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    re: (Originally Posted by Corbi) "The right to free travel, the right to earn a living in the field of my choosing....now if you aren't vaxxed they fire you. The right not have the government tell me what toxins I must put in my body, where I must wear amask, etc. Basic civil liberties."

    Originally Posted by mgftp View Post
    You never had those "rights" to begin with. You have to have met certain requirements for certain types of travel prior to Covid, you had to meet certain requirements for certain employment, and equivalent things to a mask mandate such a shirt and shoes mandates already existed. Your issue is with masks and vaccines related to Covid, not your rights being taken away.
    Great answer. Now, I don't have to respond to Corbi. Thanks.
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    Originally Posted by mgftp View Post

    Any thought to test antibodies first?
    No I didn’t get tested beforehand. I didn’t see anything linking antibody levels to effective immunity in that there is a real number system for determining how much of an antibody level for covid equals protection. So it’s not like if your antibody level is x or higher you do not need a booster whereas someone with a level of y absolutely needs a booster.
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    As a non American, reading with interest..
    A few years ago I teased an American that he couldn't legally visit Havana without special permission (although various Hollywood Leftist seem to do so, that's another thread) and how was that restriction constitutional? He corrected me that travel wasn't originally defined in the constitution as at the time mass restriction wouldn't have been possible and it was assumed as a right like the right to breathe etc - but it was later examined and decided that travel within and between US states was covered but international travel was not, so Cuba ban wasn't unconstitutional. The explanation he gave me seems to fit with what I read here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedo...ted_States_law.

    Anyhow, back to this thread... can setting conditions on travel within the US (for non felons or people not waiting court cases etc) or on who/where you associate, be legal within your constitution? Genuinely interested in an explanation...
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    As a non American, reading with interest..
    A few years ago I teased an American that he couldn't legally visit Havana without special permission (although various Hollywood Leftist seem to do so, that's another thread) and how was that restriction constitutional? He corrected me that travel wasn't originally defined in the constitution as at the time mass restriction wouldn't have been possible and it was assumed as a right like the right to breathe etc - but it was later examined and decided that travel within and between US states was covered but international travel was not, so Cuba ban wasn't unconstitutional. The explanation he gave me seems to fit with what I read here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedo...ted_States_law.

    Anyhow, back to this thread... can setting conditions on travel within the US (for non felons or people not waiting court cases etc) or on who/where you associate, be legal within your constitution? Genuinely interested in an explanation...
    Previous scotus rulings have upheld public health orders during a pandemic are very much constitutional and within the power of government to protect its people. Whether the current court would overturn these and on what grounds is a different question.
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    Originally Posted by 7Seconds View Post
    Previous scotus rulings have upheld public health orders during a pandemic are very much constitutional and within the power of government to protect its people. Whether the current court would overturn these and on what grounds is a different question.
    Has SCOTUS overturned any Public Health orders as well? It is probably a more correct statement to say "Previous scotus rulings have upheld some public health orders during a pandemic and that in those specific cases, those specific Public Health Orders were deemed constitutional and within the power of government to protect its people."
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    Maybe I'm a foolish optimist....
    But for once I'm feeling more upbeat about this Covid thing, feels to me like this is the beginning of the end, like we already turned the corner and running the last 100m

    We have vaccination programs in the Western world (not so much in poorer nations, there's another thread worth of debate) that offers pretty good benefits against the original strain and some benefit against many variants which are a public health menace especially for the vulnerable and unlucky.

    The latest variant Omicron seems to be following the general trend for historical pandemics, to gradually become more infectious, break through previous strain immunities and to be milder. So it seems to be normalising towards eventually becoming equivalent to flu, not that flu is a good thing. Check out this interview https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-59450988

    Interestingly, I do know a couple of people, including a work-colleague where the omicron symptoms description is an absolutely perfect match to their experience. I'm in an areas where Omicron is now identified spreading in community, however my speculation that it could be omicron is just speculation.

    AT LAST... can we go back to some level of normality soon? maybe for Easter, we can look back at all this
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    Originally Posted by eomrat View Post
    Has SCOTUS overturned any Public Health orders as well? It is probably a more correct statement to say "Previous scotus rulings have upheld some public health orders during a pandemic and that in those specific cases, those specific Public Health Orders were deemed constitutional and within the power of government to protect its people."

    Yes you are right, I wasn’t real specific in my answer. The legal precedent and constitutional authority questions presented by covid restrictions usually draw from these three cases

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compag...oard_of_Health

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbons_v._Ogden


    Pretty good explanation in this article: https://www.americanbar.org/news/aba...h-to-pandemic/

    Specific quote:

    The power to quarantine and take even more stringent measures in the name of public health has belonged largely to the states for nearly 200 years. In 1824, the Supreme Court drew a clear line in Gibbons v. Ogden between the state and federal governments when it came to regulating activities within and between states. In a unanimous ruling, then-Chief Justice John Marshall cited the 10th Amendment in saying that police powers are largely reserved to states for activities within their borders.

    Those police powers, he explained, include the ability to impose isolation and quarantine conditions. Marshall wrote that quarantine laws “form a portion of that immense mass of legislation which embraces everything within the territory of a state not surrendered to the general government.”
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    Originally Posted by Cass40 View Post
    Ok, what do you think about the fact it's happening everywhere in the word, not just America?

    Austria has a lockdown where unvaccinated are literally forbidden to leave their house. Do you think it's the whole world that's doing it?
    Don't you know its the entire world wanting to flip the house in 2022. Who knew they were so focused on our politics?
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    Originally Posted by mgftp View Post
    See this thread has shifted anti-vax over turkey day. Dad has given up the fight or still on vacation?

    I heard today Pfizer scrapped Delta specific boosters are the main boosters are good enough but are now considering omricon boosters, if the regular doses aren't effective enough. Dad or anyone have any thoughts? I'm up for a booster and still considering. Wish I could quickly and easily check my own antibodies.
    I haven't given up. I was away for a few days, but most of the angst recently seems political and I didn't notice a lot of posts with incorrect interpretations of data or made up stuff (I'll admit I don't click Paul's links much anymore). Since I don't believe in "G-d given rights" and I know that "Inalienable rights." can be overridden by the "needs of the many", I'd be throwing fuel on the fire if I argued when people vent about politically motivated regulations. It is tempting though since my philosophy on rights is closer to Spock's than Locke's. Spock and David Gauthier maybe but not quite to Peter Singer. A lot of people on the misc are more Locke than Kant and also think everyone who signed the Bill of rights and the constitution thought they meant one thing. We know that's not true. When 39 people read a complicated legal document and sign it, you've probably got over 40 opinions on what it says. I'm trying to stick with discussing statistics and data for a little longerer Besides, 7Seconds and Eomrat have the legal stuff covered better than I could, and 7's good on the data too.

    On boosters, I had my "annual physical yesterday". Figured I was due since I haven't gone in over 3 years. The young whippersnapper/super smart Duke resident I saw had the same take on a booster as I do. For me, 53y/o and 7 months post second shot, he didn't think there was much benefit but said I could get it if I wanted. It's likely his take is an interpretation of the department's consensus based on my age, but I did find it interesting that it wasn't encouraged even by an academic medical institution.

    On Ab titers, I'd be surprised if you couldn't find a place to get one. Pretty sure LabCorp offers them, so I'm sure they're available. That said, you got vaccinated, so I don't think we could predict your immunity based on an antibody titer and you're probably protected against a bad outcome even if your Ab levels are undetectable. Likely a waste of a few hundred dollars and getting a flu shot may be more important if you want to avoid getting sick and missing work.


    Originally Posted by 7Seconds View Post
    Got my Covid booster a couple days ago and I gotta say, the upgraded WiFi is nuts.
    7S, I'm jealous. The resident doc I saw didn't mention they'd upgraded the nanites. Might have made a different choice if I'd known.

    Also, did you guys see they skipped Nu and Xi, because this newest variant would either have been called the "New Strain", or the "Xi strain", and Xi is a common surname in China. Made me laugh even though it probably was a reasonable decision.

    So how long do you think it will be before we have an Omega strain, and is that going to be... End Game... .
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    Hey JustTheDad,
    What are your thoughts that *if* Omicron is significantly more infectious and significantly milder... as initial reports --> that this might be a natural progression to endgame of moving to a low level background nuisance, like flu etc. This is what we've all been hoping for for near 2 years now, do you think it might be starting to happen at last?
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    Hey JustTheDad,
    What are your thoughts that *if* Omicron is significantly more infectious and significantly milder... as initial reports --> that this might be a natural progression to endgame of moving to a low level background nuisance, like flu etc. This is what we've all been hoping for for near 2 years now, do you think it might be starting to happen at last?
    It's hard to say that is always the natural progression of a virus, although what I've read says it is fairly common. In the case of CoV2, don't see a lot of pressure for the other variants to simply go away unless Omicron is significantly more transmissible and promotes cross immunity. Right now, I don't know the R0 or R-effective of either strain, but I sure hope what you're describing happens.
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    Originally Posted by Jtbny View Post
    Thanks, J. I've had some people in my universe really get kicked in the teeth with this virus but no kids that I'm aware of. Real sorry about your friend and I hope she pulls through.

    I'm of the same mind when it comes to my own vax - I'll assume the risk if that means I don't infect someone else. I'm in real close quarters with many people weekly with BJJ and we have some who aren't vaxxed rolling with us. I've been personally exposed by individuals who tested positive and for some reason I have yet to come down w/it.

    My kids being younger and in no danger from what the numbers tell us have me leaning towards no vaxx for them unless the data changes. They do get their flu shot yearly though so I realize I'm being a hypocrite here but my gut tells me to wait.
    My friend is still in the hospital and has so much damage to her lungs that she's now using an inhaler. She's an avid runner and there are doubts that she'll ever have the lung capacity to run again. It's so disheartening to hear so many people say that COVID is over when it clearly is not. Sure, 99% of people aren't going to die, but there are going to be so many people with conditions that they will have for extended periods of time. Loss of taste and smell can linger for a long time, heart and lung problems, neurological issues, etc... People have the choice to do what they want, but I guess I'll just keep being a sheep!
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    Originally Posted by Jbizzlechizzle View Post
    My friend is still in the hospital and has so much damage to her lungs that she's now using an inhaler. She's an avid runner and there are doubts that she'll ever have the lung capacity to run again. It's so disheartening to hear so many people say that COVID is over when it clearly is not. Sure, 99% of people aren't going to die, but there are going to be so many people with conditions that they will have for extended periods of time. Loss of taste and smell can linger for a long time, heart and lung problems, neurological issues, etc... People have the choice to do what they want, but I guess I'll just keep being a sheep!
    Looking at our numbers, we're definitely not done with COVID, but hopefully we can get the number of bad outcomes a lot lower even while there's still a pandemic.
    Hope your friend recovers. You had a kid that lost their sense of smell, didn't you? Did that get better?
    Last edited by JustTheDad; 11-30-2021 at 12:21 PM. Reason: grammar
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    Originally Posted by JustTheDad View Post
    I haven't given up. I was away for a few days, but most of the angst recently seems political and I didn't notice a lot of posts with incorrect interpretations of data or made up stuff (I'll admit I don't click Paul's links much anymore). Since I don't believe in "G-d given rights" and I know that "Inalienable rights." can be overridden by the "needs of the many", I'd be throwing fuel on the fire if I argued when people vent about politically motivated regulations. It is tempting though since my philosophy on rights is closer to Spock's than Locke's. Spock and David Gauthier maybe but not quite to Peter Singer. A lot of people on the misc are more Locke than Kant and also think everyone who signed the Bill of rights and the constitution thought they meant one thing. We know that's not true. When 39 people read a complicated legal document and sign it, you've probably got over 40 opinions on what it says. I'm trying to stick with discussing statistics and data for a little longerer Besides, 7Seconds and Eomrat have the legal stuff covered better than I could, and 7's good on the data too.

    On boosters, I had my "annual physical yesterday". Figured I was due since I haven't gone in over 3 years. The young whippersnapper/super smart Duke resident I saw had the same take on a booster as I do. For me, 53y/o and 7 months post second shot, he didn't think there was much benefit but said I could get it if I wanted. It's likely his take is an interpretation of the department's consensus based on my age, but I did find it interesting that it wasn't encouraged even by an academic medical institution.

    On Ab titers, I'd be surprised if you couldn't find a place to get one. Pretty sure LabCorp offers them, so I'm sure they're available. That said, you got vaccinated, so I don't think we could predict your immunity based on an antibody titer and you're probably protected against a bad outcome even if your Ab levels are undetectable. Likely a waste of a few hundred dollars and getting a flu shot may be more important if you want to avoid getting sick and missing work.




    7S, I'm jealous. The resident doc I saw didn't mention they'd upgraded the nanites. Might have made a different choice if I'd known.

    Also, did you guys see they skipped Nu and Xi, because this newest variant would either have been called the "New Strain", or the "Xi strain", and Xi is a common surname in China. Made me laugh even though it probably was a reasonable decision.

    So how long do you think it will be before we have an Omega strain, and is that going to be... End Game... .
    It's okay to believe what you believe.

    It's okay to believe what I believe.

    it's not okay for you to force your beliefs on others. And it's NOT okay for me to force my beliefs on others.

    I believe in God-given / Natural rights.

    If people want to take the jab and boosters, more power to them. I wish them well. I have no problem with that.

    Problem is there are many politicians who have forgotten their oath - which is to serve the people and uphold the Constitution. So when politicians force a mandate, like many countries have done, people like me have no choice but to stand in the way.

    So there's that.

    There's also logic and reason.

    If the jab works, then why are the jabbed crew worried?

    I understand data suggests many unjabbed have died and have suffered, despite the over 99% survival rate.

    But why does the media not talk about the jab injuries and deaths? Why is big pharma protected from liabilities? Why is there censorship? Why are people not talking about the recent side effects like myocarditis among the jab crew?
    This above all..
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    Registered User x-trainer ben's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jbizzlechizzle View Post
    My friend is still in the hospital and has so much damage to her lungs that she's now using an inhaler. She's an avid runner and there are doubts that she'll ever have the lung capacity to run again. It's so disheartening to hear so many people say that COVID is over when it clearly is not. Sure, 99% of people aren't going to die, but there are going to be so many people with conditions that they will have for extended periods of time. Loss of taste and smell can linger for a long time, heart and lung problems, neurological issues, etc... People have the choice to do what they want, but I guess I'll just keep being a sheep!
    After reading many posts in this site it is obvious that people want Covid to fit neatly into boxes that they have created, and when you ask them about outliers that dont fit in the box they get angry with you.
    Most want to blame the victim for being "fat" and unhealthy as if we had some type of warning about this, but that is complete utter nonsense!
    What really gets me is when i ask WHO WILL GET WRECKED by this thing, and the reply is nothing but crickets....
    Last edited by x-trainer ben; 11-30-2021 at 04:55 PM.
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    Originally Posted by x-trainer ben View Post
    After reading many posts in this site it is obvious that people want Covid to fit neatly into boxes that they have created, and when you ask them about outliers that dont fit in the box they get angry with you.
    Most want to blame the victim for being "fat" and unhealthy as if we had some type of warning about this, but that is complete utter nonsense!
    What really gets me is when i ask WHO WILL GET WRECKED by this thing, and the reply is nnothing but crickets....
    Who will get wrekt?

    Both jab and unjabbed have been rekt.
    This above all..
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    Originally Posted by NorwichGrad View Post
    Who will get wrekt?

    Both jab and unjabbed have been rekt.
    Have you carefully examined the wrecked data ratios for the vaxxed vs. unvaxxed all around the world....it is quite telling?

    it isnt even remotely close... I am not "pro" vax...bla bla bla, individual choice..bla bla up to you to decide bla.
    There is an unspoken thing, we are iron brothers and sisters, we are to support each other and...It is our duty to support our brothers and sisters in the iron game!
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    Quarantined Finja Cass40's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by x-trainer ben View Post
    After reading many posts in this site it is obvious that people want Covid to fit neatly into boxes that they have created, and when you ask them about outliers that dont fit in the box they get angry with you.
    Most want to blame the victim for being "fat" and unhealthy as if we had some type of warning about this, but that is complete utter nonsense!
    What really gets me is when i ask WHO WILL GET WRECKED by this thing, and the reply is nnothing but crickets....
    Fattie detected!
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    Originally Posted by Cass40 View Post
    Fattie detected!
    I wish, but after reading the bodybuilder Covid horror stories, it is time to run for distance and look like a Kenyan marathoner.
    Bill Phillips, Phil Heath, Cedric McMillen and Fex Wheeler.
    There is an unspoken thing, we are iron brothers and sisters, we are to support each other and...It is our duty to support our brothers and sisters in the iron game!
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    Originally Posted by x-trainer ben View Post
    I wish, but after reading the bodybuilder Covid horror stories, it is time to run for distance and look like a Kenyan marathoner.
    Bill Phillips, Phil Heath, Cedric McMillen and Fex Wheeler.
    Lol they are so baffled why covid doesn't kill Africans at the same level. I wonder why.

    Although Samoans are fat af but only have 3 cases so there goes my theory
    Last edited by Cass40; 11-30-2021 at 03:17 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Cass40 View Post
    Lol they are so baffled why covid doesn't kill Africans at the same level. I wonder why.

    Although Samoans are fat af but only have 3 cases so there goes my theory
    Places that don’t test much don’t have covid problems. Also places without adequate food and potable water don’t have covid problems. I guess you could say covid is a first world problem. It’s all relative.
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    Originally Posted by x-trainer ben View Post
    Have you carefully examined the wrecked data ratios for the vaxxed vs. unvaxxed all around the world....it is quite telling?

    it isnt even remotely close... I am not "pro" vax...bla bla bla, individual choice..bla bla up to you to decide bla.
    Of course I have seen the data. But data from gubmint don’t mean Jack. Third party data points are more reliable.

    Have you also seen how fuvmint keep changing things? Are there enough data points to suggest long term safety of the jab.

    Have you followed the money? Moderna stock in 2018 was $23. Today it’s $350. A week ago it was only $250. Moderna is already saying they have the jab for the Omnicron variant in 2022 while gubmint is saying they know little about it.

    You don’t see the game they play, do you?

    https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/it...th-toll-number
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    Originally Posted by Plateauplower View Post
    Places that don’t test much don’t have covid problems. Also places without adequate food and potable water don’t have covid problems. I guess you could say covid is a first world problem. It’s all relative.
    Well Nigeria has 200 something million people and the US 300 something million, yet here we have almost million deaths whereas in Nigeria there's few thousand. Maybe they are not reporting to same extent but I think they'd know if they had it there as serious as here.

    But not sure. It just feels there's some other reason that some areas are spared more than others.
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    Originally Posted by NorwichGrad View Post
    Of course I have seen the data. But data from gubmint don’t mean Jack. Third party data points are more reliable.

    Have you also seen how fuvmint keep changing things? Are there enough data points to suggest long term safety of the jab.

    Have you followed the money? Moderna stock in 2018 was $23. Today it’s $350. A week ago it was only $250. Moderna is already saying they have the jab for the Omnicron variant in 2022 while gubmint is saying they know little about it.

    You don’t see the game they play, do you?

    https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/it...th-toll-number
    Yeah i see them, the games that they always have been playing.
    But you need to ask yourself 1 important question..... can your family do ok without you; this is assuming that the quickly degrading mrna( 4-6 months) vaxx is innefective and harmful?
    If it is effective...... then the reward is worth the risk.
    As a healthy dude Pfizer was a 36 hour annoyance.

    http://www.amazon.com/Disaster-Capit...45220519&psc=1

    the fact check showed that italy did not revise the numers as claimed online.

    https://factcheck.afp.com/http%253A%...m%252F9QZ8JW-1
    Last edited by x-trainer ben; 11-30-2021 at 08:49 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Cass40 View Post
    Well Nigeria has 200 something million people and the US 300 something million, yet here we have almost million deaths whereas in Nigeria there's few thousand. Maybe they are not reporting to same extent but I think they'd know if they had it there as serious as here.

    But not sure. It just feels there's some other reason that some areas are spared more than others.
    If 7,800 people die everyday on average in the US, and this number always increases as population growth does, and 1,000 people or even 1,500 are attributed to covid due to testing postive for covid sometime in the last what 30 or 60 days or whatever it is now, does that seem like a major mortality threat? Most (not all) of these deaths are in elderly who are going to die or something. The avg age of death was 76 last time I looked, which was aligned with average life expectancy in the US.

    It can be a serious disease for some, but maybe that’s just mother nature’s way of culling the heard. I just got done with a wrestling practice in a maskless crowd of 100+ kids 1-8 grade from a bunch of surrounding schools. They come there snotty, coughing etc. I am not concerned with covid personally, but fully understand it is a threat to some and many have been brainwashed into thinking the world is ending. It’s pretty sad.
    Last edited by Plateauplower; 11-30-2021 at 08:31 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Plateauplower View Post
    If 150,000 people die everyday on average in the US, and this number always increases as population growth does, and 1,000 people or even 1,500 are attributed to covid due to testing postive for covid sometime in the last what 30 or 60 days or whatever it is now, does that seem like a major mortality threat? Most (not all) of these deaths are in elderly who are going to die or something. The avg age of death was 76 last time I looked, which was aligned with average life expectancy in the US.
    150,000 people die every day in the US?
    As you go the way of life, you will see a great chasm. Jump. It is not as wide as you think.
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    re: (Originally Posted by Corbi) "The right to free travel, the right to earn a living in the field of my choosing....now if you aren't vaxxed they fire you. The right not have the government tell me what toxins I must put in my body, where I must wear amask, etc. Basic civil liberties."



    Great answer. Now, I don't have to respond to Corbi. Thanks.


    That's total BS, what you are missing is government stepping in to make laws for all companies, now it's companies with 100 or more employees. If companies really want a fight, they can probably beat this law in court, but many won't even go there. This is government bullying.

    If I don't want to wear certain clothes at work, I should be able to find a company that does not mandate a dress code. What this really is is the rights to own your own business the way you want violated. The free market is the last road to real freedom, you as the public can say "I don't like that store because that employee doesn't wear a suit, so I won't go there" It's not up to and NEVER should be up to government.
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    Originally Posted by Cass40 View Post

    But not sure. It just feels there's some other reason that some areas are spared more than others.

    There are thousands of illegal immigrants coming here everyday that aren't being vetted, there's your other reason.
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    Originally Posted by 7Seconds View Post
    150,000 people die every day in the US?
    No, meant 15,000 but that’s actually about double, either way… corrected above. In 2020 the provisional number indicated a 15% increase which is large, but that happens with diseases. I’d guess several years from now we will see much lower numbers than expected since many who are in poor health that will succumb to covid will not be statistics then.

    https://www.prb.org/usdata/indicator/deaths/chart/
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    Originally Posted by LWW View Post
    There are thousands of illegal immigrants coming here everyday that aren't being vetted, there's your other reason.
    How do you know? Can you post a link or something?
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