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  1. #61
    Registered User davik's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by numberguy12 View Post
    Why are you not responding to this point? None of this is even that meaningful, since we wouldnt be talking about a miracle performing Jesus anyway. davik is not responding to this for whatever reason.

    You keep linking videos of Bart Ehrman (who, it is noted, is a NT scholar and professor of religious studies at UNC- fitting right in there with what I was saying up-thread)- again, this doesnt take some kind of specialized technical knowledge, anyone can read up on the evidence/lack of evidence and draw conclusions. There is no definite answer here, it could go either way, and as mentioned it is not significant even if a preacher was walking around back then in the middle east- the question is far removed from a miracle-performing son of God.

    Your analogy of Alexander the Great is not a good one for various reasons. For one, the situation is not symmetrical in the slightest. Alexander the Great was king of a large region of the ancient world (Macedon), was involved in various battles and conquests; his biography is vast, and associated with numerous specific events. Jesus, on the other hand (and we are talking about the "historical" Jesus argued for by scholars, not the gospel depiction), is associated with what, maybe 2 local items? Those 2 being associated with John the Baptist and crucified under Pontius Pilate, attested to only late (possibly interpolation). Various ancient historians wrote detailed treatments on Alexander the Great in conventional historical prose (contrast to the isolated passage about Jesus in Josephus), and there are contemporary works that are now lost. Lmao sorry not a symmetrical situation in the slightest.

    It turns out there are various contemporary mentions/inscriptions of Alexander the Great from Babylonia, Greece, and Egypt, unlike the case with Jesus. There is also physical evidence, such as contemporary and near-contemporary coinage with his image and name. We dont see this kind of physical evidence with Jesus, only documentary-type "evidence". Sorry, bad comparison.

    But none of this means much anyway in terms of the truth of Christianity's claims, a point davik is seemingly not capable of understanding.
    your point is moving the goalposts. youre confusing jesus existing with christianity being true. thats your problem in your head, not what im claiming.

    alexander was not meant to be a comparison. it was to show that i can shift to claiming alexander didnt exist and i can use your exact arguments against you. like i said before, you cant believe anyone before flash photography existed with your logic. you have zero idea what you are talking about and the experts are saying jesus existed. your personal feelings as a neckbeard atheist is the only issue here.
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  2. #62
    Registered User numberguy12's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by davik View Post
    your point is moving the goalposts. youre confusing jesus existing with christianity being true. thats your problem in your head, not what im claiming.

    alexander was not meant to be a comparison. it was to show that i can shift to claiming alexander didnt exist and i can use your exact arguments against you. like i said before, you cant believe anyone before flash photography existed with your logic. you have zero idea what you are talking about and the experts are saying jesus existed. your personal feelings as a neckbeard atheist is the only issue here.
    This is a mindless post that didn’t address anything in my post, including the asymmetry of the situation between Alexander and Jesus (Alexander almost certainly existed because of the vast evidence that supports him- much more than that of the historical Jesus). I wouldn’t expect anything more in quality from a poster like davik though.

    He continues to remain oblivious to the fact none of this means much anyway, since a “historical Jesus”, removed from miracles and the divinity is just not that important to the religion’s truth (and yet strangely in the OP he thinks it’s some hugely important matter- very odd).

    Since his responses are of low quality and not even addressing my posts...on to the ignore.
    Last edited by numberguy12; 01-17-2021 at 08:55 AM.
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  3. #63
    Registered User Antoine99's Avatar
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    Simplest explanation seems to be the resurrection; Jesus was there, people were like "meh"...Then he was crucified, ok, buried in the tomb, ok...Then SOMETHING INSANE happened, and Christianity exploded all over and people started dying for Jesus, being eaten by lions, etc.
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  4. #64
    Registered User numberguy12's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Antoine99 View Post
    Simplest explanation seems to be the resurrection; Jesus was there, people were like "meh"...Then he was crucified, ok, buried in the tomb, ok...Then SOMETHING INSANE happened, and Christianity exploded all over and people started dying for Jesus, being eaten by lions, etc.
    Kind of unclear what this is saying, but I find it amusing that the simplest explanation for something would be a literal supernatural/biologically impossible event. That doesn’t seem so simple at all.

    The resurrection itself, of course, isnt backed up by evidence. It’s hard to imagine how it could even be backed by evidence.
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  5. #65
    Registered User davik's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by numberguy12 View Post
    This is a mindless post that didn’t address anything in my post, including the asymmetry of the situation between Alexander and Jesus (Alexander almost certainly existed because of the vast evidence that supports him- much more than that of the historical Jesus). I wouldn’t expect anything more in quality from a poster like davik though.

    He continues to remain oblivious to the fact none of this means much anyway, since a “historical Jesus”, removed from miracles and the divinity is just not that important to the religion’s truth (and yet strangely in the OP he thinks it’s some hugely important matter- very odd).

    Since his responses are of low quality and not even addressing my posts...on to the ignore.
    Obvious exposure of moving goalposts. Ill say in plain english - historical jesus does not mean Christianity is true. Bart ehrman is an atheist lol. Total meltdown!
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  6. #66
    #AllLivesMatter niospecv's Avatar
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    The book of Daniel did prophesy events that did come to pass hundreds of years later. Hard to argue against the accuracy of the Bible.

    All of you doubt, yet can't explain how we humans came to be. Big bang theory is hogwash. Clearly, there is a higher power.
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  7. #67
    Registered User numberguy12's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by niospecv View Post
    The book of Daniel did prophesy events that did come to pass hundreds of years later. Hard to argue against the accuracy of the Bible.

    All of you doubt, yet can't explain how we humans came to be. Big bang theory is hogwash. Clearly, there is a higher power.
    We have a fairly good idea of how humans came to be on earth actually, after billions of years of evolution.

    I don’t think people really care about what random posters on a bb forum think about Big Bang cosmology tbh, there are much better sources to consult regarding the well-evidenced model of the Big Bang.

    None of this supposed prophesy in Daniel is convincing. The Bible actually could have included some bona fide scientific “foretellings”, something the primitive writers simply could not have known...but you just don’t see it. Anything of the following sort:

    -the sun is a star
    -atoms are composed of a positively charged nucleus and oppositely charged electrons
    -there are two planets (to them, wandering lights) past Saturn, Jupiter has moons, there are volcanos on mars, etc.
    -the speed of light in vacuum is finite, is a speed no object can reach or exceed, and is about 300,000,000 m/s (in whatever their units were).
    -the hereditary material in us is contained in two strands arranged in a double helix, composed of a 4-letter code sequence.

    You just don’t see anything of this sort in the Bible. It would have been a simple matter for a god of the universe to include any of this, so that we would have a great clue that the texts were actually inspired by a god...but we don’t see it.

    Actually it is not difficult to argue against the accuracy of the Bible. Genesis is particularly problematic in terms of the scientific understanding of natural history.
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  8. #68
    Gingers are human too HannoCometh's Avatar
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    Cool

    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    Historicity of Jesus is debated. But even if there were such a person, it is impossible to turn water into wine without nuclear reactions. So tell me where Jesus built his reactors and with what understanding of physics. If you concede that he didn't only use water, he'd still need a chitload of energy.
    Jesus was a black man and we all know that black men don't exist.

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  9. #69
    Registered User fcrazy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ironmanlet View Post
    I don’t think anyone really doubts that a person named Jesus actually existed. And he may have even claimed to be the son of God.

    Things that did not happen:
    -he walked on water
    -immaculate conception
    -necromancing
    -resurrection
    -turning a small amount of food into a large amount of food with nothing
    -Jewish exodus from Egypt
    -burning bush as a form of God
    -angels
    -Bible creation story
    -world wide “great” flood
    -etc
    You don't know that
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  10. #70
    Registered User fcrazy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    Historicity of Jesus is debated. But even if there were such a person, it is impossible to turn water into wine without nuclear reactions. So tell me where Jesus built his reactors and with what understanding of physics. If you concede that he didn't only use water, he'd still need a chitload of energy.
    Stfu
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  11. #71
    #AllLivesMatter niospecv's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by numberguy12 View Post
    Actually it is not difficult to argue against the accuracy of the Bible. Genesis is particularly problematic in terms of the scientific understanding of natural history.
    Science still to this day, can't prove how we came to be. I forget what it is called, but they have some cardinal rule that they cannot break in order for something to be proven true. The only instance where they give an exemption is the big bang theory which of course it still just a theory. How convenient.

    If you say scientists have a fairly good idea of how we came to be then please, by all means, enlighten us.
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  12. #72
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    Originally Posted by niospecv View Post
    Science still to this day, can't prove how we came to be. I forget what it is called, but they have some cardinal rule that they cannot break in order for something to be proven true. The only instance where they give an exemption is the big bang theory which of course it still just a theory. How convenient.

    If you say scientists have a fairly good idea of how we came to be then please, by all means, enlighten us.
    There are different meanings of “came to be”. We don’t know the ultimate questions of existence of course*, but if we are talking about how life went from simple lifeforms on earth to present day humans, we have a fairly good idea of where humans came from and the answer lies in evolution.

    Im always amazed how much religious defenders of the Bible try to argue Big Bang cosmology (which, of course, is backed up by evidence). You’d think if anything they’d find it assuring that science says the universe had a beginning in the finite past, versus some steady-state model where the universe always existed and looked the same at any point in time (wouldn’t the latter contradict Genesis?). Maybe research more what a scientific theory in general means as well instead of fitting the “just a theory” stereotype to a T.

    *: and this includes the religious. But this doesn’t stop them from voicing their supremely confident assertions about the nature of the universe, and its origins etc.
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  13. #73
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  14. #74
    #AllLivesMatter niospecv's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by numberguy12 View Post
    There are different meanings of “came to be”. We don’t know the ultimate questions of existence of course*, but if we are talking about how life went from simple lifeforms on earth to present day humans, we have a fairly good idea of where humans came from and the answer lies in evolution.

    Im always amazed how much religious defenders of the Bible try to argue Big Bang cosmology (which, of course, is backed up by evidence). You’d think if anything they’d find it assuring that science says the universe had a beginning in the finite past, versus some steady-state model where the universe always existed and looked the same at any point in time (wouldn’t the latter contradict Genesis?). Maybe research more what a scientific theory in general means as well instead of fitting the “just a theory” stereotype to a T.

    *: and this includes the religious. But this doesn’t stop them from voicing their supremely confident assertions about the nature of the universe, and its origins etc.
    Science isn't perfect which brings me to my next statement. The human body is incredibly sophisticated. It is hard to believe some general science statement is the answer to my question. You can spin it with big words all you want, it still doesn't answer the question itself. We may never know the true answer, and that is okay.

    For me personally, God is so powerful that science cannot begin to understand Him. This is my opinion. Anyway, rep for the convo.

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  15. #75
    Registered User davik's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by numberguy12 View Post
    There are
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  16. #76
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    Originally Posted by numberguy12 View Post
    The question is what does historical Jesus even mean. If we aren’t talking about the divine being that performed miracles, then what are we talking about? Some Jewish preacher who lived circa 20 ad? Why does it matter whether this person existed so much?

    Of note, the question of the historicity of even that kind of person could still go either way. You hear a lot about “vast consensus of scholars at least think there was a historical Jesus”.....well a lot of the scholars who even bother to comment on this issue are of the biblical variety, and are employed in theology departments, teach religion at Christian and other schools, and make a living studying and teaching the NT and its context. It’s no surprise whatsoever this variety of scholar doesn’t deny a Jesus existed.

    The actual evidence? Well...nothing written by Jesus. No one contemporary writing about him. No archeological evidence. What we have is stories and mentions of him at a later time after death, and some of these stories (gospels) suspiciously attempting to match OT prophecy to a T. Ehh...again, whether a Jesus existed, which could go either way, isn’t that meaningful....the miracles of course aren’t evidenced.
    I entered this thread with one specific goal in mind. It was to find this particular poster trying to correct everyone's opinion. Dude, you must live the most miserable life ever. Dead serious. You have to be even more miserable than Wincel. No on can possibly be right but you. Ever.
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    Originally Posted by hendrixfreak70 View Post
    I entered this thread with one specific goal in mind. It was to find this particular poster trying to correct everyone's opinion. Dude, you must live the most miserable life ever. Dead serious. You have to be even more miserable than Wincel. No on can possibly be right but you. Ever.
    Attacking the poster and contributing nothing to the thread whatsoever = low quality post
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  18. #78
    yerrrrrrrr meh? AltarOfPlagues's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by numberguy12 View Post
    Attacking the poster and contributing nothing to the thread whatsoever = low quality post
    its also hyperbolic, no one could be more miserable than wincel.
    hello everyone. im coming directly to you fer ask a quick favor.
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  19. #79
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    Originally Posted by hendrixfreak70 View Post
    I entered this thread with one specific goal in mind. It was to find this particular poster trying to correct everyone's opinion. Dude, you must live the most miserable life ever. Dead serious. You have to be even more miserable than Wincel. No on can possibly be right but you. Ever.
    He's a mathematician. Perhaps it is the fact that we are usually right that bothers you.

    Numberguy is probably the person I most agree with on this forum, and you'd all learn a lot from his posts imo.
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  20. #80
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    Originally Posted by hendrixfreak70 View Post
    I entered this thread with one specific goal in mind. It was to find this particular poster trying to correct everyone's opinion. Dude, you must live the most miserable life ever. Dead serious. You have to be even more miserable than Wincel. No on can possibly be right but you. Ever.
    Wants funny is that these are the only kinds of threads i see her post in. She HATES God. But God hates her too and will get the last laugh.
    Revelation 12:12 (KJV) Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    Catholic? Read my Catholicism debunked with the holy bible thread

    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=179267571
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    Originally Posted by XcelerateNYC View Post
    Wants funny is that these are the only kinds of threads i see her post in. She HATES God. But God hates her too and will get the last laugh.
    Clearly you have missed his thousands of informative math and science related posts.
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  22. #82
    My eyes are up here. hendrixfreak70's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by numberguy12 View Post
    Attacking the poster and contributing nothing to the thread whatsoever = low quality post
    What’s the point in trying to contribute because all you’ll do is dismiss is by trying to use science in every little thing, repeating the same tired arguments over and over again? And as far as Wincel’s argument about you being right and it bothering me, that too is wrong. Y’all both can take a long walk on a short board. Neither one of you can possibly know you’re “right.” Prove me wrong in that statement.
    Romans 3:23
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    Did implies He isnt currently alive.

    Bro have you forgotten the Easter sermon?
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  24. #84
    yerrrrrrrr meh? AltarOfPlagues's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hendrixfreak70 View Post
    What’s the point in trying to contribute because all you’ll do is dismiss is by trying to use science in every little thing, repeating the same tired arguments over and over again? And as far as Wincel’s argument about you being right and it bothering me, that too is wrong. Y’all both can take a long walk on a short board. Neither one of you can possibly know you’re “right.” Prove me wrong in that statement.
    we all fall short of gods glorious standard bro.
    hello everyone. im coming directly to you fer ask a quick favor.
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