Struggling with muscle activation

[NewToLifting21]

Hi there. This is my first thread on this forum. Finally decided to check in.

So my question is. When i do back exercises i struggle to feel anything but a little bit of fatigue in the targeted muscles. Only been lifting for 1 month so i cant say im an expert, but i tried to read up on as much as possible. I do lat pulldowns, wide grip cable rows, rope facepulls etc. And i try to focus on retracting my scapula aswell as pulling with my "elbows" to make the back the main pulling muscle.

But even then i struggle, my biceps and forearms get more fatigued/lack of oxygen than my back.

I do also have a small kyphosis that makes retracting scapula harder.

So i wonder what could be the cause here?

Thanks for eventual answers.

[ECGordyn]

Hi there. This is my first thread on this forum. Finally decided to check in.

So my question is. When i do back exercises i struggle to feel anything but a little bit of fatigue in the targeted muscles. Only been lifting for 1 month so i cant say im an expert, but i tried to read up on as much as possible. I do lat pulldowns, wide grip cable rows, rope facepulls etc. And i try to focus on retracting my scapula aswell as pulling with my "elbows" to make the back the main pulling muscle.

But even then i struggle, my biceps and forearms get more fatigued/lack of oxygen than my back.

I do also have a small kyphosis that makes retracting scapula harder.

So i wonder what could be the cause here?

Thanks for eventual answers.

Biceps and forearms feel more fatigue because they're weaker than your back muscles (traps, lats, teres, etc.). Just give it time and they'll adapt to the new stimulus. If you're using good form, then your target muscles are getting good work.

You're doing the right movements to hit the different parts of the back, but in general barbell movements are superior to cables and machines.

[air2fakie]

You can post a form video if you want feedback, but you may not necessarily be doing anything wrong. If you have a weak back your arms may be taking on a large portion of the work, or your arms could be relatively weaker so are failing first, or your back could just be underdeveloped to the point where there's nothing to "feel". Depending on how you do your facepulls, those may not be much of a back workout to begin with.

But you can be sure your back is doing work for back exercises regardless of whether you "feel" it. If you want to take your arms a little more out of the equation, put your thumbs on top of the bar for your lat pulldowns and cable rows.

[NewToLifting21]

Thanks to both of you. Yeah i was wondering if that could be the thing. I've gradually started feeling a tiny bit more in the time i've worked out. So yeah that does make sense if its due to imbalances in my muscles.

And yeah i want to do some more barbell work when i feel like i improve the way i engage my back, i feel like if it fatigues my arms like the other exercises does i wont be able to get much out of it.

Thanks for good answers!

[BeginnerGainz]

Biceps and forearms feel more fatigue because they're weaker than your back muscles (traps, lats, teres, etc.). Just give it time and they'll adapt to the new stimulus. If you're using good form, then your target muscles are getting good work.

You're doing the right movements to hit the different parts of the back, but in general barbell movements are superior to cables and machines.

“Superior” is subjective.

From a hypertrophy perspective, cable rows beats the chit out barbell rows for back development. Hammer chest presses and dumbbells bench both beat the chit out of barbell bench presses.

Consider barbell rows, unless you’re really upright, like in a Yates style row, they have a really chitty strength curve. Easy off the floor, hard at the top. Switching from sets of 8 barbell rows at 275-295 to cable rows and chest supported rows made my back explode with half the weight. Ditto for chest presses vs bench at 255-285 (coincidentally, no matter what, bench hurts my shoulders, paused, TnG, they all hurt).

Cable lateral raises will beat OHP for middle delt hypertrophy. And many more examples. There are many ways to train, none of which is “superior” to another. Just have to train with goals in mind. OP sounds like he wants a big strong back, so why limit himself to a barbell? He should use all the tools available.

OP, something that also REALLY helped is using a thumbless grip on all pulling movements, vertical, horizontal, etc. The guys above made good points about the grip, forearms and biceps being a weak point. Keep training and it will get better in time. And I wouldn’t worry about imbalances. Just starting out, I can guarantee that you don’t know what an actual imbalance feels like.

[Casca]

I do also have a small kyphosis that makes retracting scapula harder.

Can you fully retract at lower weights? Try staying with mostly using a weight range you can actually retract and then a little heavier.

For pull ups, I start by depressing the scapula and then when close to top, I actively retract it to pull to chest. For front lever, I depress and I'm not exactly retracting in the straight arm static hold, but I had to train my retraction to be strong enough that I can hold retraction to keep shoulders neutral without really thinking about it. Besides active arching hangs, I also used row machines to train retraction, kept my arms straight and just retract. I never thought about depressing the scapula for lat pull downs or rows, but maybe try that.

Try wider grip for both rows and pull down. I don't think wide grip targets the back/lats better, I just think it somewhat takes arms out of the movement. Always pull to chest or lower/farther back if you can if you can't, then use a lower weight. I see lots of the people in my gym that do pull ups......it's an arm exercise, they don't pull up high enough where the only way to go higher is all back.

Use your cell phone and record yourself doing lat pulldowns. It's not just 'thinking' about bringing the elbows down, it's actually bringing the elbows down. The first portion of pull ups and lat pulldowns is mostly arms. The very last bit of it...where your elbows go down past 90 degrees is mostly back. Full range of motion is always better for people starting out or that "don't feel it" where they should. Once you get some experience, do what you think you should.

[ECGordyn]

“Superior” is subjective.

From a hypertrophy perspective, cable rows beats the chit out barbell rows for back development. Hammer chest presses and dumbbells bench both beat the chit out of barbell bench presses.

Consider barbell rows, unless you’re really upright, like in a Yates style row, they have a really chitty strength curve. Easy off the floor, hard at the top. Switching from sets of 8 barbell rows at 275-295 to cable rows and chest supported rows made my back explode with half the weight. Ditto for chest presses vs bench at 255-285 (coincidentally, no matter what, bench hurts my shoulders, paused, TnG, they all hurt).

Cable lateral raises will beat OHP for middle delt hypertrophy. And many more examples. There are many ways to train, none of which is “superior” to another. Just have to train with goals in mind. OP sounds like he wants a big strong back, so why limit himself to a barbell? He should use all the tools available.

OP, something that also REALLY helped is using a thumbless grip on all pulling movements, vertical, horizontal, etc. The guys above made good points about the grip, forearms and biceps being a weak point. Keep training and it will get better in time. And I wouldn’t worry about imbalances. Just starting out, I can guarantee that you don’t know what an actual imbalance feels like.

When the OP can barbell row 275-295 for 8 reps, then let him choose any method he likes. Until then, he'll get the most benefit from his gym efforts by using a barbell first and then machines later. No need to get raw novices thinking that advanced techniques or isolation movements work equally well for everyone. That misguided notion is what brings novices back to internet forums saying they haven't made any gains when they've used every machine in the gym.

Barbell movements activate more bodily musculature than machines that target specific muscles. In that sense, barbells are superior to machines for overall muscle development.

[Ironface]

“Superior” is subjective.

From a hypertrophy perspective, cable rows beats the chit out barbell rows for back development. Hammer chest presses and dumbbells bench both beat the chit out of barbell bench presses.

Consider barbell rows, unless you’re really upright, like in a Yates style row, they have a really chitty strength curve. Easy off the floor, hard at the top. Switching from sets of 8 barbell rows at 275-295 to cable rows and chest supported rows made my back explode with half the weight. Ditto for chest presses vs bench at 255-285 (coincidentally, no matter what, bench hurts my shoulders, paused, TnG, they all hurt).

Cable lateral raises will beat OHP for middle delt hypertrophy. And many more examples. There are many ways to train, none of which is “superior” to another. Just have to train with goals in mind. OP sounds like he wants a big strong back, so why limit himself to a barbell? He should use all the tools available.

OP, something that also REALLY helped is using a thumbless grip on all pulling movements, vertical, horizontal, etc. The guys above made good points about the grip, forearms and biceps being a weak point. Keep training and it will get better in time. And I wouldn’t worry about imbalances. Just starting out, I can guarantee that you don’t know what an actual imbalance feels like.

When the OP can barbell row 275-295 for 8 reps, then let him choose any method he likes. Until then, he'll get the most benefit from his gym efforts by using a barbell first and then machines later. No need to get raw novices thinking that advanced techniques or isolation movements work equally well for everyone. That misguided notion is what brings novices back to internet forums saying they haven't made any gains when they've used every machine in the gym.

Barbell movements activate more bodily musculature than machines that target specific muscles. In that sense, barbells are superior to machines for overall muscle development.

I like these debates.

Anyway, I think these discussions can become nuanced to the point where we see paralysis by analysis. A rank novice doesn’t need to worry about stimulus to fatigue ratios in the context of hypertrophying specific muscles because they’re not strong enough that it’s going to be a problem. With this in mind, they’d be better off sticking to the basics.

A novice doing 5 sets of 115lbs barbell rows isn’t going to bury their recovery. Doing that with 315lbs on the bar, now that is going to be a different story. There comes a point where, rather than doing 5 sets of the most taxing (but most efficient) exercise - in this case the barbell row - it might be wiser to instead only do 2 or 3 sets, and get the rest of your volume from a less taxing variation such as a cable row.

[BeginnerGainz]

When the OP can barbell row 275-295 for 8 reps, then let him choose any method he likes. Until then, he'll get the most benefit from his gym efforts by using a barbell first and then machines later. No need to get raw novices thinking that advanced techniques or isolation movements work equally well for everyone. That misguided notion is what brings novices back to internet forums saying they haven't made any gains when they've used every machine in the gym.

Barbell movements activate more bodily musculature than machines that target specific muscles. In that sense, barbells are superior to machines for overall muscle development.

I’d argue lack of consistency and results not happening fast enough is what keep people coming back.

[Garage Rat]

I would hire a knowledgable trainer to guide you in the right direction.
You can't beat one on one training to help you by pass things like learning technique and programing.
That being said it may be tough right now depending on what state your in.
Learning to feel what your doing is not as easy as it sounds.
It takes a metal aspect as well as the right technique for you personally to engage in fully activating the target area.
This is something that take time for some people.
Good luck to you.

[NomadNA]

Hi there. This is my first thread on this forum. Finally decided to check in.

So my question is. When i do back exercises i struggle to feel anything but a little bit of fatigue in the targeted muscles. Only been lifting for 1 month so i cant say im an expert, but i tried to read up on as much as possible. I do lat pulldowns, wide grip cable rows, rope facepulls etc. And i try to focus on retracting my scapula aswell as pulling with my "elbows" to make the back the main pulling muscle.

But even then i struggle, my biceps and forearms get more fatigued/lack of oxygen than my back.

I do also have a small kyphosis that makes retracting scapula harder.

So i wonder what could be the cause here?

Thanks for eventual answers.

Not enough information to diagnose so I'm just going to through random stuff against the wall.

Double check scapula retraction for horizontal pinching vs vertical rotation. Common misunderstanding.

For your mental elbow queue, try pulling the elbows "diagonally in", instead of "down".

Double check bar path. Alot of advanced athletes vary here. For me, I get the best pulldown results copying bar path from the strict press. So at the top of lat pulldown I have my head forward ("through the window" of the arms some say). As I pull the bar down to my upper pectorals, I slide my head back out "of the window" to the rear. Bring the bar to upper pectorals. To hit the terres major more, I rotation my chest upward at the bottom of the wide-grip motion. For lower lat focus I don't rotate my chest (should width grip).

The chest rotation, I based off observing those rediculous looking kipping pull-ups. Those athletes are pulling almost horizontally when they hit the bar with their chest and as a result their terres major seems alot more developed than their lats.

The "squeeze" at the bottom of a pulldown seems to be more important than weight progression. If I can do more weight but I can't squeeze at the bottom I back the weight down.

For pull-ups, over the years I've found some helpful videos that showed a lot of novices pull from a mechanically disadvantaged shoulder position. Muscle stretch is good but if you let your shoulders rotate out of their strongest position it makes it alot harder to pull with your lats. Understanding the "hanging hollow" position helped me improve my lat engagement thru the motion.

I've joined the negative face-pulls camp but my perception to the most common error is poor elbow to hand positioning. Even if the trainee half-way trying to keep the arms rotated up thru the whole movement, it can be somewhat painful on the rotator cuff, which inherently rewards cheating. I'm back on rear delt flys or rear W flys for RC.

[safcpaul]

The chest rotation, I based off observing those rediculous looking kipping pull-ups.

There's something fishy about them kipper pull ups

[GeneralSerpant]

Upper traps pull in the anterior deltoids while lower traps pull in the posterior deltoids. Comeon easy stuff here.

[smokinal]

Some good info here:

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...post1621623871

[NomadNA]

“Superior” is subjective.

Cable lateral raises will beat OHP for middle delt hypertrophy. And many more examples. There are many ways to train, none of which is “superior” to another. Just have to train with goals in mind. OP sounds like he wants a big strong back, so why limit himself to a barbell? He should use all the tools available.

I was going to give BG chit about the OHP/lat raise comparison but then I realized he's just trying to offer OP options around an injury. = )

I would just add the caveat you'd need to add 4-7+ isolation exercises to replace just the main groups hit in the OHP. To EC's point. I do both.

[MyEgoProblem]

So much confirmation bias in here...
Truth is individual in lifting.

That being said..
My Recommendations from experience with many lifters Ive coached over the years.

*Explosive (pendlay) rows from floor starting with scapula spread. Driving elbows hard.

*wide grip machine/cable row with elbows flared and pulled to sternum or higher depending if fixed grip or rope with a pause/iso contraction.. No heaving bs.

*band pull aparts! And a lot of them, but only quality reps. For feel and a disgusting naughty pump in the mid traps and rear delts

And a heavy bias to row over vertical pulls, and vertical pulls of done must have full scapula rom and finish retracted and depressed, not shrugged and rolled forward.

Use less weight than you think you need to start with.

[Ironface]

So much confirmation bias in here...
Truth is individual in lifting.

That being said..
My Recommendations from experience with many lifters Ive coached over the years.

*Explosive (pendlay) rows from floor starting with scapula spread.

*wide grip machine/cable row with elbows flared and pulled to sternum or higher depending if fixed grip or rope with a pause/iso contraction.. No heaving bs.

*band pull aparts! And a lot of them, but only quality reps. For feel.

And a heavy bias to row over vertical pulls, and vertical pulls of done must have full scapula rom and finish retracted and depressed, not shrugged and rolled forward.

Agreed^

[NewToLifting21]

Im grateful for all these advices. Im hungry for knowledge about lifting so i can get it going more optimal as soon as possible. Did my push day today (assumed P P L was good for beginners).

Definitely gonna take my time and test these out next time i go to the gym for pull.

So thank you very much. Really looking forward to seeing how i can develop due to already having a big stature while undertrained. So this will get me a long way

[BeginnerGainz]

Agreed^

I like it. Keeps this place from turning into the starting strength forums.

You will never laugh harder than to have someone tell you how their squat somehow builds up their rear delts or how deadlifts are better for scaps than a row.

[GeneralSerpant]

It's amazing how much the back coordinates with the hands to do anything from strong gripping to pulling movements.