Just saw Layne post a video on this one:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2771095
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10-07-2020, 12:42 PM #1
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10-07-2020, 12:53 PM #2
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10-07-2020, 01:09 PM #3
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10-07-2020, 01:13 PM #4
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10-07-2020, 01:34 PM #5
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10-07-2020, 01:39 PM #6
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10-07-2020, 01:49 PM #7
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Unusually long study with over 100 participants
No calorie/macro targets given to participants - the reason being to test the supposed satiety benefits
Results
- no significant difference in fat loss
- (non-significantly) greater reduction in RMR in IF participants
- no difference in health markers
- significantly larger muscle loss in IF participants (65% was LBM compared to 20-30% in the other group!)
- calories measured retrospectively - and they were similar across groups but protein not measured
The researcher came in with an IF bias but on the strength of these data, he stopped doing it...
You can't make up for missing a protein feeding by eating it later...
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10-07-2020, 01:59 PM #8
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10-07-2020, 02:22 PM #9
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10-07-2020, 02:41 PM #10
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One thing to keep in mind here, too, is that in Obese persons the LBM loss may not be nearly as much actual contractile tissue as it would be in a leaner person who lifts.
Obese persons will also have more total body water, food in their gut, stored glycogen (most likely), etc.
LBM isn't the same as pure muscle, but it's reasonable to assume it's not ideal.
Also, tho, people who lift by default will retain more LBM because lifting in itself helps spare your muscle tissue while you lose weight, especially if you're eating adequate protein."When I die, I hope it's early in the morning so I don't have to go to work that day for no reason"
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10-07-2020, 02:46 PM #11
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10-07-2020, 02:55 PM #12
- Join Date: Mar 2006
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10-07-2020, 10:49 PM #13
One caveat: no resistance training.
But yeah IF isn't optimal for muscle retention, even with RE.Recommended science based fitness & nutrition information:
Alan Aragon https://alanaragon.com/
Brad Schoenfeld http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/
James Krieger https://weightology.net/
Jorn Trommelen http://www.nutritiontactics.com/
Eric Helms & Team3DMJ https://3dmusclejourney.com/
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10-08-2020, 12:20 AM #14
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That is true and there may be factors that compel IF group to consume less protein - but I wonder how likely that is since typical breakfasts are often low protein meals.
I guess there is a limit to how many features of IF you can test in one go. In a large enough sample size, the independent factors like protein consumption and resistance exercise should even out between groups. In simple terms, the signal to noise ratio improves with sampling size.
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10-08-2020, 12:31 AM #15
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10-08-2020, 12:55 AM #16
You know my last cut in 2016, I felt like I lost way TOO much LBM and I was doing IF, now it could also have been because I did very little cardio and my volume decreased a lot, but since then I do not advocate IF, instead I find it better to eat small meals throughout the day, but all in all, my data is only anecdotal. So this cut in 2020 is 16 weeks compared to the 12 weeks I did in 2016,
in 2016 I believe I lost about 15lbs, in 14 weeks(2020) I have lost roughly 13lbs, eating small meals throughout the day and walking a min of 6 miles a day, was 8, but 6 seems to be my sweet spot lol I feel like I've lost a very little lbm.FS/ S/ OHP/ B/ DL
120/150/70/100/180 =KG
I don't go to the gym anymore so above stats are useless.
Only do weighted calastentics in the comfort of my own home!
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=173620211&page=138 go here if you want an estimation on your bf%
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10-08-2020, 05:43 AM #17
Not only are they insufferable but I think because Layne goes out of his way to bash their cult following idles they also go out of their way to bombard his comment sections. Same thing happens when he posts about keto, vegan, carnivore etc and its very apparent they neither read or watch the actual posts/studies.
Bench: 365
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Refrigerator Lover
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10-08-2020, 08:56 AM #18
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10-08-2020, 09:59 AM #19
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10-08-2020, 01:00 PM #20
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10-08-2020, 01:03 PM #21
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10-08-2020, 01:25 PM #22
It honestly can't die soon enough. I even hear friends and co-workers boasting about how small their "feeding window" is. I bought into the whole IF fad back when Martin Berkhan was first doing his thing and I was never a big breakfast eater, but I actually noticed worse muscle loss with IF despite seemingly all other factors being equal. I also was noticeably more sluggish during fasting hours, so I'm sure my TDEE was lower. I think perhaps fasting's a better wight loss tool for people who have low levels of physical activity all day, and I'd like to see whether there are better results for appetite control or weight loss in a totally sedentary population vs a more active one.
On a slightly related note, where the hell is riptmarine?!
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10-08-2020, 01:42 PM #23
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There's definitely an odd air of pride emanating from people following a fasting protocol...
They seem to brag about how little they can eat... meanwhile I'm sitting here thinking, "why would anyone ENJOY eating less"? Does food not taste good to some people?
"Oh good, I only have to eat once a day... I sure was getting tired of receiving pleasure from taste"
I am of course talking about a situation without some kind of disorder involved."When I die, I hope it's early in the morning so I don't have to go to work that day for no reason"
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10-08-2020, 01:59 PM #24
Completely agreed. I hate eating less often because I love eating, and I hate eating huge meals because they leave me bloated and tired. It's the worst of both worlds imo. I think people generally tend to take pride in hurting themselves under the "no pain, no gain" fallacy. There's just some sort of innate human feeling that inflicting pain will reap rewards, even if it clearly doesn't. It's like the people who boast about how little they sleep. Unless you're an extreme genetic outlier, continually sleeping less than 6 hours a night ain't "boosting your productivity" for chit. It's actually quite harmful for both short-term mental performance and long-term physical health. Yet, I constantly hear boasting from people who "only slept 3 hours but feel great".
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10-08-2020, 02:06 PM #25
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Couldn't agree more.
This also comes into play with people bragging about how MUCH they can eat, too.
In my opinion, whether someone needs very little or a ton of food in order to be full/satisfied makes no difference to me at all... and actually due to my ED history, when people brag moreso on the fasting side it just spins up all kinds of bad memories from my past. I used to get personal satisfaction from knowing I was 'holding back' and 'controlling' myself more than everyone else. Nowadays such things literally trigger my fight or flight response... I get super anxious now if I get too hungry and I just start to hate life, hah!
At the same time being TOO full, especially on particular foods, makes me feel totally immobile and sluggish... but there's a buffer of food volume where I feel awesome, so I just stick to that.
TBH this is why I just can't see myself ever "cutting" via deliberate food restriction ever again. I don't think I have it in me anymore."When I die, I hope it's early in the morning so I don't have to go to work that day for no reason"
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10-08-2020, 08:01 PM #26
A 5 year google trend word search mostly corroborates this, except carnivore seems to be holding steady. Ketogenic had a strong peak through 2017-18 and decline since, as expected, although oddly enough "keto" is still somewhat steady after declining from a similar peak.
Which makes me wonder what will come after carnivore. Obviously we've seen attempts with vegan and low protein from "Game Changers" and the like, although from a body comp and fat loss perspective it doesn't seem particularly advantageous, at least when compared to other whole foods based approaches.
Regardless of what term you search, there are big EKG spikes right at the start of each year. People are so predictable. Lol
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10-08-2020, 09:32 PM #27
+1 on the not wanting to get too hungry or cut anymore thing. I'm pretty sure getting too hungry puts my body in fight-or-flight mode because my body "remembers" the trauma of starving and won't let me do it again without a massive pushback. The body keeps score of traumas, physical and mental, so I think starving for someone like you or me is no different.
In that same vein, I HATE feeling "too full" and never could relate to the people who bragged how much food they could put away. Not everybody's cut out for Eriktheelectric-style food challenges, perhaps not even Erik (but that's a whole nother point of contention lol). While I admit that chit's damn entertaining & I check out his challenges from time-to-time, I don't think needing huge amounts of food to feel full is something to boast about, particularly for people who aren't getting paid to do food challenges or whatever. Matter-of-fact, having a giant stomach capacity like that sounds terrible.
I personally blame Joe Rogan for keeping carnivore alive. He and all his hunting/army buddies talk about their "insane energy levels" on it. He make it a talking point at least every week. I usually tap out after about 30 minutes nowadays because I'm growing tired of his constant broscience & "enlightened everyman" schtick, but he brings carnivore up all the damn time. He also likes to prattle on about IF.
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10-08-2020, 09:38 PM #28
If people wanted to use IF, I would only use it on my fats/carbs while making sure i spread protein in about 4-5 feedings throughout day
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10-08-2020, 09:38 PM #29
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10-08-2020, 10:35 PM #30
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