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  1. #4261
    Registered User JustTheDad's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mgftp View Post
    Perfectly said, as always.
    I wish, but thank you


    Originally Posted by Plateauplower View Post
    Not a strawman, the definitions are from the CDC.

    ...
    However, the primary difference is the level of coercion from the government to take the vaccine. My issue is primarily with that. It is simply wrong to coerce people to be injected with something, especially for a virus with such low lethality in normally healthy people (this isn't a biblical plague).
    Hold the phones! First, when did YOU decide to accept the CDC as an authority on English, much less immunology or anything else? Second, it doesn't say complete immunity. Third, Webster's says: :" a preparation containing usually killed or weakened microorganisms (as bacteria or viruses) that is given usually by injection to increase protection against a particular disease. vaccine. noun."

    I'll check my antique Stedman's later for fun. Can't right now because it's in my wife's office, but regardless of whose definition we accept, they all seem to agree that increasing your immunity, resistance, protection seems to make something a vaccine. But it's silly of us to discuss semantics when the second part of your post is what's really important, and we agree on stuff like that to a large degree. And, in the ultimate display of egotism, I'm going to quote myself from another thread to confirm that even though it's not 100% aligned.

    Originally Posted by JustTheDad View Post
    Without data showing a booster provides great protection against becoming an asymptomatic spreader, actually "requiring" one seems like a really silly idea. Great way to alienate more people though, so I hope it doesn't happen.
    .
    Requiring anything with risks, no matter how small those risks are, is something that needs to be evaluated very carefully. Whether or not we should be requiring a vaccine against the wild type strain when the bigger concern is the delta strain is a complicated question. In my opinion it depends on why, when, for whom, and for what privileges. Nobody goes to jail for not getting it, so really, that last question is what rights do you potentially give up if you don't want it, and I don't know what's reasonable or appropriate. (I feel like I say "I don't know" an awful lot on this thread)
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  2. #4262
    Registered User Plateauplower's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JustTheDad View Post
    I wish, but thank you




    Hold the phones! First, when did YOU decide to accept the CDC as an authority on English, much less immunology or anything else? Second, it doesn't say complete immunity. Third, Webster's says: :" a preparation containing usually killed or weakened microorganisms (as bacteria or viruses) that is given usually by injection to increase protection against a particular disease. vaccine. noun."

    I'll check my antique Stedman's later for fun. Can't right now because it's in my wife's office, but regardless of whose definition we accept, they all seem to agree that increasing your immunity, resistance, protection seems to make something a vaccine. But it's silly of us to discuss semantics when the second part of your post is what's really important, and we agree on stuff like that to a large degree. And, in the ultimate display of egotism, I'm going to quote myself from another thread to confirm that even though it's not 100% aligned.



    Requiring anything with risks, no matter how small those risks are, is something that needs to be evaluated very carefully. Whether or not we should be requiring a vaccine against the wild type strain when the bigger concern is the delta strain is a complicated question. In my opinion it depends on why, when, for whom, and for what privileges. Nobody goes to jail for not getting it, so really, that last question is what rights do you potentially give up if you don't want it, and I don't know what's reasonable or appropriate. (I feel like I say "I don't know" an awful lot on this thread)
    Believe it or not, in my early college years I was premed with a goal of working at the CDC ideally with emerging dangerous diseases (LOL glad I didn't SRS). I later decided that I would be so in debt with student loans by the time I finished that career path that I'd likely never be able to pay it off, especially making GS pay for the CDC. That said, the definition is what is posted on the CDCs website, I guess nobody gave them the memo.

    We agree on the vaccine thing, and I've seen other posts of your's indicting that. I believe that if the severity of COVID was significant enough (similar to smallpox for example which is disfiguring and a 30% +- CFR) there would not need to be coercion. Then again, maybe not as there are a lot of similarities between 1918 and 2020/21 with regard to how the public responds to a public health crisis. "I/we don't know" is a perfectly acceptable response in a situation like this and I wish the CDC/FDA would use that more rather than making definitive statements that they simply need to walk back, sometimes days later as was the case for the boosters. They would not have lost as much credibility, and people would be more willing to trust their "recommendations" rather than the constant flip flopping on "mandates" that we have seen. I 100% agree with the recommendation that people get vaccinated, but that's where it ends for me. Provide the information in an honest and straightforward way, and allow people to take precautions and make their personal medical decisions on their own.
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    Originally Posted by Plateauplower View Post
    Is that your understanding of how vaccines are intended to work? You can still become infected and spread the pathogen, but have a lower risk of dying?

    Definition of Terms

    Vaccine: A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but can also be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose.

    Immunity: Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected.

    https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm

    Has the science changed? A vaccine that does not accomplish these definitions is a failure, or at best a prophylactic treatment.
    With your PHD in this subject matter, do you find it concerning that the number of "breakthrough cases" (vaccinated people contracting the disease, asymptomatically or otherwise), provides the pathogen an opportunity to further evade the effects of the vaccine induced immunity?



    See above.
    Yes, some vaccines are intended to work that way. Many anti-toxin vaccines are anti-disease with small impacts on transmission. Natural infection doesn’t always induce sterilizing immunity either, including against sarscov2. Should we not call that immunity?

    To your other point, yes and no. I don’t have time now, but heterogeneous vaccination will slow that down. Additionally, vaccines are reducing the ability of the pathogen to generate genetic diversity, even if leaky. This is why historically drug resistance evolves much faster than vaccine evasion. But yeah with leaky vaccines that is a concern. The alternative, vaccinate the elderly and not the young and healthy, is not well thought out from an evolutionary perspective imo.

    Delta’s fitness advantage stems more from mechanisms for increased host exploitation and less due to its ability to avoid targeting by preexisting immunity.
    "Seen in the light of evolution, biology is, perhaps, intellectually the most satisfying and inspiring science. Without that light it becomes a pile of sundry facts -- some of them interesting or curious but making no meaningful picture as a whole."
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  5. #4265
    Registered Alpha mgftp's Avatar
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    So vaccine talk aside for one post, I just found out it's impossible to get a quick and easy Covid test for common folk in my area which is crazy because I believe testing is very important to stopping spread. I have some light Covid like symptoms and a heavy schedule over the next week so wanted to get a test and every testing place that doesn't need a Rx is booked out for days, like wtf? Luckily for me I work in healthcare and will reach out to a person or two today to get an inside track to a test but IMO it's completely unacceptable that a person can't get quick easy access to a Covid test if they have symptoms.
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    In search of V-Taper ectoBgone's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mgftp View Post
    So vaccine talk aside for one post, I just found out it's impossible to get a quick and easy Covid test for common folk in my area which is crazy because I believe testing is very important to stopping spread. I have some light Covid like symptoms and a heavy schedule over the next week so wanted to get a test and every testing place that doesn't need a Rx is booked out for days, like wtf? Luckily for me I work in healthcare and will reach out to a person or two today to get an inside track to a test but IMO it's completely unacceptable that a person can't get quick easy access to a Covid test if they have symptoms.
    You don't have home testing kits available at your local CVS or Walgreens? We have them here and I've heard they're fairly good, particularly if symptomatic.
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  7. #4267
    Registered Alpha mgftp's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ectoBgone View Post
    You don't have home testing kits available at your local CVS or Walgreens? We have them here and I've heard they're fairly good, particularly if symptomatic.
    Not that I know of but I'll figure out what my avenues are today. I was hoping to get access to a rapid test as I have a busy weekend that I would like to keep if I get a negative test result.

    Edit:

    Looks like that would be an option unless they are all sold out. Accuracy is questionable and I don't want to pay for something my insurance will cover if I can get in a testing site though, lol.
    Last edited by mgftp; 08-27-2021 at 05:08 AM.
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  8. #4268
    Registered User Plateauplower's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mgftp View Post
    So vaccine talk aside for one post, I just found out it's impossible to get a quick and easy Covid test for common folk in my area which is crazy because I believe testing is very important to stopping spread. I have some light Covid like symptoms and a heavy schedule over the next week so wanted to get a test and every testing place that doesn't need a Rx is booked out for days, like wtf? Luckily for me I work in healthcare and will reach out to a person or two today to get an inside track to a test but IMO it's completely unacceptable that a person can't get quick easy access to a Covid test if they have symptoms.
    Are isolating until you can be tested?
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  9. #4269
    Registered Alpha mgftp's Avatar
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    Secured a rapid test appointment early this afternoon. Being Covid positive would get me out of a meeting next week in which I have to do a big presentation. Not sure what result I want.

    Originally Posted by Plateauplower View Post
    Are isolating until you can be tested?
    Of course. You think I'm an *******?
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    Originally Posted by mgftp View Post
    Secured a rapid test appointment early this afternoon. Being Covid positive would get me out of a meeting next week in which I have to do a big presentation. Not sure what result I want.



    Of course. You think I'm an *******?

    Ouch sorry to hear this brother, fingers crossed for you
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    People who recovered from a bout of Covid-19 during one of the earlier waves of the pandemic appear to have a lower risk of contracting the delta variant than those who got two doses of the vaccine from Pfizer.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ytV9rkkUBRlM-w

    Wait. You mean natural immunity works????
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    Originally Posted by mgftp View Post
    Secured a rapid test appointment early this afternoon. Being Covid positive would get me out of a meeting next week in which I have to do a big presentation. Not sure what result I want.



    Of course. You think I'm an *******?
    Hard to say, as I'm not sure what word is censored...

    I've personally had several of my staff test positive on a rapid and negative on PCR (places were doing both simultaneously here), but that was a while ago and I believe changes were made since. Good luck, you've been vaxxed so once you get infected and achieve that superior natural immunity you'll be GTG
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    Originally Posted by CommitmentRulz View Post
    People who recovered from a bout of Covid-19 during one of the earlier waves of the pandemic appear to have a lower risk of contracting the delta variant than those who got two doses of the vaccine from Pfizer.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ytV9rkkUBRlM-w

    Wait. You mean natural immunity works????
    What about those who didn't recover. Does it work for them too?
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    Originally Posted by mgftp View Post
    Secured a rapid test appointment early this afternoon. Being Covid positive would get me out of a meeting next week in which I have to do a big presentation. Not sure what result I want.



    Of course. You think I'm an *******?
    Rapid tests are not reliable, esp if you do not have most of the symptoms. My daughter got the rapid and it came back negative. She finally took a molecular test a week later, after she was already recovering, and it came back positive.

    Do the molecular. It only takes a day.
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    Originally Posted by Jtbny View Post
    What about those who didn't recover. Does it work for them too?
    I was about to post the same. SMH

    On spread
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    Originally Posted by Jtbny View Post
    What about those who didn't recover. Does it work for them too?
    And if i didn't catch either, can i request the *Alpha strain*, the OG Covid-19, just so that i don't get *new and improved* Delta?
    Maybe i will just wait it out and try for Lambda.
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    Originally Posted by CommitmentRulz View Post
    People who recovered from a bout of Covid-19 during one of the earlier waves of the pandemic appear to have a lower risk of contracting the delta variant than those who got two doses of the vaccine from Pfizer.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ytV9rkkUBRlM-w

    Wait. You mean natural immunity works????
    Did you read the actual analysis linked in this article? Because that is not what you think it says

    Reports of waning vaccine-induced immunity against COVID-19 have begun to surface. With that, the comparable long-term protection conferred by previous infection with SARS-CoV-2 remains unclear

    Individuals who were previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 seem to gain additional protection from a subsequent single-dose vaccine regimen. Though this finding corresponds to previous reports24,25, we could not demonstrate significance in our cohort

    The advantageous protection afforded by natural immunity that this analysis demonstrates could be explained by the more extensive immune response to the SARS-CoV-2 proteins than that generated by the anti-spike protein immune activation conferred by the vaccine26,27. However, as a correlate of protection is yet to be proven1,28, including the role of B-Cell29 and T-cell immunity30,31, this remains a hypothesis


    limitations (most important IMHO)

    Our study has several limitations. First, as the Delta variant was the dominant strain in Israel during the outcome period, the decreased long-term protection of the vaccine compared to that afforded by previous infection cannot be ascertained against other strains
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    Originally Posted by Jtbny View Post
    What about those who didn't recover. Does it work for them too?
    You mean like those people in death camps set up by the Governor of NY?? (Oops, I mean nursing homes...)

    Look, I'm not minimizing the many, many deaths. They were/are ALL unfortunate.

    However, in the rush to create and establish vaccine mandates, these people with SUPERIOR immunity to the vaccinated are being ignored/minimized. When, in reality, they are LESS LIKELY to get sick and SPREAD covid than the vaccinated.
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    Originally Posted by lotusdeva View Post
    Did you read the actual analysis linked in this article? Because that is not what you think it says

    Our study has several limitations. First, as the Delta variant was the dominant strain in Israel during the outcome period, the decreased long-term protection of the vaccine compared to that afforded by previous infection cannot be ascertained against other strains
    Praraphrase: Well, we don't know if previous infection will help protect against future unknown strains...


    OK , great, so show me studies that the current vaccine will help against other (unknown) strains. Especially given that the Delta variant shows problems with vaccine coverage/effectiveness.
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    Originally Posted by CommitmentRulz View Post
    Praraphrase: Well, we don't know if previous infection will help protect against future unknown strains...


    OK , great, so show me studies that the current vaccine will help against other (unknown) strains. Especially given that the Delta variant shows problems with vaccine coverage/effectiveness.
    We will see after they look at their data after booster, which was rolled out in Israel about 4 weeks ago.
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    Covid negative. Life resumes.

    Originally Posted by pondus_levo View Post
    Rapid tests are not reliable, esp if you do not have most of the symptoms. My daughter got the rapid and it came back negative. She finally took a molecular test a week later, after she was already recovering, and it came back positive.

    Do the molecular. It only takes a day.
    From what I understand PCR tests are the most accurate and that is what I got.
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    Originally Posted by CommitmentRulz View Post

    However, in the rush to create and establish vaccine mandates, these people with SUPERIOR immunity to the vaccinated are being ignored/minimized. When, in reality, they are LESS LIKELY to get sick and SPREAD covid than the vaccinated.


    ^^^^^^ Some cold hard Facts right there.
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    Originally Posted by mgftp View Post
    Covid negative. Life resumes.



    From what I understand PCR tests are the most accurate and that is what I got.

    Good stuff!
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    Originally Posted by mtpockets View Post
    ^^^^^^ Some cold hard Facts right there.
    Ok, so from the logistics point of view - how do you establish this superiority? How are we supposed to (in the middle of global pandemic) separate these superior people and have separate mandates for them? What agency would be doing that? We can't even ask people to put their god damn masks in Walmart lol.
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    Originally Posted by mgftp View Post
    Covid negative. Life resumes.

    From what I understand PCR tests are the most accurate and that is what I got.
    We had the same about 3 weeks ago, my daughter seemed to have a cold. Tested negative, it cleared in a couple of days, so may have been allergies.
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    Originally Posted by Jtbny View Post
    What about those who didn't recover. Does it work for them too?
    Certainly more unvaccinated killed by the Rona than killed by adverse reactions to the vaccines (13k or so?). That is the cost of playing the game though . Really sucks for the people who got vaccinated and still died from COVID.

    I was just drafting an email earlier in an effort to increase compliance with our internal protocols. It's tricky to find the right tone given that half the people don't care at all and the other half are scared for their lives.

    When you are here, please wear your fuken mask and stay away from each other, no matter what you think about covid - thanks!
    Last edited by Plateauplower; 08-27-2021 at 01:37 PM.
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    Originally Posted by lotusdeva View Post
    Ok, so from the logistics point of view - how do you establish this superiority? How are we supposed to (in the middle of global pandemic) separate these superior people and have separate mandates for them? What agency would be doing that? We can't even ask people to put their god damn masks in Walmart lol.

    Show me where I said something should be done, you are going off on a tangent about the logistic and I could care less.

    I simply stated that what CommitmentRulz wrote in quote that I provided was some "Cold Hard Facts" and they were... Even Stevie Wonder can see that.


    Originally Posted by CommitmentRulz View Post

    However, in the rush to create and establish vaccine mandates, these people with SUPERIOR immunity to the vaccinated are being ignored/minimized. When, in reality, they are LESS LIKELY to get sick and SPREAD covid than the vaccinated.
    If you want to deflect from the fact that CommitmentRulz had a solid point in the quote I provided, have at it, fill your boots, I have no dog i that fight..
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    Originally Posted by mtpockets View Post
    Show me where I said something should be done, you are going off on a tangent about the logistic and I could care less.

    I simply stated that what CommitmentRulz wrote in quote that I provided was some "Cold Hard Facts" and they were... Even Stevie Wonder can see that.




    If you want to deflect from the fact that CommitmentRulz had a solid point in the quote I provided, have at it, fill your boots, I have no dog i that fight..
    My reply was to his post actually, not sure why your reply was included. My bet.
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    Originally Posted by lotusdeva View Post
    Ok, so from the logistics point of view - how do you establish this superiority? How are we supposed to (in the middle of global pandemic) separate these superior people and have separate mandates for them? What agency would be doing that? We can't even ask people to put their god damn masks in Walmart lol.
    It has nothing to do with logistics, unless we all get a vacation or something? For identification, neon green t-shirts that say "I survived COVID" would work, or crowns like the burger king guy, but we would have to control those better than they have the vaccination cards, don't want anyone frauding their post infection immunity status (although there are many millions who have had it and never even knew). That said, everything still looks pretty solid so far on the post infection immunity front, but that could always change too with a significant mutation. That will be incredibly important because breakthrough infections in vaccinated people will generate a natural immune response with a lower risk of a bad outcome.
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    Originally Posted by lotusdeva View Post
    My reply was to his post actually, not sure why your reply was included. My bet.
    ok no worries, that makes more sense now LOL...
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