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  1. #31
    Gaintaining Mrpb's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SiloHD View Post
    really? aslong as that, wouldn't have thought it. so after the 12 months go into a cut and how long does a cut last?
    You may have misread what I said. I said as long as possible. So ideally you bulk even longer. If you bulk slow you can stay at similar body fat percentage as you are now or even lean out.

    If you happen to hit 16-17% body fat it's probably a good idea to cut.
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  2. #32
    Registered User SiloHD's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    You may have misread what I said. I said as long as possible. So ideally you bulk even longer. If you bulk slow you can stay at similar body fat percentage as you are now or even lean out.

    If you happen to hit 16-17% body fat it's probably a good idea to cut.
    I see, i think because i'm new and tried to soak too much information in at once from the likes of youtube i heard that many theories and got myself confused, watching stuff like 12 week transformations, people cutting who has never done an ab workout who has ended up with an 8 pack, how genetics play a huge part, you can build muscle even on a deficit, and also skinny fat where people were confused on whether to cut or bulk these are examples of videos i had been watching, i didn't know what to do because i didn't know my body type but by the help of this forum i now have a goal and know what path i'm on thank you
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  3. #33
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    Originally Posted by SiloHD View Post
    I see, i think because i'm new and tried to soak too much information in at once from the likes of youtube i heard that many theories and got myself confused, watching stuff like 12 week transformations, people cutting who has never done an ab workout who has ended up with an 8 pack, how genetics play a huge part, you can build muscle even on a deficit, and also skinny fat where people were confused on whether to cut or bulk these are examples of videos i had been watching, i didn't know what to do because i didn't know my body type but by the help of this forum i now have a goal and know what path i'm on thank you
    Be careful with Youtube, there's a lot of bad information out there.

    Good info on Youtube: 3DMJ, Eric Helms, Omar Isuf, Jeff Nippard, Jorn Trommelen.
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  4. #34
    Registered User SiloHD's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Be careful with Youtube, there's a lot of bad information out there.

    Good info on Youtube: 3DMJ, Eric Helms, Omar Isuf, Jeff Nippard, Jorn Trommelen.
    Found that out the hard way thats what led me to here hoping to clear up the confusion i caused myself lol.
    From now on if im stuck i will post on here for advice
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  5. #35
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    You may have misread what I said. I said as long as possible. So ideally you bulk even longer. If you bulk slow you can stay at similar body fat percentage as you are now or even lean out.

    If you happen to hit 16-17% body fat it's probably a good idea to cut.
    Why 16-17%?

    In a podcast Eric Helms was actually talking with Mike Israetel about the concept of a BF cap where muscle building slows down, and they both kind of agreed there’s no good evidence in active / training populations that you’d expect any real impact to hypertrophy.

    There’s tons of cases of strongmen etc who are well above 20% even able to pack on tons of lean tissue.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Why 16-17%?
    We've been over this a ton of times. Do we really need to do it again? Nothing has changed.

    There's physiological reasons and practical reasons. There's potentially reduced MPS, increased inflammation, reduced insulin sensitivity. You could argue 18% is a better cut off but no one knows what the exact cut off point is.

    The practical reasons are that once you're above 17% it becomes impossible almost to see how well the bulk is working and cutting back from 20% to ~12% will take a long time.

    Menno Henselmans
    https://mennohenselmans.com/inflammation-muscle-growth/

    Lyle argues 15% is the cut off point.
    https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle...n#Lean_Gaining

    In a podcast Eric Helms was actually talking with Mike Israetel about the concept of a BF cap where muscle building slows down, and they both kind of agreed there’s no good evidence in active / training populations that you’d expect any real impact to hypertrophy.
    I've heard the podcast with Helms with another guy, Mike Matthews iirs. Eric believes that it won't matter much and thinks you can go to ~20%.

    But there's no good evidence that lean bulking beyond 17% works well.

    There’s tons of cases of strongmen etc who are well above 20% even able to pack on tons of lean tissue.
    I suggest avoiding anecdotes like these. Strong men are not into lean gaining. Even if they gain 40% muscle and 60% fat they're more than happy. My advice is not aimed at strongmen.
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  7. #37
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    We've been over this a ton of times. Do we really need to do it again? Nothing has changed.

    There's physiological reasons and practical reasons. There's potentially reduced MPS, increased inflammation, reduced insulin sensitivity. You could argue 18% is a better cut off but no one knows what the exact cut off point is.

    The practical reasons are that once you're above 17% it becomes impossible almost to see how well the bulk is working and cutting back from 20% to ~12% will take a long time.

    Menno Henselmans
    https://mennohenselmans.com/inflammation-muscle-growth/

    Lyle argues 15% is the cut off point.
    https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle...n#Lean_Gaining


    I've heard the podcast with Helms with another guy, Mike Matthews iirs. Eric believes that it won't matter much and thinks you can go to ~20%.

    But there's no good evidence that lean bulking beyond 17% works well.



    I suggest avoiding anecdotes like these. Strong men are not into lean gaining. Even if they gain 40% muscle and 60% fat they're more than happy. My advice is not aimed at strongmen.
    I’ll just leave it here since you don’t seem to like talking about this stuff, at least with me (for some reason)
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  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    What does that mean tho: “lean bulking past 17% doesn’t work well”?
    IMO gaining a good bit of more muscle than fat, for example 80/20 or 70/30.

    Do you happen to have studies on confirming the issues being above 17%?
    We've been through the most relevant studies before. Perhaps use the search function. I feel little desire to repeat discussions that have already happened.

    Even after reading those studies you'll see that it's hard to pin point the exact cut off point. It's understandable that Eric can reach different conclusions as me, Lyle or Menno. I'm fine with that. If you believe it's prudent to bulk to 20% I suggest giving OP your advice. I'll stick with my advice to stop bulking around 16-17%. Given that many people underestimate their body fat % it might mean they bulk to 18-19%. Not a big problem imo.
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  9. #39
    Train hard play harder Tommy W.'s Avatar
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    When to add mass or lose fat is up to the individual. BF can be all over the place as far as accurate measuring Anyway. Look in the mirror. Do you think you need to add muscle? Then work on THAT. Do you need to lose fat? Then work on THAT. Work on the thing that is the more bothersome, the fat or lack of muscle

    Body Aesthetics are a highly personal call so it’s up to each person to decide on a direction to take in order to fulfill their expectations. Many will strive for low BF and then determine that it just isn’t worth the effort and become more realistic with their goals regarding fat loss once they get into it. It seems most guys would rather be concentrating on adding muscle anyway.
    Last edited by Tommy W.; 01-19-2021 at 09:26 AM.
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