alveda King: My Uncle Taught That People 'Must Learn to Live Together.’

    Is the essence of the quote impossible to achieve?

    Give your opinion, but drop your dedication to any political side and give us your opinion. I already know some people just want war. But, no matter what, a war would take decades to recover from. So, just fighting is not a logical solution.

    Discuss or this thread is dead. Either way I’ll live with it.
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    Registered User Payton1221's Avatar
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    The documentary The Social Dilemma was a bit of an eye opener for me. We think social media is bringing us closer, but in many (most?) ways, it's creating a bigger divide. From wiki:

    It explores the rise of social media and the damage it has caused to society, focusing on its exploitation and manipulation of its users for financial gain through surveillance capitalism and data mining. It goes into depth on how social media's design is meant to nurture an addiction, manipulate its use in politics, and spread conspiracy theories such as Pizzagate and aiding groups such as flat-earthers. The film also examines the serious issue of social media's effect on mental health (including the mental health of adolescents and rising teen suicide rates).

    My wife, after a little introspection, deleted her Facebook account after watching the documentary.

    I think too many of us surround ourselves with primarily, if not exclusively, like-minded individuals which can cause an us/them mentality. Professor Scott Galloway claims that social media has diminished empathy, and the trend to work and shop from home, which has become possible for more people than ever thanks to Covid, has further decreased empathy.

    Can we learn to live together? Sure, but I think that we need to turn the tide that's currently causing greater polarization, in my opinion.
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  3. #3
    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Payton, good logic. Of course the influence of social media is equal if not more significant in influencing just about anyone - in addition to the MSM.

    I quit Facebook about 6 months ago and I don’t miss it. I know it has value for people who use it to keep up with friends and family. But, now, social media is too powerful and it has facilitated extremes from al political sides. The Wild West.
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    Social media definitely adds to the divide, but I wonder if the bigger factor is actually that Democrats and Republicans actually physically live in different realities. Living in a city today compared to living in a rural or suburban area has never seemed more different. And the way people vote reflects this.
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    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 7Seconds View Post
    Social media definitely adds to the divide, but I wonder if the bigger factor is actually that Democrats and Republicans actually physically live in different realities. Living in a city today compared to living in a rural or suburban area has never seemed more different. And the way people vote reflects this.
    7, exactly. Social media has flourished in the past 4 years because a lot of people get their news from these sources. To your point, yes over the past 4 or 5 years, the line in the sand between Democrats and Republicans is an ocean. The different realities you mention may be real where ideological beliefs have become an actual culture.
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    Knotty by Nature ChazWood's Avatar
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    Good topic and insight so far. I'll add my 2c

    IMHO, acquiring tolerance requires the rejection of entitlement. Entitlement can only eliminated by accepting that one is owed nothing in this world. Every man and woman must make their own way in life; or STFU and follow the leaders.

    Doesn't get much simpler than that. The challenge lies in the "accepting" part.
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  7. #7
    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ChazWood View Post
    Good topic and insight so far. I'll add my 2c

    IMHO, tolerance requires the rejection of entitlement. Entitlement can only eliminated by accepting that one is owed nothing in this world. Every man and woman must make their own way in life; or STFU and follow the leaders.

    Doesn't get much simpler than that. The challenge lies in the "accepting" part.
    Good insight, Chazzy. Even though I don’t disagree, entitlements could means rights to some. So, if a group believes it is their right for higher education forgiveness, there is another set of people who will claim that it is not a right so entitlements like higher education should not be offered.

    My point is that there is an ingrained disagreement on the differences of entitlements and rights.
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  8. #8
    Knotty by Nature ChazWood's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    Good insight, Chazzy. Even though I don’t disagree, entitlements could means rights to some. So, if a group believes it is their right for higher education forgiveness, there is another set of people who will claim that it is not a right so entitlements like higher education should not be offered.

    My point is that there is an ingrained disagreement on the differences of entitlements and rights.
    Thanks Marky and with all due respect, that's Lawyer talk. Part of the problem is that things have gotten too complicated. Why? Lawyers.

    A wise dude I once knew used to say: "if we didn't have Lawyers, we wouldn't need them".

    We've got to back to basics, Marky.

    EDIT: I hope that didn't come off as harsh. Definitely not directed at you, Marky. ummm....unless you're a Lawyer.
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    Registered User 7Seconds's Avatar
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    When the government controls much of your life, people will fight tooth and nail to make sure their side controls the government. The bigger the government gets, the more election results will seem to impact the life of your average Joe. There could be absolutely no media coverage of politics, no 24/7 bickering on social media but with a large & powerful government reaching into all avenues of everyday life, your average person would be hard-pressed not to pick a side to root for when politicians’ decisions could actually tangibly control the amount of harm or happiness they experience.

    A lot of people want to use government for social control. That really doesn't mix well when you have very different groups of people who just happen to fall under the same system. Too many people think of the government as some sort of HOA just waiting to enforce their will rather than a powerful, dangerous, yet necessary entity that should be limited yet provide the service and common infrastructure that can't realistically be done privately.

    /libertarian rant
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  10. #10
    Knotty by Nature ChazWood's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 7Seconds View Post
    When the government controls much of your life, people will fight tooth and nail to make sure their side controls the government. The bigger the government gets, the more election results will seem to impact the life of your average Joe. There could be absolutely no media coverage of politics, no 24/7 bickering on social media but with a large & powerful government reaching into all avenues of everyday life, your average person would be hard-pressed not to pick a side to root for when politicians’ decisions could actually tangibly control the amount of harm or happiness they experience.

    A lot of people want to use government for social control. That really doesn't mix well when you have very different groups of people who just happen to fall under the same system. Too many people think of the government as some sort of HOA just waiting to enforce their will rather than a powerful, dangerous, yet necessary entity that should be limited yet provide the service and common infrastructure that can't realistically be done privately.

    /libertarian rant
    Solid.

    Question: How is the government controlling my life? (not trolling. Serious)
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  11. #11
    Nihilist Karl_Hungus's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post

    It is simple and profound, but the monetization of the MSM and politics has fukked our country.

    The quote: Alveda King: My Uncle Taught That People 'Must Learn to Live Together.’

    Is the essence of the quote impossible to achieve?
    Not impossible, but very unlikely. Politics didn't cause our current situation -- politicians simply feed on conflict that already exists. We don't have a common sense of shared history and values, but rather a set of subcultures that actively work against one another, and share a common view that advancement of one's own group must come at the expense of another. Indiscriminate immigration policies are only going to make the problem worse and add more fuel to the identity politics fire. So, no, I don't believe it is going to get better. I believe it will continue to worsen over time.
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    Knotty by Nature ChazWood's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Karl_Hungus View Post
    Not impossible, but very unlikely. Politics didn't cause our current situation -- politicians simply feed on conflict that already exists. We don't have a common sense of shared history and values, but rather a set of subcultures that actively work against one another, and share a common view that advancement of one's own group must come at the expense of another. Indiscriminate immigration policies are only going to make the problem worse and add more fuel to the identity politics fire. So, no, I don't believe it is going to get better. I believe it will continue to worsen over time.
    Bummer, dude.

    but there's always the outlier.... As long as there are people like Alex Smith (name just pooped into my head), I've got hope.

    I know that sounds hokey, but IMHO, it's not our brains that are going to get us out of this mess, it's our hearts.

    Yes, hearts.

    EDIT: and why Alex Smith? Cuz I just heard his story yesterday, and how he overcame an almost fatal injury and fought back to the top of his game. That inspires me, and I seek inspiration daily. It's like PWO for life.
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    Banned JaymzJ's Avatar
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    That quote is simple and profound. I am on board with it 100% War isn’t really a rational solution to anything IMO.
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    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ChazWood View Post
    Thanks Marky and with all due respect, that's Lawyer talk. Part of the problem is that things have gotten too complicated. Why? Lawyers.

    A wise dude I once knew used to say: "if we didn't have Lawyers, we wouldn't need them".

    We've got to back to basics, Marky.

    EDIT: I hope that didn't come off as harsh. Definitely not directed at you, Marky. ummm....unless you're a Lawyer.
    I got ya, Chazzy

    Originally Posted by 7Seconds View Post
    When the government controls much of your life, people will fight tooth and nail to make sure their side controls the government. The bigger the government gets, the more election results will seem to impact the life of your average Joe. There could be absolutely no media coverage of politics, no 24/7 bickering on social media but with a large & powerful government reaching into all avenues of everyday life, your average person would be hard-pressed not to pick a side to root for when politicians’ decisions could actually tangibly control the amount of harm or happiness they experience.

    A lot of people want to use government for social control. That really doesn't mix well when you have very different groups of people who just happen to fall under the same system. Too many people think of the government as some sort of HOA just waiting to enforce their will rather than a powerful, dangerous, yet necessary entity that should be limited yet provide the service and common infrastructure that can't realistically be done privately.

    /libertarian rant
    Good points. It may be me, but it does seem to me that more people are wanting to be controlled by the government but only admitting it as "We deserve more entitlements from the government." But, not that that represents the majority of any party. It deos get a lot of attention, though as a political football.
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    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Karl_Hungus View Post
    Not impossible, but very unlikely. Politics didn't cause our current situation -- politicians simply feed on conflict that already exists. We don't have a common sense of shared history and values, but rather a set of subcultures that actively work against one another, and share a common view that advancement of one's own group must come at the expense of another. Indiscriminate immigration policies are only going to make the problem worse and add more fuel to the identity politics fire. So, no, I don't believe it is going to get better. I believe it will continue to worsen over time.
    Straight up from Karl, as always. I totally agree. Politcians do thrive on us not unifying and always in a state of crisis and conflict. Everything is life and death. If everyone was satisfied, the other party wouldn't exist. Political theater is our new macabre mini-series that never ends.

    Originally Posted by ChazWood View Post
    Bummer, dude.

    but there's always the outlier.... As long as there are people like Alex Smith (name just pooped into my head), I've got hope.

    I know that sounds hokey, but IMHO, it's not our brains that are going to get us out of this mess, it's our hearts.

    Yes, hearts.

    EDIT: and why Alex Smith? Cuz I just heard his story yesterday, and how he overcame an almost fatal injury and fought back to the top of his game. That inspires me, and I seek inspiration daily. It's like PWO for life.
    It's good to have hope. I do hope.

    Originally Posted by JaymzJ View Post
    That quote is simple and profound. I am on board with it 100% War isn’t really a rational solution to anything IMO.
    Agreed.
    Helping one person may not change the world, but it could change the world for one person.

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    Knotty by Nature ChazWood's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    I got ya, Chazzy



    Good points. It may be me, but it does seem to me that more people are wanting to be controlled by the government but only admitting it as "We deserve more entitlements from the government." But, not that that represents the majority of any party. It deos get a lot of attention, though as a political football.
    Good point, Marky. Could also be a case where one side thinks the other somehow gets more. Or thinks they're better; or thinks the other side thinks their better. Again; entitlement.

    Consider my reply the appetizer while we wait patiently for 7 to respond.
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    There's an expression that "you can have too much of a good thing". As sources of information proliferated it became harder to verify anything and more people started believing in flat-earth, Qanon, Area51 having aliens, etc. As social media spread people are become more partisan, intolerant and antisocial. Ironic eh? Love that quote about we've got to learn to live together. Wish that would spread through social media instead of conspiracies
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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    ... The quote: "People 'Must Learn to Live Together."

    Is the essence of the quote impossible to achieve?...
    That's the wrong question. As an achievement, the entity that strives to achieve is the actual problem. The wisest saying in the world is 'know thyself'. That's the requirement.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

    It's easy to not be afraid of tigers when you're sitting in your living room watching a television program about tigers. When you're in the jungle where the tigers are, it's quite a different story.
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    Originally Posted by ChazWood View Post
    Good point, Marky. Could also be a case where one side thinks the other somehow gets more. Or thinks they're better; or thinks the other side thinks their better. Again; entitlement.

    Consider my reply the appetizer while we wait patiently for 7 to respond.
    I didn’t really mean control in an Orwellian sense of the word as much as how the government impacts our lives through taxes, laws, regulations, etc. I am certainly closer to the anarchist end of the libertarian spectrum but I am not quite there with Norwich. I do think government should provide police, military, courts, infrastructure to a certain point, perhaps some basic healthcare/education. Unfortunately neither major party these days look like they are interested in limiting the government.
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    There's an expression that "you can have too much of a good thing".
    So true. By so many metrics, we've never had it easier, yet happiness, overall, is lower and depression is higher than it has been in decades. And that comment was true even before the proliferation of Facebook and the like where everyone puts their best foot forward online leaving so many to think "why can't I have that life/spouse/kids/career/etc.
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    Thanks for all the comments guys.

    I’m trying to create my own hope without being preoccupied with all of the low-lifes in Washington. Too much infighting and perpetual vindictiveness with zero regard to us as citizens. Generations go by with no accomplishments.
    Helping one person may not change the world, but it could change the world for one person.

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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    Payton, good logic. Of course the influence of social media is equal if not more significant in influencing just about anyone - in addition to the MSM.

    I quit Facebook about 6 months ago and I don’t miss it. I know it has value for people who use it to keep up with friends and family. But, now, social media is too powerful and it has facilitated extremes from al political sides. The Wild West.
    Keeping in touch with family is easy to do with smart phones, it costs a little more to send the data but this where FB sells out on everyone who uses it. Free platforms like FB sell everyone’s data and they use it to control and influence, so just keep that in mind every time you wanna justify using these platforms.

    They are hurting our social well being, not helping.
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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    Thanks for all the comments guys.

    I’m trying to create my own hope without being preoccupied with all of the low-lifes in Washington. Too much infighting and perpetual vindictiveness with zero regard to us as citizens. Generations go by with no accomplishments.
    Great thread! In the same quote MLK went on to say that: We must learn to live together...as brothers or we will perish together as fools.

    Love you neighbor as yourself...serve one another.

    I was recently asked to lead a group in prayer. The below is snippet (I didn't write the whole prayer down) with a mixture of quotes from others and my own words that I prayed with that group...

    A Nation Divided

    Our nation is divided. We focus on our differences. Believing it was important to be left wing or right wing. We’ve forgotten that these two wings belong to the same bird.

    The debate has already been lost before it’s begun, when slander is utilized instead of truth and love.

    We return hate for hate. Only adding to a deeper darkness. Darkness cannot diminish darkness & hate returned with hate only multiplies.

    We turn to Washington for answers, but it is filled with sinners such as myself. What we need will only come from you. We, your church look to you.

    Teach us to live as brothers and sisters. May we come together with the commonality that we need you as our savior.

    May your church be that bright beacon reflecting your light. Teaching this nation to follow you. Stir our hearts. Stir the hearts of your people and may this nation follow.

    I’ve seen miracles happen. Prayers answered. Broken hearts made new. That’s what faith can do.

    Amen…
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    Originally Posted by LWW View Post
    Keeping in touch with family is easy to do with smart phones, it costs a little more to send the data but this where FB sells out on everyone who uses it. Free platforms like FB sell everyone’s data and they use it to control and influence, so just keep that in mind every time you wanna justify using these platforms.

    They are hurting our social well being, not helping.

    Social media is only as bad as we make it. If you don't have a population capable of rational critical thinking, democracy probably won't work regardless of media environment.
    As you go the way of life, you will see a great chasm. Jump. It is not as wide as you think.
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    "We focus on our differences. Believing it was important to be left wing or right wing. We’ve forgotten that these two wings belong to the same bird."
    brilliant!


    In real life i like all people and politics almost never comes up; so if you like people and are generally friendly then it is easy to "learn to live together."

    My neighborhood is mixed(all races) and folks get along well, so much of what we see hear and read are outliers as far as i am concerned.

    To me the issue is how we treat concerns of others when brought to our attention.
    sums it up a thread will start off promising and then turn into name calling..
    The easiest way to tell when an argument has no merit is when the protagonist mixes in some personal insults.
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    Originally Posted by x-trainer ben View Post
    "We focus on our differences. Believing it was important to be left wing or right wing. We’ve forgotten that these two wings belong to the same bird."
    brilliant!


    In real life i like all people and politics almost never comes up; so if you like people and are generally friendly then it is easy to "learn to live together."

    My neighborhood is mixed(all races) and folks get along well, so much of what we see hear and read are outliers as far as i am concerned.

    To me the issue is how we treat concerns of others when brought to our attention.
    I tend to believe that the radical growing divide and hostilities over political leanings is a bit blown out of proportion as well. The average citizen isn't a blue check mark activists/tv host on twitter or marching and or rioting in major cities. I think the media artificially inflates how many people are engaging in these activities in hopes of furthering their agenda and support for it. Personally, however, I think most people choose to avoid discussing and focusing on politics. I have multiple friends/associates that fall all over the political spectrum and no major conflict has ever arisen. Most people rarely interact with each other in person, face to face like they would/do on Twitter or on CNN/Fox.

    That being said it is wrong to wave a dismissive hand at all news outlets because many, if not most people (and including myself), are too intellectually lazy to consume information talking heads on the television haven't chewed for us. It is not the news media's fault that the only thing their viewers want is a broad sense of what's going on in the world around them. While the media influences society, society influences the media. It is what we created.
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    Originally Posted by 7Seconds View Post
    Social media is only as bad as we make it. If you don't have a population capable of rational critical thinking, democracy probably won't work regardless of media environment.

    Nope, social media influence is planting the seed of no longer thinking critically or rationally.
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    Originally Posted by LWW View Post
    Nope, social media influence is planting the seed of no longer thinking critically or rationally.
    Only if you let it.
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    Originally Posted by 7Seconds View Post
    Only if you let it.
    No, as corporate continues to let it, we will have no choice.

    This is why everyone should stop using it the population usage will dictate this possible future that’s taking over right now.

    And if you are smart, you should avoid taking smart phones with you as much as possible, keep them home when you go out.
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    Originally Posted by ChazWood View Post
    Question: How is the government controlling my life? (not trolling. Serious)
    Taxation and nanny laws that come with penalties for non compliance.
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