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  1. #31
    Super Spreader desslok's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Right that's why i'm asking... another example would be people referring to things that aren't 'true' allergies as allergies...etc...

    The difference here though is that COVID is often compared to the traditional flu symptom-wise, whereas 'stomach flu' seems like an obvious catch-phrase for any kind of viral gastroenteritis. So it makes me wonder if the term 'flu' in relationship to COVID is used to try and lump it literally into the same category of virus, which it isn't.

    Like I wouldn't say "I have the flu" if I had a common cold, even if the symptoms were the same.... and many common colds ARE caused by coronaviruses.
    Right i think you nailed it. We’ve kind of been conditioned by commercials, drug companies and doctors etc to think we either have a cold or a flu, and the differences between the two and which medicines help with the symptoms of each.(ie antibiotics won’t help with xyz since its caused by a virus)
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  2. #32
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    I prefer higher quality sources. Anyway, with PCR tests the likelihood of false negatives is higher than false positives. It's in the paper I linked to. The implication is that the actual COVID death toll is likely higher than the death toll determined with PCR tests.

    If you prefer an easier read: https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/...-2020081020734

    PS. I'd be interested to see your answer to Adam's question. It's a good question.
    Flu, virus whatever

    I didn’t coin the phrase

    The White House called It the Chinese Flu so i go by that

    Write them and ask. I dunno why it’s called that nor care.

    I just want this hoax to end
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  3. #33
    Super Spreader desslok's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    The implication is that the actual COVID death toll is likely higher than the death toll determined with PCR tests.
    .
    Actually I highly doubt we will ever know an ACTUAL Covid death toll. We will only know a death toll of people who died from pre-existing conditions which were exacerbated by Covid.
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  4. #34
    Registered User Strawng's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Right that's why i'm asking... another example would be people referring to things that aren't 'true' allergies as allergies...etc...

    The difference here though is that COVID is often compared to the traditional flu symptom-wise, whereas 'stomach flu' seems like an obvious catch-phrase for any kind of viral gastroenteritis. So it makes me wonder if the term 'flu' in relationship to COVID is used to try and lump it literally into the same category of virus, which it isn't.

    Like I wouldn't say "I have the flu" if I had a common cold, even if the symptoms were the same.... and many common colds ARE caused by coronaviruses.
    "Flu" is a common term for any sort of sickness...stomach flu, keto flu, Jagermeister flu, man flu, etc. Given that Covid is a novel virus that's more severe than the common cold and has a lot of symptomatic overlap with the flu, it makes sense that people are calling it a "flu". I know it's not technically a "flu virus" (influenza), but I don't think people calling it a flu is necessarily an attempt to downplay its severity.

    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    Actually I highly doubt we will ever know an ACTUAL Covid death toll. We will only know a death toll of people who died from pre-existing conditions which were exacerbated by Covid.
    Also this. The Scientific American article's info was all good, but the Covid death toll is inflated by people with chronic illnesses who also either caught covid or happened to die with the virus. It's not just a question of false positive or negative tests. 70% of all US Covid deaths are people above the age of 70: https://www.pnas.org/content/117/36/22035.
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  5. #35
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    "Flu" is a common term for any sort of sickness...stomach flu, keto flu, Jagermeister flu, man flu, etc. Given that Covid is a novel virus that's more severe than the common cold and has a lot of symptomatic overlap with the flu, it makes sense that people are calling it a "flu". I know it's not technically a "flu virus" (influenza), but I don't think people calling it a flu is necessarily an attempt to downplay its severity.


    Also this. The Scientific American article's info was all good, but the Covid death toll is inflated by people with chronic illnesses who also either caught covid or happened to die with the virus. It's not just a question of false positive or negative tests. 70% of all US Covid deaths are people above the age of 70: https://www.pnas.org/content/117/36/22035.
    Bingo.

    Highly inflated to create unnecessary fear over nothing to enforce tyrannical BS worldwide
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  6. #36
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    "Flu" is a common term for any sort of sickness...stomach flu, keto flu, Jagermeister flu, man flu, etc. Given that Covid is a novel virus that's more severe than the common cold and has a lot of symptomatic overlap with the flu, it makes sense that people are calling it a "flu". I know it's not technically a "flu virus" (influenza), but I don't think people calling it a flu is necessarily an attempt to downplay its severity.
    Right, it seems that 'flu' has become a catch-all phrase for any illness causing flu-like symptoms... but in the case of stomach flu, Keto flu, etc, those are obviously hyperbole/figures of speech because their cause is clearly not going to be mis-diagnosed as genuine influenza.

    In the case of COVID, not only is it a viral contagion but it also produces many of the same symptoms, so calling it a 'flu' seems a bit on-the-nose especially when there's a lot of controversy in politics and public perception around it.

    I'm not saying it matters per se, but it does seem like a means to almost gaslight what is in fact a specific virus/type of virus, much like influenza is. Just a thought ;o)

    In general I find the devolution of politics and science down to name-calling and social-media memes to be utterly pointless and counterproductive... we spend so much time fighting back and forth, calling names, coming up with clever turns of phrase... I wish we could just state things what they are, stop with ad hominem attacks against people, and remain objective... it's so painful to see grown men slap-fighting like children about shyt that doesn't matter.

    Tell me your policies... let that be the end of it.
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  7. #37
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    Actually I highly doubt we will ever know an ACTUAL Covid death toll. We will only know a death toll of people who died from pre-existing conditions which were exacerbated by Covid.
    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    the Covid death toll is inflated by people with chronic illnesses who also either caught covid or happened to die with the virus.
    Even if what you are saying is 100% correct (I don't think it is), the same would apply to other diseases like the flu and diabetes and other causes of death.

    Consider the example where a 70 year old male alone in his house climbs a ladder and gets a heart attack while he's on top of the ladder. He falls down, cracking his skull open. Cause of death would probably be ruled as accidental fall, not heart attack.

    On the topic of COVID deaths, the WHO has strict definitions on what is one and what is not. If you die while having the virus it's not necessarily a COVID death: https://www.who.int/classifications/...h_COVID-19.pdf

    The situation in the US might be somewhat different but I don't consider that all that relevant because most developed countries in Europe show similar trends in COVID death toll. To me that's a clear indication that we're dealing with some serious here. YMMV. And only focussing on deaths is very limited. COVID can do a lot of other nasty things besides killing you.

    And while there may be reasons that the actual death toll is lower, there are also plenty of reasons to believe the actual death toll is higher.

    Here's a few reasons why:

    1. I already mentioned that the likelihood of false negatives with PCR tests is higher. Some credible sources suggest it can be as high as 37%.

    2. Many people who die of COVID have died outside of hospitals and did not get tested. Their death may have been ruled of natural causes or something else.

    3. A substantial number of early deaths this year were likely misidentified as influenza or described only as pneumonia.
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  8. #38
    Registered User Ghawk21's Avatar
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    I also dislike how the number 1 argument is "they're all over 70 with co-morbidities, COVID didn't kill them, XYZ did." What if person X, age 70, with diabetes, pre-X heart condition etc was going to live to be 85. That's 15 extra years with his friends and family. All you're being asked to do is wear a mask and try to keep distance with people/avoid large gatherings. That's not much to ask.

    As a healthy 29 year old, I'm not worried about dying either. I am fairly concerned with the possible lasting health problems to my heart and lungs. Hell for all we know our average life expectancy could be being reduced as we know it. Won't know anything on that topic for years to come. So again, wearing a simple mask( and only when indoors and you can't avoid people) is really not much to ask.
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  9. #39
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    70% of all US Covid deaths are people above the age of 70: https://www.pnas.org/content/117/36/22035.
    This applies to most causes of death. About 80% of people who die of heart disease are age 65 or older.

    Even for something like bicycles deaths; in Netherlands 60% are over age 70.

    Also relevant: a 70 year old male today still has another ~15 years life expectancy. https://www.ssa.gov/oact/population/longevity.html
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ghawk21 View Post
    All you're being asked to do is wear a mask and try to keep distance with people/avoid large gatherings. That's not much to ask.
    .
    I'm not an anti-mask person in all scenarios at all, but this statement is actually an over-simplification of the issue with masks in some areas.

    I'm not sure where you're living, but in some states/cities, masks are being used pretty dangerously as justifications for violence/hate against those not wearing them EVEN when they're alone, outdoors VERY far from people, etc.

    In fact, I know in places in California, it goes far beyond that in that the government is fining/arresting people for non-compliance even if they don't technically break any laws.

    Furthermore, it's not JUST the masks... businesses are forced to shut down and leave people broke, the regulations are actually WILDLY inconsistent (you can go to a restaurant and eat INSIDE without a mask on, but you can't go to a gym...), and frankly the whole mask vs. anti-mask is again being used as a political talking point and a method to pit people against eachother.

    So while I agree, in theory it sounds totally harmless, sometimes the execution is far from it.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    I'm not an anti-mask person in all scenarios at all, but this statement is actually an over-simplification of the issue with masks in some areas.

    I'm not sure where you're living, but in some states/cities, masks are being used pretty dangerously as justifications for violence/hate against those not wearing them EVEN when they're alone, outdoors VERY far from people, etc.

    In fact, I know in places in California, it goes far beyond that in that the government is fining/arresting people for non-compliance even if they don't technically break any laws.

    Furthermore, it's not JUST the masks... businesses are forced to shut down and leave people broke, the regulations are actually WILDLY inconsistent (you can go to a restaurant and eat INSIDE without a mask on, but you can't go to a gym...), and frankly the whole mask vs. anti-mask is again being used as a political talking point and a method to pit people against eachother.

    So while I agree, in theory it sounds totally harmless, sometimes the execution is far from it.
    Yea I agree, the rules and regs being wildy inconsistent is a big problem. We have similar issues up here in Canada. I was more so commenting on the wearing a mask part of things and avoiding large gatherings/parties. We have a thing up here where people can claim medical exemption without proof in order to not wear one and businesses need to accommodate them via curbsite pick-up/delivery or let them in with no questions asked. Of course, people who just don't want to wear one abuse this and many people are aware of that and it causes issues within communities and is really dividing people. I honestly don't know how to strike a balance between everything, but that's above my paygrade and the people being paid to figure it out are failing miserably on all levels. That being said, the part about asking people to wear masks and not attend large group gatherings shouldn't be up for debate. I can get through a leg day at the gym with a mask on, shouldn't be difficult to shop or converse with friends with one on.
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    I'm having a lot of respect for the way our government in The Netherlands is handling it at the moment. Unlike UK, Germany and Belgium there's no full lock down here. Bars and restaurants can still do takeaway and delivery. Shops are still open. They decided to keep gyms open as well because, they said, it's important for the people to be able to exercise. The number of infections seems to be steadily declining now. Last week 11000, today under 8000. Maybe I'm cheering too early but we'll see.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    I'm having a lot of respect for the way our government in The Netherlands is handling it at the moment. Unlike UK, Germany and Belgium there's no full lock down here. Bars and restaurants can still do takeaway and delivery. Shops are still open. They decided to keep gyms open as well because, they said, it's important for the people to be able to exercise. The number of infections seems to be steadily declining now. Last week 11000, today under 8000. Maybe I'm cheering too early but we'll see.
    Probably a result of less hyper-political people and a focus on community. In the US, religion, politics, and money tend to dictate much of the decisions that are made.... ends up worse for everyone.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Probably a result of less hyper-political people and a focus on community. In the US, religion, politics, and money tend to dictate much of the decisions that are made.... ends up worse for everyone.
    Yeah here in California there is no rhyme or reason to why places are opened or closed or partially open. You can go to a bar to get alcohol but you MUST order food on same tab. Bars that don’t serve food have to pair up with food trucks. I can go to a crowded walmart full of the sketchiest people in the country, but several other places are closed or partially closed. Its kind of a zoo(which is open but only outdoor areas). I have to laugh at some of the control the governor is trying to impose. The rules he is trying to put on peoples thanksgiving celebrations is actually pretty hysterical.

    And i fully understand the scientific reasons behind artificially inflating the Covid “deaths”( assuming people are going to follow WHO guidelines is pretty funny). Non-politically, having this pandemic that is allegedly killing hundreds of thousands of people is a great way to get funding and grants. If I am a researcher asking for grant money and I want to research if twinkies build muscle I’ll get laughed out of the finance office. If I say I want to research a cure/vaccine for this new highly lethal virus that you have to get tested for to find out if you have it, then the blank checks come out and you are asked how many millions of dollars you need.
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    And i fully understand the scientific reasons behind artificially inflating the Covid “deaths”( assuming people are going to follow WHO guidelines is pretty funny).
    Is that meant to be a reply to me? If so, I didn't make that assumption, I explicitly said that the situation in the US may be different.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Is that meant to be a reply to me? If so, I didn't make that assumption, I explicitly said that the situation in the US may be different.
    No, just in general. I am fully aware that corruption happens in every part of the economy here. Just saying I understand why and that there is a scientific reason, not just political reasons as some people like to think.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Is that meant to be a reply to me? If so, I didn't make that assumption, I explicitly said that the situation in the US may be different.
    It is. My gf is a nurse here in LA and the doctors she works with are constantly complaining about how the hospitals are falsely inflating the covid deaths.
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    It is. My gf is a nurse here in LA and the doctors she works with are constantly complaining about how the hospitals are falsely inflating the covid deaths.
    Makes perfect sense for hospitals to do that, as the monetary benefits are substantial. Read this, its a no-brainer:
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...us/3000638001/
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    Makes perfect sense for hospitals to do that, as the monetary benefits are substantial. Read this, its a no-brainer:
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...us/3000638001/
    But that's the hospitals, not the doctors... doctors aren't necessarily getting pressure to call deaths COVID if they're not.

    I mean my dad has been an ER physician for decades, and I can pretty much guarantee he wouldn't just call a COVID death because the hospital told him to lie about it....
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    But that's the hospitals, not the doctors... doctors aren't necessarily getting pressure to call deaths COVID if they're not.

    I mean my dad has been an ER physician for decades, and I can pretty much guarantee he wouldn't just call a COVID death because the hospital told him to lie about it....
    The doctors my gf works with are angry about it. They're not reporting the deaths, but they know what's going on.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    But that's the hospitals, not the doctors... doctors aren't necessarily getting pressure to call deaths COVID if they're not.

    I mean my dad has been an ER physician for decades, and I can pretty much guarantee he wouldn't just call a COVID death because the hospital told him to lie about it....

    Not sure about your dad’s hospital, but many don’t have the doctors fill out the death certificates. The doctor may announce/document time of death, but then administration/coroner do the rest, then doc signs/confirms later.
    Last edited by desslok; 11-03-2020 at 02:33 PM.
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    Not sure about your dad’s hospital, but many don’t have the doctors fill out the death certificates. The doctor may announce/document time of death, but then administration/coroner do the rest, then doc signs/confirms later.
    Yeah that's true
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    Yeah, when I had patients die (in my residency days, now I'm outpatient and thankfully this isn't an issue) the doctors filled out a death packet but not the death certificate.

    COVID-19 is definitely not a hoax though. It can be acknowledged that it's very serious and case counts/hospitalizations/deaths are rising while also acknowledging a lockdown and all of the negative effects that come with it is not necessarily the best solution. As others have said this topic has become so politicized it's difficult to discuss.
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    Yeah, when I had patients die (in my residency days, now I'm outpatient and thankfully this isn't an issue) the doctors filled out a death packet but not the death certificate.

    COVID-19 is definitely not a hoax though. It can be acknowledged that it's very serious and case counts/hospitalizations/deaths are rising while also acknowledging a lockdown and all of the negative effects that come with it is not necessarily the best solution. As others have said this topic has become so politicized it's difficult to discuss.
    Agreed 100%. Maybe it’s just wishful thinking, but I’m literally praying & just hoping the politicization of everything dies down after this election.
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    Agreed 100%. Maybe it’s just wishful thinking, but I’m literally praying & just hoping the politicization of everything dies down after this election.
    Same here. The problem is there is no end in sight. The only real “end” i see is if its a “get once and immune” virus, then once everyone gets it, only then will we all be immune. But i have a heard a couple cases of people getting it twice, and recently read that your immunity “wears off” after some time, but its all unknown for sure. So we are really just trying to delay the inevitable. I can see the point of trying to avoid hospitals from getting overwhelmed, but now that they are totally underwhelmed we should ease restrictions to get hospitals up more near capacity. That way we can get past this thing quicker and try to start the slow economic recovery. Thats gonna be the REAL killer.
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    Same here. The problem is there is no end in sight. The only real “end” i see is if its a “get once and immune” virus, then once everyone gets it, only then will we all be immune. But i have a heard a couple cases of people getting it twice, and recently read that your immunity “wears off” after some time, but its all unknown for sure. So we are really just trying to delay the inevitable. I can see the point of trying to avoid hospitals from getting overwhelmed, but now that they are totally underwhelmed we should ease restrictions to get hospitals up more near capacity. That way we can get past this thing quicker and try to start the slow economic recovery. Thats gonna be the REAL killer.
    Why would you want people in the hospital ?
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Why would you want people in the hospital ?
    Actually a lot of hospitals are actually hurting financially because people without covid aren't going to the hospital anymore...because they're afraid to get covid lol

    This contributes to their incentive for over-counting covid deaths. Still, with flu season here, I would like a VERY safe margin of error for hospitals to not be near capacity.
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    It is. My gf is a nurse here in LA and the doctors she works with are constantly complaining about how the hospitals are falsely inflating the covid deaths.
    I've been reading articles like these. They seem to make reasonable claims.

    Is the Coronavirus Death Tally Inflated? Here’s Why Experts Say No
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...eath-toll.html

    Trump Suggests Virus Death Count Is Inflated. Most Experts Doubt It
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/22/u...eath-toll.html
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    I've been reading articles like these. They seem to make reasonable claims.

    Is the Coronavirus Death Tally Inflated? Here’s Why Experts Say No
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...eath-toll.html

    Trump Suggests Virus Death Count Is Inflated. Most Experts Doubt It
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/22/u...eath-toll.html
    I’m just going by what the doctors said. Also, FWIW, NYTimes is exceptionally biased. I think this article gives a more nuanced view: https://www.emsworld.com/news/122524...19-death-count. Even if it’s not actually inflated for profit, I think this is a messy business and the full story is impossible to know at the moment.
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