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  1. #541
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    Originally Posted by GlobeRat View Post
    Never lifted before, so I'm sorry if this is a dumb question. I want to use dumbbells with this routine but there are only five exercises listed for dumbbells, and seven for barbells. Do I have to use a barbell to do this routine?
    Did you go by the name of Beach Rat and Mountain Rat a long time ago?
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  2. #542
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    Originally Posted by paulinkansas View Post
    Did you go by the name of Beach Rat and Mountain Rat a long time ago?
    No, this is just a random name I made up.
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    Originally Posted by GlobeRat View Post
    No, this is just a random name I made up.
    Thanks for the reply. She was someone I knew online 12 years ago.
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  4. #544
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    I've been lifting with dumb bells for 3 years and 18 days. There are variancies of the F5 that just use dumb bells.
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  5. #545
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    Originally Posted by GlobeRat View Post
    Never lifted before, so I'm sorry if this is a dumb question. I want to use dumbbells with this routine but there are only five exercises listed for dumbbells, and seven for barbells. Do I have to use a barbell to do this routine?
    5 need a variant, the ones not listed you just do them with dumbbell. But kinda dumb to put db curl in the db variant...
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  6. #546
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    So a random guy came up to me this morning in the gym and gave me some tips on my form. Wanted to post here to see if the tips were good or not. Most made sense and seemed to help isolate the muscle well enough.

    Curls – (from standing) bend the knees slightly to help prevent any hip movement. No need to raise the bar all the way as the bicep will not be under tension at the top of the movement. This seemed like good sense

    Bench Press – he recommended a fairly wide grip (appreciate this depends somewhat on my height/arm length). He recommended that the bar should come down roughly in line with the collar bone. He also said to bring your legs up so that your thighs are at a 90 degree angle to the floor to prevent using the feet to push up. I didn’t feel I was using my feet but using his method seemed to isolate my chest better but I've never seen people benching with their legs up like that

    Bent Over Row – he put the barbell on the floor, slight bend to the legs, bend over so your back is parallel to the floor, wide grip, lift the weight bringing the bar up in line with your collar bone. This did seem to put less strain on my lower back
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  7. #547
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    Originally Posted by dcanham001 View Post
    So a random guy came up to me this morning in the gym and gave me some tips on my form. Wanted to post here to see if the tips were good or not. Most made sense and seemed to help isolate the muscle well enough.

    Curls – (from standing) bend the knees slightly to help prevent any hip movement. No need to raise the bar all the way as the bicep will not be under tension at the top of the movement. This seemed like good sense

    Bench Press – he recommended a fairly wide grip (appreciate this depends somewhat on my height/arm length). He recommended that the bar should come down roughly in line with the collar bone. He also said to bring your legs up so that your thighs are at a 90 degree angle to the floor to prevent using the feet to push up. I didn’t feel I was using my feet but using his method seemed to isolate my chest better but I've never seen people benching with their legs up like that

    Bent Over Row – he put the barbell on the floor, slight bend to the legs, bend over so your back is parallel to the floor, wide grip, lift the weight bringing the bar up in line with your collar bone. This did seem to put less strain on my lower back
    No....

    Curls, he is kinda correct, they are not under tension at the top, if the elbow is directly under the bar at lockout. If your elbow stays mid torso or more towards your back, it still going to be under tension at lockout.

    Bench, everyone has different dimensions. However we are doing "hypertrophy work". We are not "practicing competition bench". The narrower you bench, the longer the rom, and the less stress on your elbows/shoulders. I recommend benching as narrow as comfortable. If you were training for competition, yea you would be going as wide as possible(widest legal grip is index fingers at 810mm apart) with a huge back arch and a sub 8" rom. He is also recommending benching straight up and down, instead of an elliptical bar path. This is completely wrong, and will hurt your elbows over time. Maybe you miss heard him and he meant to stay to start and stop the movement over your collar bone... But most will be hitting the chest below the nipple line with a comfortable narrow grip.

    Bent over row, He is right in the fact he wants you to hit the same spot on your chest as your bench. But again narrow as comfortable for the max rom and least elbow/shoulder strain. And we are not doing the back parallel to the floor variant. We are also not doing the "ride the bar up the quads" variant. Ya bend over enough that you naturally hit at or just below the the spot you hit on the bench press.


    Again we are doing "hypertrophy work", which is completely contradictory of "competition form". And yes people will tell you, you are "doing it wrong". Doing it as i described will result in using the least amount of weight, greatest rom, and be horrible for training for a competition. But this is a body building routine with a secondary goal of long term joint and connective tissue health...
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  8. #548
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    No....

    Curls, he is kinda correct, they are not under tension at the top, if the elbow is directly under the bar at lockout. If your elbow stays mid torso or more towards your back, it still going to be under tension at lockout.

    Bench, everyone has different dimensions. However we are doing "hypertrophy work". We are not "practicing competition bench". The narrower you bench, the longer the rom, and the less stress on your elbows/shoulders. I recommend benching as narrow as comfortable. If you were training for competition, yea you would be going as wide as possible(widest legal grip is index fingers at 810mm apart) with a huge back arch and a sub 8" rom. He is also recommending benching straight up and down, instead of an elliptical bar path. This is completely wrong, and will hurt your elbows over time. Maybe you miss heard him and he meant to stay to start and stop the movement over your collar bone... But most will be hitting the chest below the nipple line with a comfortable narrow grip.

    Bent over row, He is right in the fact he wants you to hit the same spot on your chest as your bench. But again narrow as comfortable for the max rom and least elbow/shoulder strain. And we are not doing the back parallel to the floor variant. We are also not doing the "ride the bar up the quads" variant. Ya bend over enough that you naturally hit at or just below the the spot you hit on the bench press.


    Again we are doing "hypertrophy work", which is completely contradictory of "competition form". And yes people will tell you, you are "doing it wrong". Doing it as i described will result in using the least amount of weight, greatest rom, and be horrible for training for a competition. But this is a body building routine with a secondary goal of long term joint and connective tissue health...
    Thanks for this nightanole. In regards to the Bench, I'm using the Smith machine hence the straight up and down.
    Sounds like I was doing the Row correctly then which is good to know.
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  9. #549
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    Originally Posted by dcanham001 View Post
    Thanks for this nightanole. In regards to the Bench, I'm using the Smith machine hence the straight up and down.
    Sounds like I was doing the Row correctly then which is good to know.
    Does your gym have an elliptical bar path bench machine? I think they are called "hammer strength" or something. Or a smith with a "bit of slack", they have like +-3" back and forth swivel. But you have these magical things call elbows, and they dont really like straight bar paths.
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  10. #550
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Does your gym have an elliptical bar path bench machine? I think they are called "hammer strength" or something. Or a smith with a "bit of slack", they have like +-3" back and forth swivel. But you have these magical things call elbows, and they dont really like straight bar paths.
    I'll check the machine options next time I'm in. Roger that on the straight bar paths...I guess I was attracted to the smith machine because I'm worried about dropping it on my head or something. Suppose I need to find a balance between lifting a weight that's comfortable and lifting enough for it to be a real effort without endangering myself
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  11. #551
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    Originally Posted by dcanham001 View Post
    I'll check the machine options next time I'm in. Roger that on the straight bar paths...I guess I was attracted to the smith machine because I'm worried about dropping it on my head or something. Suppose I need to find a balance between lifting a weight that's comfortable and lifting enough for it to be a real effort without endangering myself
    I bench(well i do everything) in a "power rack". So when i bench i put the safety bars right below my arched chest level. If something goes wrong, i can just drop the weight, and de arch my chest and scoot out. I dont trust gym bro spotters.

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  12. #552
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    Hi nightanole,
    So I have completed my 2 cycles(passed my 2 test days in total 10 weeks) but in my test day my last exercise of bicep curls was very very hard. It took be alot of efforts to do the 12 but I did it.

    Now I have to increase my 10% weights, for all other exercises I am comfortable however for bicep curls and overhead I cannot find a weight that will be exactly 10%. Infact if I do the math it will be 15%.

    I am confident I could do all exercises with 10% increased weight and also overhead with 15% increase whereas bicep curls I am not very confident.

    My question is what do you advise? Should I increase all exercises and keep bicep weight same as old one?

    Knowing overhead press is also 15% increase so it will balance maybe?

    Or should I also increase bicep curls to 15% and see how it goes?

    Thank you so much brother!
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  13. #553
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    Originally Posted by Shadybaby316 View Post
    Hi nightanole,
    So I have completed my 2 cycles(passed my 2 test days in total 10 weeks) but in my test day my last exercise of bicep curls was very very hard. It took be alot of efforts to do the 12 but I did it.

    Now I have to increase my 10% weights, for all other exercises I am comfortable however for bicep curls and overhead I cannot find a weight that will be exactly 10%. Infact if I do the math it will be 15%.

    I am confident I could do all exercises with 10% increased weight and also overhead with 15% increase whereas bicep curls I am not very confident.

    My question is what do you advise? Should I increase all exercises and keep bicep weight same as old one?

    Knowing overhead press is also 15% increase so it will balance maybe?

    Or should I also increase bicep curls to 15% and see how it goes?

    Thank you so much brother!
    You are allowed to fail...

    If you bump 15%, and fail, that means there is high odds of passing the next cycle. SO that's still going to be 7%/8% average improvement over the next 2 cycles.

    But without a fractional weight set, or some diy 1-2 pound chain hoops, its going to be hard to get exactly 10% on the lighter lifts.

    The curl balances the row
    The OHP balances the bench

    So even if you fail both the ohp and curl this next cycle, and pass the two main lifts, you are still applying progressive overload to those muscle groups.
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  14. #554
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    You are allowed to fail...

    If you bump 15%, and fail, that means there is high odds of passing the next cycle. SO that's still going to be 7%/8% average improvement over the next 2 cycles.

    But without a fractional weight set, or some diy 1-2 pound chain hoops, its going to be hard to get exactly 10% on the lighter lifts.

    The curl balances the row
    The OHP balances the bench

    So even if you fail both the ohp and curl this next cycle, and pass the two main lifts, you are still applying progressive overload to those muscle groups.
    Thank you so much for the response, so lets say I will fail my test day in next cycle of bicep curls, I would have to repeat the cycle with the weights again right? or do I increase the weights where I passed and keep the bicep curls weight same on where I failed (which would be 15% bump)

    thank you for confirming
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  15. #555
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    Originally Posted by Shadybaby316 View Post
    Thank you so much for the response, so lets say I will fail my test day in next cycle of bicep curls, I would have to repeat the cycle with the weights again right? or do I increase the weights where I passed and keep the bicep curls weight same on where I failed (which would be 15% bump)

    thank you for confirming
    If you fail to get in 2 sets of 12 on an exercise, you repeat the next cycle with the test days working weight.

    Now if you go off the menu a little, if you are not sure of you passed OHP and curl, you can, on light day of test week, go for 1 set of ten reps with the "new" working weight of next cycle. This ten rep test is more for people who are trying to bump more than 10%, but it can also work for people who are not sure if they even passed testday to begin with.

    So normally this 10 rep test goes:

    bump 10%, get in 10 reps, good for next cycle with the normal 10% bump
    Bump 20% because testday was easy, get in 10 reps, good for next cycle with 20% bump
    Bump 20% because testday was easy, fail to get 10 reps, good for next cycle with just a 10% bump

    So if you do this 10 rep test with 15% and fail, there is a good chance you will fail the next test day.
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  16. #556
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    Thanks for taking your time to update these threads, I find it really valuable. I got 2 questions

    Would you do core/abs training at the end of a session, or on an offday?
    Also, I seem to increase my strength way faster than 10% (just started lifting again on a 8 year break). - So is it fine I do it unregulated the first 2 cycles?
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    Originally Posted by itsjoedoe View Post
    Thanks for taking your time to update these threads, I find it really valuable. I got 2 questions

    Would you do core/abs training at the end of a session, or on an offday?
    Also, I seem to increase my strength way faster than 10% (just started lifting again on a 8 year break). - So is it fine I do it unregulated the first 2 cycles?
    If you have recovery issues, do them at the end of the sessions. This is for max recovery so you dont have a compromised core during next sessions squats for example. However if you are fine, you can do them on off days so you can do more work.

    Your choices are:
    vanilla and bump 15-25%. 10% is the absolute min for the pattern to work, n00bs can double squat weight with just "practice" in 3 cycles if the never squatted before.
    auto regulated. But autoregulated is technically for folks who CAN NOT keep up with the 10% bumps AND need more volume to progress. But if you know how to lift already, autoregulated can be ran for the entire duration of allpro. N00bs running autoregulated right off the bat will get injured.
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  18. #558
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    If you have recovery issues, do them at the end of the sessions. This is for max recovery so you dont have a compromised core during next sessions squats for example. However if you are fine, you can do them on off days so you can do more work.

    Your choices are:
    vanilla and bump 15-25%. 10% is the absolute min for the pattern to work, n00bs can double squat weight with just "practice" in 3 cycles if the never squatted before.
    auto regulated. But autoregulated is technically for folks who CAN NOT keep up with the 10% bumps AND need more volume to progress. But if you know how to lift already, autoregulated can be ran for the entire duration of allpro. N00bs running autoregulated right off the bat will get injured.
    Thanks a lot. What I meant was just to go the first 2 cycles with a lot more than 10-25%. Not sure if that is Vanilla and bump.
    How many weighted abs excersises do you suggest? - Also what do you think about adding shoulder lats after cycle 2 or 3?
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  19. #559
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    Originally Posted by itsjoedoe View Post
    Thanks a lot. What I meant was just to go the first 2 cycles with a lot more than 10-25%. Not sure if that is Vanilla and bump.
    How many weighted abs excersises do you suggest? - Also what do you think about adding shoulder lats after cycle 2 or 3?
    How about a compromise. Run auto regulated for a few weeks. It shouldnt take long to nail down your true working weight. I mean if you ran auto regulated 3 days a week, and pass 3 days a week, you would be doing 40% worth of bumpage weekly. Switch to Vanilla once you can not pass every 2 weeks for 2 out of 3 of the bench/row/squat.

    Im not very good at programming Abs. Ive listed the recommended ab exercises in the faq. But i would not be spending more than 4 sets total between all the ab exercises per session. Maybe 2 sessions a week.

    Not sure if its in the faq, but "most" beginners are going to need lat and side delt work by the end of a beginner routine. After you pass two vanilla test days, you are allowed to add an accessory, you could make that be shoulder lats. after you pass another test day you can add your second accessory.
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  20. #560
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    I have a question regarding rest times between sets.

    I have read on a few different forums. The higher the rep count the longer your rest between sets should be.

    Seeing this is a fatigued based system my rests are as follows.

    Heavy Day -1min
    Med day. -45sec
    Light day. - 30 sec

    Should I be resting more between sets?
    Last edited by FitBeyondForty; 09-29-2021 at 03:15 PM.
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    Originally Posted by FitBeyondForty View Post
    I have a question regarding rest times between sets.

    I have read on a few different forums. The higher the rep count the longer your rest between sets should be.

    Seeing this is a fatigued based system my rests are as follows.

    Heavy Day -1min
    Med day. -45sec
    Light day. - 30 sec

    Should I be resting more between sets?
    I tell people to rest as long as possible(90 seconds) on heavy day so form doesnt go to crap, and then keep medium and light day rest as short as possible. 30 seconds on light day is not uncommon for 8-9 rep weeks. Basically the shorter the rest, the more you will benefit from the second set.
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    I tell people to rest as long as possible(90 seconds) on heavy day so form doesnt go to crap, and then keep medium and light day rest as short as possible. 30 seconds on light day is not uncommon for 8-9 rep weeks. Basically the shorter the rest, the more you will benefit from the second set.
    So I should take the full 90sec on heavy day then? Even if I'm able to keep proper form with a 1min rest?
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    Have been doing this workout for a number of months now and wondering what to do next.. Has @allpro written an intermediate workout program? Would love something similar to his beginner one.. Any ideas @nightanole?
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    Originally Posted by FitBeyondForty View Post
    So I should take the full 90sec on heavy day then? Even if I'm able to keep proper form with a 1min rest?
    If you can keep proper form and bar speed, go for it! But if bar speed drops by half for the last 3-4 reps, there was no point in rushing the set. This is not 3x5 were you WANT good form grinders.
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    Originally Posted by cpde View Post
    Have been doing this workout for a number of months now and wondering what to do next.. Has @allpro written an intermediate workout program? Would love something similar to his beginner one.. Any ideas @nightanole?
    Q11: What is the next step beyond ALLPRO?
    A: 5/3/1 BBB with the BBB lift on opposite days of the core lift.
    Greyskull LP, Start off with the /FIT variant. Do not do the phraks(beginner) variant.
    Or rotated allpro intermediate every 6-8 weeks
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=135025731
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    If you can keep proper form and bar speed, go for it! But if bar speed drops by half for the last 3-4 reps, there was no point in rushing the set. This is not 3x5 were you WANT good form grinders.
    I thought the point of a fatigued based system was that you wanted the last few reps on your final set to be grinders.

    AKA: just shy of failure

    Maybe I misinterpreted something somewhere
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    Originally Posted by FitBeyondForty View Post
    I thought the point of a fatigued based system was that you wanted the last few reps on your final set to be grinders.

    AKA: just shy of failure

    Maybe I misinterpreted something somewhere
    Nah its just in the wording. On auto regulated i tell you to stop at a sloooooow good form rep. But if you have 3-4 of those, its going to really rob your recovery. So you could say yes, you want your final set to be just shy of failure. But what is a grinder? If you have 4 grinders on test day, and "pass". Then try to do 8 rep with 110% of that weight, what are the odds its just going to be more grinder?

    But i am for a grinder or so every once and a while, but again, going to failure is going to really rob your recover, and i just dont think they are worth it on allrpo. There are even some coaches who say you shouldnt be able to tell the difference between your first warmup rep and your last working rep, other than how much weight is on the bar. Bu those guys are at the extreme end of things. On the other end is rippetoe who looooooves grinders and very very long rest periods, but on his programs you are doing 15 reps in about 15-20 minutes.
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Nah its just in the wording. On auto regulated i tell you to stop at a sloooooow good form rep. But if you have 3-4 of those, its going to really rob your recovery. So you could say yes, you want your final set to be just shy of failure. But what is a grinder? If you have 4 grinders on test day, and "pass". Then try to do 8 rep with 110% of that weight, what are the odds its just going to be more grinder?

    But i am for a grinder or so every once and a while, but again, going to failure is going to really rob your recover, and i just dont think they are worth it on allrpo. There are even some coaches who say you shouldnt be able to tell the difference between your first warmup rep and your last working rep, other than how much weight is on the bar. Bu those guys are at the extreme end of things. On the other end is rippetoe who looooooves grinders and very very long rest periods, but on his programs you are doing 15 reps in about 15-20 minutes.
    Okay. As I mentioned before I shortened my rest period etween sets because I didn't feel I was working the muscle enough. I'm not going to say every rep was easy, but at the end of a session I didn't "feel it" the way I thought I should. I feel at the end of a session you should have a good post lift "pump" going on....
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    Originally Posted by FitBeyondForty View Post
    Okay. As I mentioned before I shortened my rest period etween sets because I didn't feel I was working the muscle enough. I'm not going to say every rep was easy, but at the end of a session I didn't "feel it" the way I thought I should. I feel at the end of a session you should have a good post lift "pump" going on....
    Thats also up for debate. If you talk to power lifters, they hate the pump, and do whatever they can to not get the pump. "Pump and you are done" or something to that effect. On the other hand with allpro, even when i was running, i very clearly remember not being able to reach my face with a razor directly after the workout from the bicep pump :P

    But this is fatigue based training, the closer you train to failure, the MUCH faster you deplete your recovery. So say you gave it your all, almost blew a blood vessel, but got in 22 reps total. You are not going to be able to repeat that display in 48 hours, infact you may be down for the count for the next 4-5 days. Or you could have just done 16-18 reps, and be able to repeat the display in 48 hours.

    Anything goes, but its volume per week that will determine your gains. And its your recovery that is the limiting factor of your volume. Its a giant pain to balance.
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    So, I'm going to have to skip my workout today. Cycle 3 and today would be medium day 11 reps. 2nd covid shot has me down.

    With Monday being test day, should I do another heavy day tomorrow or Friday, or medium day tomorrow and light day Saturday?
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