What are your thoughts regarding going to failure?

[bodyhard]

This adds very little in the way of intellectual rational info or debate, but it may be entertaining, at the very least for the background incidental/music (Yeah I know they took vitamins, I'm not getting into those debates)

Arnold didn't have great legs (he had good legs for sure but not great) and you could see he wasn't really squatting full ROM, Ed on the other hand was squatting full ROM.

[tkdnj]

That fuking form did not break. Fuk fuk! Wow

Going to the OP, I am a newbie still and was working out Ballz to the wallz RPE 10 and sloppy last few reps. I thought if I didn’t beat myself I wouldn’t get stronger /grow.

Well 2 years later I am kuch healthier and much stronger than when I started but really I could’ve had more gains.

I was loosing strength after getting to a certain point and then I would get injured - reduce the weights and start over. So I was forced to deload and resulted in spinning wheels for a while.

Till I figured out after being told over and over on this forum by some smart people like MyEgoProblem that busting Ballz is not the point. Recently I have been deloading every 6th week and I tried couple different Deload metbods that didn’t work for me. For me I have to increase intensity to 90% 1RM and do two to three reps for two sets and i come back stronger and recovered.

First couple weeks, it’s RPE 8, then RPE 8.5/9 for next couple weeks and RPE 9/9.5/10 (depending if I made a mistake judging if I was gonna get that rep or not lol) 5th week.

6th is Deload/recovery week.

So far seems to be working for me great. So I’m going to failure but only on my week before Deloads

I get tempted to start week 1 at my week 5 weights but I’ve been resetting my weights to 10RM and follow the Greskull LP /fit variant. Get 2x5 and 1xAMRAP set (stop at the RPE as mentioned above).

Don’t feel like chit anymore like was before I started taking Deloads and stopped going to failure all the time

This sounds very much like Dr. Mike Israetel's periodization routine. Have you seen improved results?

[tkdnj]

just want to say all these replies are great, and exactly why I post here even though there is much info on the net. I truly value the real world experiences of the over 35 crew in conjunction with the available research / opinions of the experts.

[TryingBB]

This sounds very much like Dr. Mike Israetel's periodization routine. Have you seen improved results?

I’m not the one anyone should take BB advice from lol cuz I’ve made every damn mistake in the book and then some. I guess I’m one of those who learns the hard way. So after trying several things for the last 2 years, this is what’s working for me apparently.

My muscles are getting bigger it feels like but I’m also high bodyfat still. I am getting stronger and feel a lot of more recovered than before.

Cliffs: yes it’s working for me. I’ve read other places different things work for different people

Edit: just did my first 3 heavy compounds and yes definitely what I’m doing now is working much better.

[LWW]

This adds very little in the way of intellectual rational info or debate, but it may be entertaining, at the very least for the background incidental/music (Yeah I know they took vitamins, I'm not getting into those debates)

Eddie could've done a couple more reps here. What I'm saying is typical of how I was brought up training squats. You could've done another one (don't matter who was squatting).

His last rep only looked like his last because his coach said two more, squatting is mental. We used say squat 15, once we got 14, we'd say two more, than two more, etc. until you quit or didn't stand up.

[DustinTheHuss]

My problem with going to failure on legs is then I get a lot of muscle weakness and buckling when I try to play sports or do outside activities.

I didn't notice this when I was younger. Sigh.

[WannaBeYoooge]

I am not MR O so take my opinion with a pinch of salt.

Not needed and also if you do go to failure you up the chances of injuries so much!

Just do more reps and not till failure.

Your body will thank you for it down the line when we start to really get old.

[supramax]

Hey all - What are your thoughts regarding going to failure? (failure defined as not being able to do another rep with proper form). Of course there's lots opinions on the web (Dr. Mike Israetel says no need to because it will negatively impact your next workout so leaving 2 reps in the tank is fine, Jeff Cavaliere says it's necessary, and others say just on the last set of each exercise, etc...). What have you guys found works best, especially for the over 35 crew? Goal is hypertrophy.

That's my definition, too. If you mean sarcoplasmic hypertrophy; that's not my goal, but I'll chime in anyways. I go to failure on deadlifts, hang squats, Farmers' Walks and deadhangs, because I'm already warmed up from other exercises and I only do the single set (except I usually do a second loaded carry later in the day). Also, rotating through light weight, medium weight and heavy weight workouts is like taking a vacation from the previous workout. Improvement is slow and steady and injury free.

[eget1985]

I personally think going to failure everytime tires you a little uneccessary and it makes the training a little boring also always doing the same, it was an popular idea of mike mentzer himselv, but I don`t think he was right after all

[Prozach2]

Hey all - What are your thoughts regarding going to failure? (failure defined as not being able to do another rep with proper form). Of course there's lots opinions on the web (Dr. Mike Israetel says no need to because it will negatively impact your next workout so leaving 2 reps in the tank is fine, Jeff Cavaliere says it's necessary, and others say just on the last set of each exercise, etc...). What have you guys found works best, especially for the over 35 crew? Goal is hypertrophy.

I've always gone to failure. I just decided last week that I was going to stop doing this based on a podcastI heard with Dr. Mike. Hoping it helps me with the aches and pains I'm having in my back and shoulders. I'm pretty meticulous about charting my progress, so I'll try to post periodically and let you know how it's working for me.

[tkdnj]

I've always gone to failure. I just decided last week that I was going to stop doing this based on a podcastI heard with Dr. Mike. Hoping it helps me with the aches and pains I'm having in my back and shoulders. I'm pretty meticulous about charting my progress, so I'll try to post periodically and let you know how it's working for me.

Please keep us posted!!!

[TryingBB]

I've always gone to failure. I just decided last week that I was going to stop doing this based on a podcastI heard with Dr. Mike. Hoping it helps me with the aches and pains I'm having in my back and shoulders. I'm pretty meticulous about charting my progress, so I'll try to post periodically and let you know how it's working for me.

I stopped going to failure and started taking Deload weeks. I’ve only done this for 2 months.

I had stopped making progress as a newbie and since I’ve started doing this (the above), I can see visible shoulder and arm gains. Aches in my tendons in the feet are gone and my wrist and thumb are almost pain free.

I wish I had started doing this March/April 2019 when I stalled and stopped making progress weekly. Since then I’ve been on a stupid cycle of trying to increase weight weekly and getting injured then taking a break or reducing weights and Builduing back up.

:-/

I guess I lived and learnt - A REALLY FUKING HARD WAY.

My lifts are very poverty and I’m still a newbie - so take what I say with a grain of salt

[tkdnj]

I stopped going to failure and started taking Deload weeks. I’ve only done this for 2 months.

I had stopped making progress as a newbie and since I’ve started doing this (the above), I can see visible shoulder and arm gains. Aches in my tendons in the feet are gone and my wrist and thumb are almost pain free.

I wish I had started doing this March/April 2019 when I stalled and stopped making progress weekly. Since then I’ve been on a stupid cycle of trying to increase weight weekly and getting injured then taking a break or reducing weights and Builduing back up.

:-/

I guess I lived and learnt - A REALLY FUKING HARD WAY.

My lifts are very poverty and I’m still a newbie - so take what I say with a grain of salt

Interesting! Keep us posted on the progress. Why are you calling yourself a newbie after two plus years of training?

[LWW]

Arnold didn't have great legs (he had good legs for sure but not great) and you could see he wasn't really squatting full ROM, Ed on the other hand was squatting full ROM.

Arnold had better leg development back when Dave Draper was still a big name, I've seen pics of them squatting together and they were squatting below parallel.

Not sure what happened, I think Arnie had a leg surgery, and once he defeated the massive Sergio the pressure was on him to be more leaner and have more narrow legs? He lost one show in his career because he was too massive, (doesn't make sense) but that's BBing it matters what the current crop of judging wants, hehe.

[Domkratos]

According to Professor Seluyanov, hypertrophy sets to failure AND beyond is a must for the YOUNG competing athletes, since there's no other way to grow NEW myofibrilla.

[tkav1980]

[QUOTE=tkdnj;1628181863]For this discussion, I am defining failure as not being able to do another rep with proper form in a hypertrophy range of 7-12 reps.[/QUOTE

If you take a look at the latest data on muscle building, working near failure, 1 rep shy, seems to produce the best results in a program that spreads the work per muscle over multiple days. For example 5 sets of flat bench going 1 rep shy of failure as you describe then repeating that 4 days later.
Limiting the per work put volume allows for both muscular and cns recovery in 72 hours as long a nutrition and rest are dialed in.

The same studies show higher volume workouts done to failure have a negative roi for a few reasons. One being the wasted junk volume that isn't loading the muscle in a way to create adaptive change and impending recovery in such a way as to increase the time needed between training sessions.

Another apparently successful method is employing additional intensity methods like restpause sets which require even less volume for optimal recovery and growth.

Training to failure, like everything else is a balancing act between, intensity, volume and recovery.
Most of what I've read and employed myself suggests that it is the most effective thing to induce growth and strength increases in the shortest amount of time.

[ManwittaPlan]

If any of you have heard of pavel tsatsouline he mentioned on the joe rogan podcast against training to failure BUT he’s a kettlebell guy

[Itsallgoodman]

If any of you have heard of pavel tsatsouline he mentioned on the joe rogan podcast against training to failure BUT he’s a kettlebell guy

He’s the same guy on the same podcast who said he doesn’t really follow any kind of eating plan...he is shredded though

[OldFartTom]

He’s the same guy on the same podcast who said he doesn’t really follow any kind of eating plan...he is shredded though

Be careful with Pavel to discern when he is talking about his personal preferences, when he is advising others and when he is joking with a very deadpan/dry humour. For example he usually avoids discussing diet, but when he does it is normal and sensible, but he also jokes too (like in the podcast he describes vegetables as a "necessary evil").
I'm sure he is ultra disciplined about what he eats, he just doesn't want to talk about diet so says he has no plan.

[DayChallenger]

from MY point of view.. leaving 2 reps in the tank doesn't make sense.. I can't imagine how would I push myself, if I know I still can do it 1 or 2?
When I do to failure, I give 110% and probably 1 maybe 2 last reps are bit out of form to make sure there is literary nothing in the tank. But that's how you truly push yourself in my opinion. And of course working out like that you can't workout 3 times a Week the same muscles group or something like that of course than it wouldn't make you progress.

[charlievanriper]

from MY point of view.. leaving 2 reps in the tank doesn't make sense.. I can't imagine how would I push myself, if I know I still can do it 1 or 2?
When I do to failure, I give 110% and probably 1 maybe 2 last reps are bit out of form to make sure there is literary nothing in the tank. But that's how you truly push yourself in my opinion. And of course working out like that you can't workout 3 times a Week the same muscles group or something like that of course than it wouldn't make you progress.

Exactly I go over 100% everytime I train. I do press work 3 times a week a different angle each time to failure each time Pull and legs 2 times per week. So yes I agree with you on the first part of your post. But when you say you can't progress doing that 3 times a week please tell that to my body lol, I am gaining a new max each session I press, Even with a bad right shoulder from an injury back in 96. Last time it re flamed was after my 225x12 Bench video back in Sept (I tried for 15 reps to early) now I am working back up and chasing 300 on Bench and incline Bench.
Not doing as well on legs or back due to a sciatic nerve issue an old lower spine injury that has been limiting me and vary bad knee's but that's life, I just lift and deal with the pain. .

[charlievanriper]

Day 1a- Week 12- POA Today
Bench Program Focus- Flat Bench
Program based on a max of 285
Warmups 179x3, 200x2, 205x2, 210x1
then
75%x6=213.5x6 / 85%x3=242.5x3
90x2=256.5x2 / 95%x1=270x?, 100%=282.5x1
Then a New max attempt at 102%= 287.5



failure sets with heavy weight 3 days a week and steady strength increases lol

[charlievanriper]

With a self rehabbed bad right shoulder 13 weeks in and I'm FINNALLY BACK UP TO 300 A LB Bench Press failure sets 3 times a week
Day 3a week 13- deload - 300x1- NEW OVR 60 PR Focus Bench press



Day 3a week 13-deload - 300x1 -NEW OVR 60 PR
pressing day -
Focus Bench press
Today's POA
Warmups on Smith machine doubles 145, 195, 215, 220, 225
Then on to Bench press -
Bench Program - current 1rm 287.5
75%=215x2 / 225x1/ 85%=245x1
267x1/ 277x1 / next Today's Max out attempts ..290x1 next going for 300x?

90%=270x4 (filmed 3)
80%=240x5 or 6 (got 5)