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  1. #1
    Registered User TugOfPeace's Avatar
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    Day trading to make serious money

    I've been posting in the trading threads since early this year and haven't learned much outside the basics. Made plenty of rookie mistakes. However now I've devoted time to learning from some experienced people on the fundamentals. This is just day trading, not investing.

    I'm an electrical engineer by trade and started wondering, why don't more people pursue day trading as a way to make serious money?

    I'm aware it isn't easy for most people to have discipline and look for patterns and whatnot and really invest their time towards it, but for the ones that do, why is it that even they fail?

    If you're trading with above $25k and focus on short term exposure to the markets for high volatility trades and you're familiar with the particular pattern of the trade at the time and you're not trading a stock dominated by HFT algos, why is the failure rate so high?

    Say a guy starts off with $25k and shoots for a modest $100 daily gain for starters. That's $2k/month, or $24k/year. Say you have more capital than that and shoot for higher gains.

    Why is the failure rate so high?
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  2. #2
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    emotions, mainly. People can't handle their chit and go full tilt too easily, get shaken out of good trades, etc etc.

    They don't manage their risk properly. Get greedy, get stubborn, get complacent. Focus too much on winning big and ignore the fact that a full 50% of the successful equation is minimizing losses, otherwise your nice gains will only be offsetting your previous big losses and you tread water not being profitable over time.

    Also don't properly utilize technical analysis, which ultimately is about identifying supply and demand imbalances and momentum, areas of supply and demand that could provide a pivot point in trend. Then there's properly applying the TA into trading which is a separate thing, identifying high probability setups and being patient enough to wait for them instead of fomo'ing into a chitty setup.

    They don't zoom out on the chart, said another way they usually are too focused on low timeframes and miss the forest for the trees. Have to keep an eye on multiple timeframes at all times.


    They also pay attention to news and trade based off it. In reality, once you're hearing the news as a retail pleb the big boys have already known about it and will eat your lunch.
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  3. #3
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    Stick to your risk management plan. Mine is - sell for a loss if it drops 1-2% of your capital (when day trading). It's easier said than done, and is the reason I am down 2k this week. If I had stuck to this plan I would be up. I'm guessing this is how most traders blow up their account - they don't want to take the small loss, and hold on to a bag hoping it will go up.
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    Originally Posted by TugOfPeace View Post

    If you're trading with above $25k and focus on short term exposure to the markets for high volatility trades and you're familiar with the particular pattern of the trade at the time and you're not trading a stock dominated by HFT algos, why is the failure rate so high?

    Say a guy starts off with $25k and shoots for a modest $100 daily gain for starters. That's $2k/month, or $24k/year. Say you have more capital than that and shoot for higher gains.

    Why is the failure rate so high?
    Aim to become profitable trader first. That's gonna take atleast a few years of experience.

    Day trading is a very hard game to play , No matter which markets you are trading. 90%+ of traders are not annually profitable.

    You will be lucky to even survive first year without blowing your account.

    https://chatwithtraders.com/ep-176-alex-tagrtrades/

    That podcast is aimed at beginner traders, so maybe it will help.

    My suggestion is to keep your day job while trading on the side for atleast a couple of years, save a looooot of money and then think about getting into trading.

    But its definitely possible to be profitable trading. 30% a year is a very very good return to aim for.
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  5. #5
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    Failure rate is high because you can do all the tech analysis you want, know the companies inside and out, have a great feel of the macro economic environment, but none of that really matters because its all "baked in." Prices go up and down because perception changes. Perception drives demand for stocks. There's also some factors at play like the fed has/had a large short volatility position (IE short the VIX). This keeps instability suppressed, coupled with the "Fed Put," which is closely related to how most gains are on Fed day (as I call it).

    “In a 2011 paper, New York Fed economists showed that from 1994 to 2011 almost all the S&P 500’s returns came in the 3 days around an FOMC decision. Over this period the index rose by 270%, and most of those gains happened the before, the day of, and the day after a Fed meeting.”
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    Originally Posted by iifymbro View Post
    identifying high probability setups and being patient enough to wait for them instead of fomo'ing into a chitty setup.

    They don't zoom out on the chart, said another way they usually are too focused on low timeframes and miss the forest for the trees. Have to keep an eye on multiple timeframes at all times.
    I don't know about the stock guys but this definitely sounds like the average crypto investor.

    "why are you buying that project? it's not even pumping?" no but it pumped 80% 6 months ago, and now it's down 60% from the ath... it's called buying low, selling high lol.
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  7. #7
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    Originally Posted by TugOfPeace View Post
    I've been posting in the trading threads since early this year and haven't learned much outside the basics. Made plenty of rookie mistakes. However now I've devoted time to learning from some experienced people on the fundamentals. This is just day trading, not investing.

    I'm an electrical engineer by trade and started wondering, why don't more people pursue day trading as a way to make serious money?

    I'm aware it isn't easy for most people to have discipline and look for patterns and whatnot and really invest their time towards it, but for the ones that do, why is it that even they fail?

    If you're trading with above $25k and focus on short term exposure to the markets for high volatility trades and you're familiar with the particular pattern of the trade at the time and you're not trading a stock dominated by HFT algos, why is the failure rate so high?

    Say a guy starts off with $25k and shoots for a modest $100 daily gain for starters. That's $2k/month, or $24k/year. Say you have more capital than that and shoot for higher gains.

    Why is the failure rate so high?
    Every stock is dominated by algos. These same algos are designed to screw out as many participants as possible at spots that their emotions run too hot, which is why most day traders fail.

    If you're looking at day-trading stocks with a goal of $x/day, you're going to fail, I can almost assure it.

    The market only gives you what it wants, each day will be different, you can't have a goal like that.

    You're more likely to be successful if you make it your goal to trade your system that has an edge and not break any rules(you will always break some rules, you're human, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face). Even losing trades can be good if it's taken within system confines, whereas winning trades could've been pure luck, you've got to be able to distinguish the difference.
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  8. #8
    Banned keyboardworkout's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TugOfPeace View Post
    I'm an electrical engineer by trade and started wondering, why don't more people pursue day trading as a way to make serious money?
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  9. #9
    Registered User Slamt's Avatar
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    Who are these "experienced people" you speak of btw, just curious.
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    Its extremely risky and time consuming.


    Awhile back I as watching some youtube videos of a female day trader and she basically wakes up at like 3:00AM to start getting ready and spends a large portion of her day in front of her computer analyzing the market.

    Brb spending 12 hours per day in a high risk, high stress position to hopefully make enough money for an income with the risk/probability that you blow your money and end up broke.


    With Covid I made a good deal of money doing 'short term trades' but it was due to insane volatility and luck.
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  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by guest89 View Post
    Its extremely risky and time consuming.


    Awhile back I as watching some youtube videos of a female day trader and she basically wakes up at like 3:00AM to start getting ready and spends a large portion of her day in front of her computer analyzing the market.

    Brb spending 12 hours per day in a high risk, high stress position to hopefully make enough money for an income with the risk/probability that you blow your money and end up broke.


    With Covid I made a good deal of money doing 'short term trades' but it was due to insane volatility and luck.
    You're not spending 12hrs per day when your goal is to make 100 dollars a day. Those are professional day traders who are trading 6 to 7 figures worth of securities per day spending 12hrs straight.
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  12. #12
    Registered User TugOfPeace's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Heaney View Post
    You're not spending 12hrs per day when your goal is to make 100 dollars a day. Those are professional day traders who are trading 6 to 7 figures worth of securities per day spending 12hrs straight.
    Just an example; let's say I have $25k and decide to make $200/day my goal.

    If I monitored a stock like AAPL for example, it usually has a sizable enough daily variance. If I drop $25k in there (I'm aware this is a questionable strategy, dropping a lot of capital for a small gain), and buy 218 shares @ $115, in order to make $200 I would just have to wait for an increase in share price to $116.

    That's hardly a big risk, of course many days I may end up losing, or I may end up holding a bag for a while due to emotions, but that's just an example. That's a strategy that could conceivably earn me $500/week.

    Now, scale that to an investment of $50k, $75k, $100k, etc. Then you start to see where the numbers add up over time.

    A gross oversimplification, but it illustrates my point
    Last edited by TugOfPeace; 10-24-2020 at 06:11 PM.
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    Last year When I used to trade crypto I started with 30$ they give you just test things out and see if I could make a prophet, and I actually turned it into like 60$ In like 2 months doin small trades but a lot of them

    That’s double your money in 2 months

    Keep In mind I kno nothin about trading and still am a complete noob.. I’m dumb asf tbh. But I was literally just looking for patterns and it seemed to work for me lmao.. I didn’t even know it was that easy

    When I seen a pattern of a red crypto in the red but it always goes up, I just simply switched my money to the red stock and waited for it to raise up then switched it back to dia
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  14. #14
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    Originally Posted by TugOfPeace View Post
    Just an example; let's say I have $25k and decide to make $200/day my goal.

    If I monitored a stock like AAPL for example, it usually has a sizable enough daily variance. If I drop $25k in there (I'm aware this is a bad strategy, dropping a lot of capital for a small gain), and buy 218 shares @ $115, in order to make $200 I would just have to wait for an increase in share price to $116.

    That's hardly a big risk, of course many days I may end up losing, or I may end up holding a bag for a while due to emotions, but that's just an example. That's a strategy that could conceivably earn me $500/week.

    Now, scale that to an investment of $50k, $75k, $100k, etc. Then you start to see where the numbers add up over time.

    A gross oversimplification, but it illustrates my point
    I'm not sure what this has to do with me saying you don't need to wake up at 3am and be on your computer until closing bell to make $100/day.
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  15. #15
    Registered User TugOfPeace's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Heaney View Post
    I'm not sure what this has to do with me saying you don't need to wake up at 3am and be on your computer until closing bell to make $100/day.
    My comment wasn't addressed to you specifically, I was just building off what you had said.
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    Originally Posted by TugOfPeace View Post
    Just an example; let's say I have $25k and decide to make $200/day my goal.

    If I monitored a stock like AAPL for example, it usually has a sizable enough daily variance. If I drop $25k in there (I'm aware this is a questionable strategy, dropping a lot of capital for a small gain), and buy 218 shares @ $115, in order to make $200 I would just have to wait for an increase in share price to $116.

    That's hardly a big risk, of course many days I may end up losing, or I may end up holding a bag for a while due to emotions, but that's just an example. That's a strategy that could conceivably earn me $500/week.

    Now, scale that to an investment of $50k, $75k, $100k, etc. Then you start to see where the numbers add up over time.

    A gross oversimplification, but it illustrates my point
    Try it and report back.

    It's like people trying to take $200/day from the casino with 25k.

    Sure it'll work...........until it doesn't.
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    Originally Posted by Slamt View Post
    Try it and report back.

    It's like people trying to take $200/day from the casino with 25k.

    Sure it'll work...........until it doesn't.
    I have been on a smaller scale. It works.
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    Every beginner thinks they can be a successful day trader......until they realize they can't and they would have made more money by just holding
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    Originally Posted by Omnivium View Post
    Every beginner thinks they can be a successful day trader......until they realize they can't and they would have made more money by just holding
    Got it. I will go into it with the mindset of failing.
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    Originally Posted by Omnivium View Post
    Every beginner thinks they can be a successful day trader......until they realize they can't and they would have made more money by just holding
    The sad reality is that if you went all in on AMZN, TSLA and NVDA in March you'd have likely tripled your account without trading a single share in 7mnths.

    *went with popular stocks, obviously other stocks could have yielded even greater results*
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    Originally Posted by TugOfPeace View Post
    I have been on a smaller scale. It works.
    Now take 25k and try to make $200 from the casino per day, it'll work for a while too. Just takes that one full tilt.

    Answer to yourself honestly whether you have an actual edge or not in your system and back-tested so that it's actually useful in the long run.
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    Originally Posted by Slamt View Post
    Now take 25k and try to make $200 from the casino per day, it'll work for a while too. Just takes that one full tilt.

    Answer to yourself honestly whether you have an actual edge or not in your system and back-tested so that it's actually useful in the long run.
    If people had your attitude nobody would accomplish chit.

    Obviously I'm not going to clear $200/day.

    Looking at entry points, if I set my stop losses to $40/per trade I would have 5 chances to recognize a pattern or some other opportunity where there is upwards momentum and ride that to make my $200 gain. If I screw up 5 times, then I'm out $200 for the day. Over a week this may end up yielding a poverty $200 or a decent $1000 depending on my luck and trading strategy. Heck, I may even be negative some weeks.

    I think it's worth a shot and I'm going to try.
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    Originally Posted by TugOfPeace View Post
    If people had your attitude nobody would accomplish chit.

    Obviously I'm not going to clear $200/day.

    Looking at entry points, if I set my stop losses to $40/per trade I would have 5 chances to recognize a pattern or some other opportunity where there is upwards momentum and ride that to make my $200 gain. If I screw up 5 times, then I'm out $200 for the day. Over a week this may end up yielding a poverty $200 or a decent $1000 depending on my luck and trading strategy. Heck, I may even be negative some weeks.

    I think it's worth a shot and I'm going to try.
    What attitude are you talking about?

    I actually day trade for a living and I'm telling you things that you need to consider if you want to make it.

    Nevermind....

    Good luck with your 1:5 RR trades lol.
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    Originally Posted by Heaney View Post
    The sad reality is that if you went all in on AMZN, TSLA and NVDA in March you'd have likely tripled your account without trading a single share in 7mnths.

    *went with popular stocks, obviously other stocks could have yielded even greater results*
    Why does it have to be sad though? Let's put emotions and ego aside, and just do whatever makes the most money
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    Just have to be able to predict the future OP then easy money.
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    Originally Posted by Slamt View Post
    What attitude are you talking about?

    I actually day trade for a living and I'm telling you things that you need to consider if you want to make it.

    Nevermind....

    Good luck with your 1:5 RR trades lol.
    lmao. Did you see Tug's posts in the previous trading thread? bought peaks on everything and then panic sold the next day when it lost a little then was upset about missing out on gains a few days later. Like clockwork.
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    Originally Posted by TugOfPeace View Post
    I have been on a smaller scale. It works.
    Lol well then why are you asking? You seem to have it all worked out.

    Considering how emotional you are about your purchases, and how you have zero patience, I don’t see why this wouldn’t work perfectly.
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    Originally Posted by Heaney View Post
    You're not spending 12hrs per day when your goal is to make 100 dollars a day. Those are professional day traders who are trading 6 to 7 figures worth of securities per day spending 12hrs straight.
    You're right but the thread title is also "To make serious money". I'm assuming due to his posts on how he hates his career (Which is supposedly over 100K per year) he wants to scale trading into a full time gig.
    I was pointing out to him its hardly as easy as he's thinking. Or else everyone would just be balling out from day trading.





    Originally Posted by TugOfPeace View Post
    Just an example; let's say I have $25k and decide to make $200/day my goal.

    If I monitored a stock like AAPL for example, it usually has a sizable enough daily variance. If I drop $25k in there (I'm aware this is a questionable strategy, dropping a lot of capital for a small gain), and buy 218 shares @ $115, in order to make $200 I would just have to wait for an increase in share price to $116.

    That's hardly a big risk, of course many days I may end up losing, or I may end up holding a bag for a while due to emotions, but that's just an example. That's a strategy that could conceivably earn me $500/week.

    Now, scale that to an investment of $50k, $75k, $100k, etc. Then you start to see where the numbers add up over time.

    A gross oversimplification, but it illustrates my point

    Yes, that can work. But if you put 25K in at $115 per share and it drops below $100 per share for the next couple of years are you going to sell or hold an wait for it to rebound back up? At that point your not a day trader. Your trying to decide whether to hold the bag or cut your losses.


    See where it gets tricky? TSLA is currently at $414 per share. I guess I should have sold a few days ago at $442 and take my profits and now get back in at $414 right?

    Predicting the market or a stock in the short term isn't an easy thing to do. All data points towards buying and holding long term as the most successful form of investing.
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    ive been trading for a living for 6 years now, its not worth it, i would have made way more money starting a conventional business.

    Dont forget you are drawing out money to pay for living expenses too

    so if you have 500k and you make 25% a year thats only 125k minus taxes gives you a decent living but almost nothing left to re invest. Also edges come and die quickly. And this is if you have built up a 500k account.

    Dont fall into the trap of thinking you can trade for a living with a 50k account its a fools game , trust me.

    If you really want to do it, keep your job start small 25-50k and if you can double it in 3 years without a large draw down and have some real edge keep doing it. Then scale it slowly.

    I only made it because i made some large returns at the beginning and took loans out to trade. Which you should NEVER do

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    but of course you guys are going to go ahead and try. that's one of the ways in which those companies make money - off of you
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