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  1. #31
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    The leaner you get the harder its going to be and the more genetics are going to come into play, The only way to know for sure is to try it out because everybody's results will vary. I also believe from personal experience that creating a deficit from cutting calories is more detrimental on strength and your ability to make gains than keeping calories the same and creating a deficit from increased activity/cardio, the same can be said for "maintaining" recomping etc, Maintaining weight while increasing food intake and activity levels worked amazingly well for me.
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  2. #32
    Train hard play harder Tommy W.'s Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SubWooferCooker View Post
    The leaner you get the harder its going to be and the more genetics are going to come into play, The only way to know for sure is to try it out because everybody's results will vary. I also believe from personal experience that creating a deficit from cutting calories is more detrimental on strength and your ability to make gains than keeping calories the same and creating a deficit from increased activity/cardio, the same can be said for "maintaining" recomping etc, Maintaining weight while increasing food intake and activity levels worked amazingly well for me.
    Correct. Look up G Flux principle
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  3. #33
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    Originally Posted by Tommy W. View Post
    Correct. Look up G Flux principle
    That's interesting. Not sure if it's backed up with the latest scientific literature but from anecdotal evidence I can attest to that.
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  4. #34
    Train hard play harder Tommy W.'s Avatar
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    Originally Posted by xuerebx View Post
    That's interesting. Not sure if it's backed up with the latest scientific literature but from anecdotal evidence I can attest to that.
    It's been out there for awhile however it just seems like common sense
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    One thing that people may be overlooking is that someone can go from 170 pounds 12% to 180 pounds while staying at 12%.

    170 lb 12% is 20.4 pounds of fat.

    180 lb 12% is 21.6 pounds of fat.

    That would be a bulk while keeping fat gains very low. Plenty of studies have shown that that rate of muscle to fat gain is possible. You just have to be patient and know what you're doing with tracking diet and weight changes.

    Now some people will claim that you can gain muscle faster by gaining more fat, but this point makes no sense. I don't know of any study that backs that up. Some people will now bring in the sumo wrestler anecdotes but gaining LBM and gaining muscle tissue aren't the same thing.
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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    One thing that people may be overlooking is that someone can go from 170 pounds 12% to 180 pounds while staying at 12%.

    170 lb 12% is 20.4 pounds of fat.

    180 lb 12% is 21.6 pounds of fat.

    That would be a bulk while keeping fat gains very low. Plenty of studies have shown that that rate of muscle to fat gain is possible. You just have to be patient and know what you're doing with tracking diet and weight changes.

    Now some people will claim that you can gain muscle faster by gaining more fat, but this point makes no sense. I don't know of any study that backs that up. Some people will now bring in the sumo wrestler anecdotes but gaining LBM and gaining muscle tissue aren't the same thing.
    I guess it might depend on the individual, but do you know how much of daily caloric surplus would be ideal for this approach?
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    Originally Posted by astrocoyote View Post
    I guess it might depend on the individual, but do you know how much of daily caloric surplus would be ideal for this approach?
    No that's impossible to tell. Instead of focussing on the amount of calories one would need to focus on actual weight change. This should ideally be measured with a 7 day moving average (also known as rolling average, not weekly average) and then adjust calories accordingly.

    The ideal rate of weight gain for early intermediates/intermediates may be about 0.2% of body weight per week, as shown in this study: https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...9122713&page=1
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  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    No that's impossible to tell. Instead of focussing on the amount of calories one would need to focus on actual weight change. This should ideally be measured with a 7 day moving average (also known as rolling average, not weekly average) and then adjust calories accordingly.

    The ideal rate of weight gain for early intermediates/intermediates may be about 0.2% of body weight per week, as shown in this study: https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...9122713&page=1
    Great thanks, that's actually exactly what I meant to ask, the optimal weight gain.

    Lately I'm experimenting with this, as working from home/COVID allows me to track every single meal and control my weight better than ever.
    It seems that this number you quoted, 0.2% of body weight gives ~0.1ish kg/week or ~0.5Kg/month for me. And I've actually noticed that when monthly weight gain rises to or exceeds 1kg, I put on more fat.
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  9. #39
    Train hard play harder Tommy W.'s Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    One thing that people may be overlooking is that someone can go from 170 pounds 12% to 180 pounds while staying at 12%.

    170 lb 12% is 20.4 pounds of fat.

    180 lb 12% is 21.6 pounds of fat.

    That would be a bulk while keeping fat gains very low. Plenty of studies have shown that that rate of muscle to fat gain is possible. You just have to be patient and know what you're doing with tracking diet and weight changes.

    Now some people will claim that you can gain muscle faster by gaining more fat, but this point makes no sense. I don't know of any study that backs that up. Some people will now bring in the sumo wrestler anecdotes but gaining LBM and gaining muscle tissue aren't the same thing.
    correct. It takes awhile to learn your body, have your counting and tracking down to where you can actually stay in that very small window of just enough of a surplus to add Just muscle or at least a very small amount of fat. Guys toward the upper limits of their genetic potential especially. A lot of fat gets added when someone doesn’t want to count accurately or their training is sub par or a combo of both.
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  10. #40
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Tommy W. View Post
    correct. It takes awhile to learn your body, have your counting and tracking down to where you can actually stay in that very small window of just enough of a surplus to add Just muscle or at least a very small amount of fat. Guys toward the upper limits of their genetic potential especially. A lot of fat gets added when someone doesn’t want to count accurately or their training is sub par or a combo of both.
    I've only found this to be the case when people venture into take-out meals or foods that are almost impossible to estimate.

    Personally, if I stick to common foods, it's easy to stay lean while gaining without getting fat.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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  11. #41
    Train hard play harder Tommy W.'s Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    I've only found this to be the case when people venture into take-out meals or foods that are almost impossible to estimate.

    Personally, if I stick to common foods, it's easy to stay lean while gaining without getting fat.
    correct. If your diet consists of the same things in the same amounts daily then counting becomes almost a waste of time however most people don’t live like that. Staying lean is one thing however staying that same leanness and adding muscle is where it gets tricky
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  12. #42
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    I've still managed to reach my weekly bodyweight loss target with 2 restaurant meals per week. I try to choose wisely of course, and put in rough estimates in MFP.
    "Get up, and don't ever give up".
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  13. #43
    Train hard play harder Tommy W.'s Avatar
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    Originally Posted by xuerebx View Post
    I've still managed to reach my weekly bodyweight loss target with 2 restaurant meals per week. I try to choose wisely of course, and put in rough estimates in MFP.
    fatloss is all about weekly calories. You can eat out 7 nights a week if the calories overall keep you in a deficit.
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  14. #44
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    Originally Posted by Tommy W. View Post
    fatloss is all about weekly calories. You can eat out 7 nights a week if the calories overall keep you in a deficit.
    Yes of course, it's just difficult to track what you're eating from restaurants, so you need to be more vigilant.
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    Train hard play harder Tommy W.'s Avatar
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    Originally Posted by xuerebx View Post
    Yes of course, it's just difficult to track what you're eating from restaurants, so you need to be more vigilant.
    when I go to a restaurant I mentally calculate it then double it for good measure seems to work.....
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    Haha sounds about right! I measure my olive oil to the gram, and a chef probably pours bucket loads when cooking!
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    Originally Posted by Tommy W. View Post
    Be aware that losing some fat will uncover existing muscle giving the appearance of more muscle. In a large percentage of people that think they’re recomping they’re just uncovering what is already there. By maintaining muscle and losing fat you are changing body composition for the better.

    And then you have people in that situation that have laid off of training for a bit and start again and lifts start going up and thinking it’s adding muscle when it’s actually CNS adaption.
    Good point, and definitely could be the case of some misunderstanding/confusion especially for beginners. I've been doing this for a while so I can tell the difference, and there is definitely muscle being added and fat being lost at the same time - not just appearance but numbers (weight) support this.
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    Originally Posted by 3maj View Post
    Good point, and definitely could be the case of some misunderstanding/confusion especially for beginners. I've been doing this for a while so I can tell the difference, and there is definitely muscle being added and fat being lost at the same time - not just appearance but numbers (weight) support this.
    Ive found the best way to know is if your waist measurement is going down and the measurement across your chest and lats is getting bigger. Or another measure point is around the shoulders as shoulders tend to not carry a lot of fat
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    Originally Posted by Tommy W. View Post
    Be aware that losing some fat will uncover existing muscle giving the appearance of more muscle. In a large percentage of people that think they’re recomping they’re just uncovering what is already there.
    Except that we have dozens of studies showing that people actually gain LBM while losing fat, and this is measured with good scientific methods instead of just looking in the mirror.

    But why would we take studies serious if we have anecdotes....

    And then you have people in that situation that have laid off of training for a bit and start again and lifts start going up and thinking it’s adding muscle when it’s actually CNS adaption.
    Easy to debunk this myth. Look at these guys who returned from a lay off. They gained 2.6 pounds of LBM while losing 10.6 pounds of body fat on average in just 4 weeks of training, measured with some of the best practices available. So it's easy to conclude that their gains were not just CNS adaptation.

    https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/103/3/738/4564609

    All the scientists that run the studies like Stu Phillips, Brad Schoenfeld, Luc Van Loon are telling us that they often see recomp happening also in trained individuals.

    Don't you think it's time to consider that what you have believed for so many years may actually not be true?

    In b4 'well these are just studies, it won't work in real life...'
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Except that we have dozens of studies showing that people actually gain LBM while losing fat, and this is measured with good scientific methods instead of just looking in the mirror.

    But why would we take studies serious if we have anecdotes....



    Easy to debunk this myth. Look at these guys who returned from a lay off. They gained 2.6 pounds of LBM while losing 10.6 pounds of body fat on average in just 4 weeks of training, measured with some of the best practices available. So it's easy to conclude that their gains were not just CNS adaptation.

    https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/103/3/738/4564609

    All the scientists that run the studies like Stu Phillips, Brad Schoenfeld, Luc Van Loon are telling us that they often see recomp happening also in trained individuals.

    Don't you think it's time to consider that what you have believed for so many years may actually not be true?

    In b4 'well these are just studies, it won't work in real life...'
    I believe there is room for both of these ideologies. The general population doesn’t have a team of scientists to determine if their recomp is working or not so they need to have more basic ways to gauge whether their recomp attempts are working or not.
    Last edited by Tommy W.; 01-18-2021 at 08:13 AM.
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