Personal training style advice request (long post)

[rsid97]

Hello everyone, former regular advice giver looking to receive some thoughts here. I'll give sufficient background info, since this is a personalized issue. The short question is regarding training styles and what direction might be appropriate for me going forward as a somewhat, mid-late stage intermediate lifter.

Background info, been training for 7 years. Started off weighing 46kg @ 5ft 11.5". My early years were on low volume, high frequency, compound based programs like what we recommend on here (stronglifts - > fierce 5 novice).

End of novice phase stats (after fierce 5):

BW- 60kg, approximately 12% bodyfat (based on photo reviews from people here and irl coaches, but imo it was higher than that)
Squat - 121.6kg/268lbs
Bench- 83.3kg/183.8lbs
Deadlift- 162.5kg/358lbs
OHP- 60.8kg/133.8lbs

Starting intermediate phase, I ran GST from the stickies after picking between it and HST as my goals are purely physique oriented, but was tossing up between that and one of the 531 hypertrophy templates, but went with GST in the end. Made my best gains that year in terms of adding size and improving my working maxes, but 1RMs didn't budge too too far, and I do seem to respond very well to the high volume approach.

Stats at the end of GST:

BW- 82kg @ 18% BF
Squat - 127.5kg
Bench - 95kg
Deadlift- 165kg
OHP - 62.5kg
Chest supported hammer strength row - 160kg (x8)

By the end of this program I needed to make a switch since I found that while the volume was treating me well in terms of physical progress, I was very soon stalling in terms of strength, which was in term coming back to stall the physical progress. I was also finding that with running an U/L/U/L routine, the amount of volume being sent through to my lower body was making my glutes and adductors grow faster than I wanted to, leading to a bottom heavy physique, while the systemic fatigue was coming back to impact my upper body days.

To try to fix these issues, I then moved on to the fierce 5 ULPPL with an extra arm day as the 6th. This carried me a decent way in terms of my strength, particularly my 1RMs improving. And the dedicated arm day resulted in me growing more on my arms in that year, than any of the years prior. The issue that I then ran into was that the moment I started to exceed 85kg bodyweight, it seemed that no matter how slowly I gained, no matter how my lifts improved or high my protein intake was, the only physical measurement that was increasing was my tummy/waist. And it certainly was *very* prominent. And I'm fine gaining some fat, which is inevitable like how we tell everyone here, but when the only thing growing is my tummy... that's not something positive imo. It seemed like I was sitting around 19% BF at 85kg, which would jump up to 24% if I took any steps past that bodyweight.

After getting some external opinions, I did a lil-minicut, went into maintenance and then back to bulking, with the only difference being I was using a volume periodization approach to some of the movements in the ULPPL routine, in conjunction with the usual adding weight protocol. This worked in the sense that I broke past that 85kg barrier, without the sudden BF% jump. But I eventually ran into the same issue once I reached 91kg bodyweight.

Stats at end of bulk:

BW- 91kg, 23% BF
Squat - 155kg
Bench - 107.5kg
Deadlift - 192.5kg
OHP - 75kg

Went on a long cut after that, maintained almost all of my strength with only slight losses, considering I dropped 10% of my body fat, and took 9 inches off my tummy/waist.

Current stats:

BW- 73kg, 13% BF
Squat - 150kg
Bench - 102.5kg
Deadlift - 190kg
OHP - 75kg

So, comparing starting and ending stats, there certainly is a lot of change, both strength wise and body composition wise. But Iam stuck in my head about how to break past my previous limitations since the plan is to bulk back up but there's that recurring issue going on, hence Iam looking for opinions.

My experiences suggest that in the absence of higher volumes, my body's nutrition partitioning, and how much muscle it puts on relative to how much fat for a given body weight increase just goes to ****. But when I use that sort of an approach, I run into a wall with my progress and eventually find myself having to lower the volume to allow for more strength progress, but running that for any reasonable period of time results in gaining more abdominal fat than any worthwhile amount of muscle.

So what would people suggest that I do in terms of training styles going forward or really any solutions to this issue?

Give any of the 531 templates a try which I haven't so far? Something more intense like DC training? Stick to the Mike Israetel style ULPPL? Or is it about time that I have to create something of my own?

Thank you for anyone that read this far

[ECGordyn]

Do I understand right that you've run mostly higher volume programs for the past 7 years, with your goals being physique oriented, and now the problem is that you can't gain much muscle without gaining a lot of fat?

Could be just the life of the intermediate, where gains have really slowed down. A completely new stimulus like 531 or a powerlifting program could work.

[WolfRose7]

I can't rate the choice of 531 out of everything out there.

Perhaps a powerbuilding style program from Bb Med or RtS

As for fat gain, you seem to have no issue cutting so maybe it's not an issue. You could try eating closer to maintenance for a while and see what happens. I've personally put on some good upper body mass while slowly dropping weight recently, but no lower body gains from what I can tell.

[TAWS6]

I think at your level you won't be gaining much no matter what you do. There are a few different ways you could go. A PHAT variant seems like a good idea imo. Lyle also has his specialization cycles which might be worth looking into. 5/3/1 3 month BBB is good but it grinds you into the dust lol.

[rsid97]

Do I understand right that you've run mostly higher volume programs for the past 7 years, with your goals being physique oriented, and now the problem is that you can't gain much muscle without gaining a lot of fat?

Could be just the life of the intermediate, where gains have really slowed down. A completely new stimulus like 531 or a powerlifting program could work.

Essentially, yes. But specifically its not that muscle gains are coming slowly. It seems more like I heat this ceiling at 85-90kg where I'm needing both strength and volume improvements to stop myself from gaining a disproportionate amount of fat, compared to muscle, which isn't a feasible balance within my programming knowledge.

Would you say 531 BBB or a different variant?

[rsid97]

I can't rate the choice of 531 out of everything out there.

Perhaps a powerbuilding style program from Bb Med or RtS

As for fat gain, you seem to have no issue cutting so maybe it's not an issue. You could try eating closer to maintenance for a while and see what happens. I've personally put on some good upper body mass while slowly dropping weight recently, but no lower body gains from what I can tell.

Gotcha. Are the powerbuilding programs the paid ones or are there free ones from those two that Iam not aware of?

Yeah, dropping bodyweight has always been very easy for me, I was eating like 4000+ calories at the end of my last cut lol. The issue in mind (outside of the short term aesthetics of it) is whether Iam actually retaining any of the muscle after cutting, since once I hit that 85-90 range, it seems to be mostly fatty gains. Sticking closer to maintenance and seeing how things go is worth a try tho, shall keep that in mind when I get back up closer to that range.

[rsid97]

I think at your level you won't be gaining much no matter what you do. There are a few different ways you could go. A PHAT variant seems like a good idea imo. Lyle also has his specialization cycles which might be worth looking into. 5/3/1 3 month BBB is good but it grinds you into the dust lol.

That is worrisome indeed. I've gained a lot of size over the years, but because I was anorexic when I started, it feels like after all these years I've only now come to look like a 'normal' person.

I've always been critical of PHAT when I used to comment on here. Since I felt it was a bit over the top to try to balance so much volume while hitting heavy lifts on the same day. But, now, it looks like I might actually have to suck it up and give it a try.

531 BBB is lotttt less volume and intensity than I've normally used. So I reckon I should be able to run that without getting burnt out, assuming we're both talking about the same, 3 movements a day BBB.

[TAWS6]

That is worrisome indeed. I've gained a lot of size over the years, but because I was anorexic when I started, it feels like after all these years I've only now come to look like a 'normal' person.

I've always been critical of PHAT when I used to comment on here. Since I felt it was a bit over the top to try to balance so much volume while hitting heavy lifts on the same day. But, now, it looks like I might actually have to suck it up and give it a try.

531 BBB is lotttt less volume and intensity than I've normally used. So I reckon I should be able to run that without getting burnt out, assuming we're both talking about the same, 3 movements a day BBB.

I did not mean the original phat. Something like the 5 day AWR. I also meant the 3 month challenge 5/3/1 version posted below.

https://www.aworkoutroutine.com/5-day-workout-routine/


https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/bo...onth-challenge

[WolfRose7]

Gotcha. Are the powerbuilding programs the paid ones or are there free ones from those two that Iam not aware of?

Yeah, dropping bodyweight has always been very easy for me, I was eating like 4000+ calories at the end of my last cut lol. The issue in mind (outside of the short term aesthetics of it) is whether Iam actually retaining any of the muscle after cutting, since once I hit that 85-90 range, it seems to be mostly fatty gains. Sticking closer to maintenance and seeing how things go is worth a try tho, shall keep that in mind when I get back up closer to that range.

They are paid I'm afraid.

[OldFartTom]

No idea any advice. Personally I can learn stuff by carefully reading your problems and how you got there! Thanks for being so detailed in your posts

[air2fakie]

That is worrisome indeed. I've gained a lot of size over the years, but because I was anorexic when I started, it feels like after all these years I've only now come to look like a 'normal' person.

I've always been critical of PHAT when I used to comment on here. Since I felt it was a bit over the top to try to balance so much volume while hitting heavy lifts on the same day. But, now, it looks like I might actually have to suck it up and give it a try.

531 BBB is lotttt less volume and intensity than I've normally used. So I reckon I should be able to run that without getting burnt out, assuming we're both talking about the same, 3 movements a day BBB.

Couple of random thoughts since you sound like you've tried different approaches:

- You can ramp up volume very gradually rather than jumping into a higher volume program, to see if that helps you handle increased volume while still progressing on lifts.

- Do you do any cardio? It likely doesn't matter but since you're having the fat issue as you gain weight you could give it a try and see how your body responds while you gain weight.

[rsid97]

I did not mean the original phat. Something like the 5 day AWR. I also meant the 3 month challenge 5/3/1 version posted below.

https://www.aworkoutroutine.com/5-day-workout-routine/


https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/bo...onth-challenge

Gotcha! I'll have a look through them.

[rsid97]

No idea any advice. Personally I can learn stuff by carefully reading your problems and how you got there! Thanks for being so detailed in your posts

No worries man, I'm glad it was of help to someone

[rsid97]

Couple of random thoughts since you sound like you've tried different approaches:

- You can ramp up volume very gradually rather than jumping into a higher volume program, to see if that helps you handle increased volume while still progressing on lifts.

- Do you do any cardio? It likely doesn't matter but since you're having the fat issue as you gain weight you could give it a try and see how your body responds while you gain weight.

1) I agree with you on that. There is always an initial volume spike when going from a full body routine to an UL or from any low volume routine to a high volume one. Beyond that point, what I have done is a volume ramp over the course of time with deloads plugged in as needed. So it is something that I'm already doing.

2) In the gym itself, I don't do any cardio. But I do spend 1.5 hours walking daily, to and from work, which is what I've considered as my 'cardio' when Iam not cutting. My general understanding has always been that cardio works as a fat loss tool via it's influence on calories. So the way I've seen it is that doing extra cardio would reduce the size of the surplus that Iam in, lowering rate of weight gain and reducing potential fat gain in that manner. Which for me would make bulking a rather uphill struggle given my genetics and metabolic rate (I was eating 4000+ calories when I was at the end of my last *cut*). But I do see that there's the idea that LISS could utilize fat as an energy source which may be beneficial to this issue, and I guess when someones at this stage, it's worth experimenting with whatever they can get their hands on. So everything is worth a try!

[TAWS6]

Also I'm not sure if you've heard of PFAU Fitness (Adam PFAU). He use to post on here. Now he's mostly on Instagram. He's a pro natural (yes I think he's actually natural lol)... He has a decent PHAT style program that does all heavy work on upper and lower days then hyper/volume work on the PPL days. The only issue I found with that approach is that the heavy days are really draining versus spreading it out over the week like Fierce 5 advanced does.