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  1. #6541
    Train hard play harder Tommy W.'s Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Plateauplower View Post
    But the vaccine is clearly not working now, so why not just go the NAI route instead of pushing for more useless boosters?
    That is the next step. New narrative:
    Everyone needs to live a healthy lifestyle so we can beat this.

    What a concept....
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  2. #6542
    Registered User Plateauplower's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Tommy W. View Post
    That is the next step. New narrative:
    Everyone needs to live a healthy lifestyle so we can beat this.

    What a concept....
    That’ll never happen. The money is in the medicines. When our work test or vax mandate went into effect I was wondering if it was for “health and safety” why not mandate a healthy body composition say BMI under 30, or you have to walk 5 miles before work (on your own time). Next will probably be mandatory gender reassignment surgeries because I work in a very male dominated industry, need that diversity. Hard to attract females but we can make them! Michael the pipefitter you need to become Michelle the pipefitter within 30 days or be subject to discipline…I swear it wouldn’t surprise me at this point.
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  3. #6543
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    Originally Posted by Plateauplower View Post
    I continue to believe when you have a very specific immune target (S protein) you are missing a large part of the “puzzle” with regard to immune response and efficacy.
    To some degree, but a fairly small one if those other 28 proteins are hidden inside a sugar coated capsid and only "exposed" inside the hosts cells. In that case they're not particularly useful to the immune system. They may help us target some infected cells if a bit of those proteins wanders off to the wrong place and an active epitope gets displayed on the exterior wall of our cell.

    Going after more preserved portions of the spike protein would be an interesting idea, if we had the technology to guide your immune system to the specific epitopes. Sadly, we don't yet. I do know of at least one lab that's working on that, but I am not convinced it will be more effective. Especially with a virus that hides it's epitopes so well.

    Omicron is now affecting infants, and some who are co-infected with RSV are winding up in the ICU. I'm sure RSV+COVID isn't the only issue, but there are enough sick babies that one of the children's' hospitals a colleague trained at is having to transport babies to other hospitals if they need to be in the ICU. That's concerning.


    Editing to add:
    A lot of people are getting "natural" immunity in addition to their vaccines, which is a much safer way for them to acquire it than to avoid the vaccine. Even if the vaccine doesn't completely prevent you from getting sick, it does still mitigate the risks and severity of the illness in most people. The real way that's related to money is in less time lost from productivity.
    Last edited by JustTheDad; Yesterday at 08:02 AM.
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  4. #6544
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    Originally Posted by Reliance012 View Post
    You should’ve taken my course instead. I could’ve conveyed the principle so you actually understood it.

    It’s a life history trade off. Higher exploitation brings with it higher within host reproductive success, but curtails onward transmission prospects. When vaccines delay mortality (or reduce disease severity) but permit considerable transmission, they relax the cost of higher within host exploitation. This selects for more harmful variants. These variants can circulate successfully in vaccinated populations causing low disease severity, but will cause severe infections in the unvaccinated. Targeting a specific antigen doesn’t make a vaccine leaky. Recall that our mRNA vaccines were highly effective against infection for the wild type. It is more nuanced than that. It is about how the immune response targets the pathogen in relation to its life cycle in the host. This is why evolutionary biologists have raised concern about certain malaria vaccines that target merozoites but not the gametocytes. Or why targeting a toxin that is a by product of a pathogen’s life cycle will ultimately favor selection for higher toxin production. My PhD advisor was one of the pioneers of this entire field.

    I had a very different opinion about all this until I saw the post above. Now my opinion is changed. The snark at the beginning is all I actually read, but from that, I could tell that Reliance is a man of great intellect and very superior to whoever he is arguing with now. Whatever it is that he is going on about is now my new opinion and anyone who disagrees is just not intelligent enough to understand.
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  5. #6545
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    Originally Posted by Tommy W. View Post
    That is the next step. New narrative:
    Everyone needs to live a healthy lifestyle so we can beat this.

    What a concept....
    Didn't we know this already when we joined in 2005-6 and tried to get friends and family to join us in the pursuit of health 16 years ago?
    There is an unspoken thing, we are iron brothers and sisters, we are to support each other and...It is our duty to support our brothers and sisters in the iron game!
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  6. #6546
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    Originally Posted by eomrat View Post
    I had a very different opinion about all this until I saw the post above. Now my opinion is changed. The snark at the beginning is all I actually read, but from that, I could tell that Reliance is a man of great intellect and very superior to whoever he is arguing with now. Whatever it is that he is going on about is now my new opinion and anyone who disagrees is just not intelligent enough to understand.
    Thank you for your service in interpreting that, and also, thank you for your service if I haven't already said it seriously

    His is actually a very good post if you read past the first quoted line. No clue where he's studying, but I've found his posts on evolutionary biology and microbiology to be very good. He's described some complicated theories clearly in short posts. That's not easy to do!



    Up here in Orange county NC everything is finally melting, which is a gift since one of my pups thinks snow is meant to be eaten. Every time I let him out to pee he pees a bucket's worth then eats a bunch of snow and ice. Means he may have to go out again in 20 minutes, except sometimes we don't realize that in time.

    You guys thawed out down there in Fayetteville yet, or did you actually get to skip the snow and ice entirely?
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  7. #6547
    Train hard play harder Tommy W.'s Avatar
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    Originally Posted by x-trainer ben View Post
    Didn't we know this already when we joined in 2005-6 and tried to get friends and family to join us in the pursuit of health 16 years ago?
    Nobody can make money off of healthy people
    If you don't get what you want you didn't want it bad enough
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  8. #6548
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    Originally Posted by Tommy W. View Post
    Nobody can make money off of healthy people
    Yeah they can, supplements, natural organic foods, athletic wear and shoes, anything health and fitnesss related.
    There is an unspoken thing, we are iron brothers and sisters, we are to support each other and...It is our duty to support our brothers and sisters in the iron game!
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  9. #6549
    In search of V-Taper ectoBgone's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by eomrat View Post
    I had a very different opinion about all this until I saw the post above. Now my opinion is changed. The snark at the beginning is all I actually read, but from that, I could tell that Reliance is a man of great intellect and very superior to whoever he is arguing with now. Whatever it is that he is going on about is now my new opinion and anyone who disagrees is just not intelligent enough to understand.
    I have to say that the overall hubris of the scientific community has given me more pause and concern than anything coming out of the genuine anti-vax crowd.
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  10. #6550
    Registered User Plateauplower's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JustTheDad View Post
    To some degree, but a fairly small one if those other 28 proteins are hidden inside a sugar coated capsid and only "exposed" inside the hosts cells. In that case they're not particularly useful to the immune system. They may help us target some infected cells if a bit of those proteins wanders off to the wrong place and an active epitope gets displayed on the exterior wall of our cell.

    Going after more preserved portions of the spike protein would be an interesting idea, if we had the technology to guide your immune system to the specific epitopes. Sadly, we don't yet. I do know of at least one lab that's working on that, but I am not convinced it will be more effective. Especially with a virus that hides it's epitopes so well.

    Omicron is now affecting infants, and some who are co-infected with RSV are winding up in the ICU. I'm sure RSV+COVID isn't the only issue, but there are enough sick babies that one of the children's' hospitals a colleague trained at is having to transport babies to other hospitals if they need to be in the ICU. That's concerning.


    Editing to add:
    A lot of people are getting "natural" immunity in addition to their vaccines, which is a much safer way for them to acquire it than to avoid the vaccine. Even if the vaccine doesn't completely prevent you from getting sick, it does still mitigate the risks and severity of the illness in most people. The real way that's related to money is in less time lost from productivity.
    On spread. Sad to hear about the infants, but RSV is always a pretty significant risk in that demographic. If the case loads are high enough to transfer to other treatment centers that isn't good, but we are also looking at pretty extreme transmission right now in many parts of the country so hopefully that will taper off quickly. A girl I work with was telling me she was at talking to a friend at hospital in IL that was getting requests from as far as Iowa for transferring adult covid patients.

    I guess they still haven't worked out what sounded really cool in theory 20 years ago. It seems part of the immune response that is missing from vaccine induced immune response from the covid shots is the cells ability to signal when it is infected to signal macrophages and killer T cells to kill and gobble it all up? Not the most scientific terms, but basically I don't think it can ever be about preventing infection at the cellular level completely, but the entirety of the immune system having a coordinated response to a targeted pathogen. These vaccines being so targeted, as compared to some more historically produced types seem to have a very narrow focus, but I am not an immunologist.

    I'm not sure how to quantify how much reduction the vaccines are having on sever cases right now though. It is relatively mild for most (more so than original) and we are still seeing record numbers of hospitalizations while having record high vaccination rates... Again this is expected when positivity rates are so high, 25% in some places, which insane when you think about it. 1 in 4 people tested are testing positive. Reductions to lost productivity are also coming from revised guidance for the 5 day quarantine, and likely helping drive herd immunity as I am sure that is putting more people in circulation who are still contagious. Someone who doesn't have paid sick leave isn't going to be honest about being symptom free to RTW.
    Last edited by Plateauplower; Yesterday at 11:12 AM.
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  11. #6551
    Registered User JustTheDad's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Plateauplower View Post
    I'm not sure how to quantify how much reduction the vaccines are having on sever cases right now though. It is relatively mild for most (more so than original) and we are still seeing record numbers of hospitalizations while having record high vaccination rates... Again this is expected when positivity rates are so high, 25% in some places, which insane when you think about it. 1 in 4 people tested are testing positive. Reductions to lost productivity are also coming from revised guidance for the 5 day quarantine, and likely helping drive herd immunity as I am sure that is putting more people in circulation who are still contagious. Someone who doesn't have paid sick leave isn't going to be honest about being symptom free to RTW.
    Sucks, only having these antiquated wild type mRNA vaccines with a highly adaptable virus, doesn't it. 1 in 4 is scary given everyone seems to want to get tested. I'm mostly ignoring numbers and just watching how the incidence and mortality are tracking. At some point, we'll have herd immunity to Omicron too. That'll be nice, I hope.

    I'm going to test my 10 month old outdated antibody levels at the UNC/Virginia Tech game later. Both my kids' schools, so should be entertaining, and UNC has been playing poorly enough that VT has a chance.

    Kind of curious to see how many adults actually show up to watch.

    Edit:
    Thinking about the additional cellular immunity based on non-spike antigens, if you figure you get 90% of your benefit from the immune response to the spike protein, and then you lose 75% of that due to mutations, even if we pretend that the 10% didn't decrease at all strain to strain, you're still only left with 35% of the effect. 25 vs 35 of our original immunity level does make it 40% better, but it's still going to be a comparison of bad to piss poor at preventing clinical infections. Of course, if that safe 25% from the vaccine still prevents bad outcomes in our at risk patients, it's better than nothing.
    Last edited by JustTheDad; Yesterday at 11:45 AM.
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  12. #6552
    Registered User Plateauplower's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JustTheDad View Post
    Sucks, only having these antiquated wild type mRNA vaccines with a highly adaptable virus, doesn't it. 1 in 4 is scary given everyone seems to want to get tested. I'm mostly ignoring numbers and just watching how the incidence and mortality are tracking. At some point, we'll have herd immunity to Omicron too. That'll be nice, I hope.

    I'm going to test my 10 month old outdated antibody levels at the UNC/Virginia Tech game later. Both my kids' schools, so should be entertaining, and UNC has been playing poorly enough that VT has a chance.

    Kind of curious to see how many adults actually show up to watch.
    We already peaked here by my evaluation of the numbers trend. That said, the Omicron is still spreading like wildfire, just slowing down a little. As an example of the breadth of cases, my daughters 4th grade class was taught by the District Superintendent one day last week. When the guy who runs the entire District is sitting in for a 4th grade class there are a LOT of teachers and subs out.

    Enjoy the game! Even better if the crowds are not insane anyway.
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    Originally Posted by Tommy W. View Post
    Nobody can make money off of healthy people
    Money is in treatment, not healing.

    I'll be turning 65 soon, and still no Fauchi-Ouchie for me.

    I have zero concerns of dying OF the ShanghaiShivers.

    I suppose however if I was run-over by a driver who had it, my death would be added to the tally.

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    Originally Posted by JustTheDad View Post
    Thank you for your service in interpreting that, and also, thank you for your service if I haven't already said it seriously

    His is actually a very good post if you read past the first quoted line. No clue where he's studying, but I've found his posts on evolutionary biology and microbiology to be very good. He's described some complicated theories clearly in short posts. That's not easy to do!



    Up here in Orange county NC everything is finally melting, which is a gift since one of my pups thinks snow is meant to be eaten. Every time I let him out to pee he pees a bucket's worth then eats a bunch of snow and ice. Means he may have to go out again in 20 minutes, except sometimes we don't realize that in time.

    You guys thawed out down there in Fayetteville yet, or did you actually get to skip the snow and ice entirely?
    Weather is weird up there. The north-east part of your county can easily be 5 degrees colder than the University. And just when you think you are south of a snow line, the mountains remind you that they are there.

    I am no longer a denizen of the Fayetteville area. I am now in the Asheville/Knoxville/Chattanooga area. Or there-abouts.
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    Originally Posted by BS57 View Post
    Money is in treatment, not healing.

    I'll be turning 65 soon, and still no Fauchi-Ouchie for me.

    I have zero concerns of dying OF the ShanghaiShivers.

    I suppose however if I was run-over by a driver who had it, my death would be added to the tally.

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    Originally Posted by mtpockets View Post
    That's a strange place for your 3rd nipple...
    Winter of severe illness and death crew
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  17. #6557
    Registered User newfaceafter's Avatar
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    Exclamation Yeah!

    Is not easy to me but this help to back on normal:


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  18. #6558
    Registered User x-trainer ben's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by newfaceafter View Post
    Is not easy to me but this help to back on normal:


    *************.us/7338781

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    no one understands these posts, so please end them, kthanks.
    There is an unspoken thing, we are iron brothers and sisters, we are to support each other and...It is our duty to support our brothers and sisters in the iron game!
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  19. #6559
    In Witness Protection mtpockets's Avatar
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    Even Rocket Man got the dose

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