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  1. #1
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Intermittent Fasting Leads to Muscle Loss: Study

    Just saw Layne post a video on this one:

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2771095
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    Registered User Dranseth's Avatar
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    Did I read this correctly? Did they use a bioimpedance scale for the the basis of the study?
    Last edited by Dranseth; 10-07-2020 at 02:00 PM.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dranseth View Post
    Did I read this correctly? Did they use a bioimpedance scale for the the basis of the study?
    I didn't see that in there, but I don't have the full text.
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    Registered User Dranseth's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    I didn't see that in there, but I don't have the full text.
    Neither do I. Just made a baseless assumption.

    Under Design, Setting, and Participants, it states, "Participants received a Bluetooth scale."

    Are you talking about Layne Norton? What did he say about it? I have him on Instagram but don't see anything.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dranseth View Post
    Neither do I. Just made a baseless assumption.

    Under Design, Setting, and Participants, it states, "Participants received a Bluetooth scale."

    Are you talking about Layne Norton? What did he say about it? I have him on Instagram but don't see anything.
    It's on his youtube.

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    Moderator SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dranseth View Post
    Neither do I. Just made a baseless assumption.

    Under Design, Setting, and Participants, it states, "Participants received a Bluetooth scale."

    Are you talking about Layne Norton? What did he say about it? I have him on Instagram but don't see anything.
    bluetooth =/= BIA

    It's probably a food scale that synchs with their calorie counting app
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    Unusually long study with over 100 participants

    No calorie/macro targets given to participants - the reason being to test the supposed satiety benefits

    Results
    - no significant difference in fat loss
    - (non-significantly) greater reduction in RMR in IF participants
    - no difference in health markers
    - significantly larger muscle loss in IF participants (65% was LBM compared to 20-30% in the other group!)
    - calories measured retrospectively - and they were similar across groups but protein not measured

    The researcher came in with an IF bias but on the strength of these data, he stopped doing it...

    You can't make up for missing a protein feeding by eating it later...
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    Unusually long study with over 100 participants

    No calorie/macro targets given to participants - the reason being to test the supposed satiety benefits

    Results
    - no significant difference in fat loss
    - (non-significantly) greater reduction in RMR in IF participants
    - no difference in health markers
    - significantly larger muscle loss in IF participants (65% was LBM compared to 20-30% in the other group!)
    - calories measured retrospectively - and they were similar across groups but protein not measured

    The researcher came in with an IF bias but on the strength of these data, he stopped doing it...

    You can't make up for missing a protein feeding by eating it later...
    On spread
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    Registered User Dranseth's Avatar
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    Definitely going to change the way that I cut moving forward. I inadvertently IF by skipping breakfast when I am cutting. Thank you both for this!
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dranseth View Post
    Definitely going to change the way that I cut moving forward. I inadvertently IF by skipping breakfast when I am cutting. Thank you both for this!
    One thing to keep in mind here, too, is that in Obese persons the LBM loss may not be nearly as much actual contractile tissue as it would be in a leaner person who lifts.

    Obese persons will also have more total body water, food in their gut, stored glycogen (most likely), etc.

    LBM isn't the same as pure muscle, but it's reasonable to assume it's not ideal.

    Also, tho, people who lift by default will retain more LBM because lifting in itself helps spare your muscle tissue while you lose weight, especially if you're eating adequate protein.
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    Registered User Dranseth's Avatar
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    It is also very difficult to draw conclusions when the protein intake was not controlled or monitored. Nonetheless, the results are very interesting.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dranseth View Post
    It is also very difficult to draw conclusions when the protein intake was not controlled or monitored. Nonetheless, the results are very interesting.
    Yeah I think the big thing to keep in mind is just that IF will never HELP you retain muscle if other factors are controlled for... it's always going to be better to have evenly spaced meals if possible.

    The degree of benefit is up for debate.
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    One caveat: no resistance training.

    But yeah IF isn't optimal for muscle retention, even with RE.
    Recommended science based fitness & nutrition information:
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    Originally Posted by Dranseth View Post
    It is also very difficult to draw conclusions when the protein intake was not controlled or monitored. Nonetheless, the results are very interesting.
    That is true and there may be factors that compel IF group to consume less protein - but I wonder how likely that is since typical breakfasts are often low protein meals.

    I guess there is a limit to how many features of IF you can test in one go. In a large enough sample size, the independent factors like protein consumption and resistance exercise should even out between groups. In simple terms, the signal to noise ratio improves with sampling size.
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    The comment section on that website. SMH. Fasting fans are stubborn.

    '16 hours wasn't long enough. 18 hours would have done the trick.'
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    You know my last cut in 2016, I felt like I lost way TOO much LBM and I was doing IF, now it could also have been because I did very little cardio and my volume decreased a lot, but since then I do not advocate IF, instead I find it better to eat small meals throughout the day, but all in all, my data is only anecdotal. So this cut in 2020 is 16 weeks compared to the 12 weeks I did in 2016,

    in 2016 I believe I lost about 15lbs, in 14 weeks(2020) I have lost roughly 13lbs, eating small meals throughout the day and walking a min of 6 miles a day, was 8, but 6 seems to be my sweet spot lol I feel like I've lost a very little lbm.
    FS/ S/ OHP/ B/ DL
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    I don't go to the gym anymore so above stats are useless.

    Only do weighted calastentics in the comfort of my own home!

    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=173620211&page=138 go here if you want an estimation on your bf%
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    The comment section on that website. SMH. Fasting fans are stubborn.

    '16 hours wasn't long enough. 18 hours would have done the trick.'
    Not only are they insufferable but I think because Layne goes out of his way to bash their cult following idles they also go out of their way to bombard his comment sections. Same thing happens when he posts about keto, vegan, carnivore etc and its very apparent they neither read or watch the actual posts/studies.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    The comment section on that website. SMH. Fasting fans are stubborn.

    '16 hours wasn't long enough. 18 hours would have done the trick.'
    LOLZ. Probably should've keto'd harder too. Or put more coconut and mct oil in their morning coffee.

    Another death nail for the keto and IF cult. Question is, what will be the next trend to replace it?
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    Originally Posted by broganoff View Post
    LOLZ. Probably should've keto'd harder too. Or put more coconut and mct oil in their morning coffee.

    Another death nail for the keto and IF cult. Question is, what will be the next trend to replace it?
    Carnivore already has
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    Originally Posted by WolfRose7 View Post
    Carnivore already has
    Yes, you're right, although that's almost a subgroup of Keto by default.
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    It seems like the keto and carnivore fads are dying off rather quickly. Can't say the same about IF.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    It seems like the keto and carnivore fads are dying off rather quickly. Can't say the same about IF.
    It honestly can't die soon enough. I even hear friends and co-workers boasting about how small their "feeding window" is. I bought into the whole IF fad back when Martin Berkhan was first doing his thing and I was never a big breakfast eater, but I actually noticed worse muscle loss with IF despite seemingly all other factors being equal. I also was noticeably more sluggish during fasting hours, so I'm sure my TDEE was lower. I think perhaps fasting's a better wight loss tool for people who have low levels of physical activity all day, and I'd like to see whether there are better results for appetite control or weight loss in a totally sedentary population vs a more active one.

    On a slightly related note, where the hell is riptmarine?!
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    It honestly can't die soon enough. I even hear friends and co-workers boasting about how small their "feeding window" is.
    There's definitely an odd air of pride emanating from people following a fasting protocol...

    They seem to brag about how little they can eat... meanwhile I'm sitting here thinking, "why would anyone ENJOY eating less"? Does food not taste good to some people?

    "Oh good, I only have to eat once a day... I sure was getting tired of receiving pleasure from taste"

    I am of course talking about a situation without some kind of disorder involved.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    There's definitely an odd air of pride emanating from people following a fasting protocol...

    They seem to brag about how little they can eat... meanwhile I'm sitting here thinking, "why would anyone ENJOY eating less"? Does food not taste good to some people?

    "Oh good, I only have to eat once a day... I sure was getting tired of receiving pleasure from taste"

    I am of course talking about a situation without some kind of disorder involved.
    Completely agreed. I hate eating less often because I love eating, and I hate eating huge meals because they leave me bloated and tired. It's the worst of both worlds imo. I think people generally tend to take pride in hurting themselves under the "no pain, no gain" fallacy. There's just some sort of innate human feeling that inflicting pain will reap rewards, even if it clearly doesn't. It's like the people who boast about how little they sleep. Unless you're an extreme genetic outlier, continually sleeping less than 6 hours a night ain't "boosting your productivity" for chit. It's actually quite harmful for both short-term mental performance and long-term physical health. Yet, I constantly hear boasting from people who "only slept 3 hours but feel great".
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    Completely agreed. I hate eating less often because I love eating, and I hate eating huge meals because they leave me bloated and tired. It's the worst of both worlds imo. I think people generally tend to take pride in hurting themselves under the "no pain, no gain" fallacy. There's just some sort of innate human feeling that inflicting pain will reap rewards, even if it clearly doesn't. It's like the people who boast about how little they sleep. Unless you're an extreme genetic outlier, continually sleeping less than 6 hours a night ain't "boosting your productivity" for chit. It's actually quite harmful for both short-term mental performance and long-term physical health. Yet, I constantly hear boasting from people who "only slept 3 hours but feel great".
    Couldn't agree more.

    This also comes into play with people bragging about how MUCH they can eat, too.

    In my opinion, whether someone needs very little or a ton of food in order to be full/satisfied makes no difference to me at all... and actually due to my ED history, when people brag moreso on the fasting side it just spins up all kinds of bad memories from my past. I used to get personal satisfaction from knowing I was 'holding back' and 'controlling' myself more than everyone else. Nowadays such things literally trigger my fight or flight response... I get super anxious now if I get too hungry and I just start to hate life, hah!

    At the same time being TOO full, especially on particular foods, makes me feel totally immobile and sluggish... but there's a buffer of food volume where I feel awesome, so I just stick to that.

    TBH this is why I just can't see myself ever "cutting" via deliberate food restriction ever again. I don't think I have it in me anymore.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    It seems like the keto and carnivore fads are dying off rather quickly. Can't say the same about IF.
    A 5 year google trend word search mostly corroborates this, except carnivore seems to be holding steady. Ketogenic had a strong peak through 2017-18 and decline since, as expected, although oddly enough "keto" is still somewhat steady after declining from a similar peak.

    Which makes me wonder what will come after carnivore. Obviously we've seen attempts with vegan and low protein from "Game Changers" and the like, although from a body comp and fat loss perspective it doesn't seem particularly advantageous, at least when compared to other whole foods based approaches.

    Regardless of what term you search, there are big EKG spikes right at the start of each year. People are so predictable. Lol
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Couldn't agree more.

    This also comes into play with people bragging about how MUCH they can eat, too.

    In my opinion, whether someone needs very little or a ton of food in order to be full/satisfied makes no difference to me at all... and actually due to my ED history, when people brag moreso on the fasting side it just spins up all kinds of bad memories from my past. I used to get personal satisfaction from knowing I was 'holding back' and 'controlling' myself more than everyone else. Nowadays such things literally trigger my fight or flight response... I get super anxious now if I get too hungry and I just start to hate life, hah!

    At the same time being TOO full, especially on particular foods, makes me feel totally immobile and sluggish... but there's a buffer of food volume where I feel awesome, so I just stick to that.

    TBH this is why I just can't see myself ever "cutting" via deliberate food restriction ever again. I don't think I have it in me anymore.
    +1 on the not wanting to get too hungry or cut anymore thing. I'm pretty sure getting too hungry puts my body in fight-or-flight mode because my body "remembers" the trauma of starving and won't let me do it again without a massive pushback. The body keeps score of traumas, physical and mental, so I think starving for someone like you or me is no different.

    In that same vein, I HATE feeling "too full" and never could relate to the people who bragged how much food they could put away. Not everybody's cut out for Eriktheelectric-style food challenges, perhaps not even Erik (but that's a whole nother point of contention lol). While I admit that chit's damn entertaining & I check out his challenges from time-to-time, I don't think needing huge amounts of food to feel full is something to boast about, particularly for people who aren't getting paid to do food challenges or whatever. Matter-of-fact, having a giant stomach capacity like that sounds terrible.
    Originally Posted by broganoff View Post
    A 5 year google trend word search mostly corroborates this, except carnivore seems to be holding steady. Ketogenic had a strong peak through 2017-18 and decline since, as expected, although oddly enough "keto" is still somewhat steady after declining from a similar peak.

    Which makes me wonder what will come after carnivore. Obviously we've seen attempts with vegan and low protein from "Game Changers" and the like, although from a body comp and fat loss perspective it doesn't seem particularly advantageous, at least when compared to other whole foods based approaches.

    Regardless of what term you search, there are big EKG spikes right at the start of each year. People are so predictable. Lol
    I personally blame Joe Rogan for keeping carnivore alive. He and all his hunting/army buddies talk about their "insane energy levels" on it. He make it a talking point at least every week. I usually tap out after about 30 minutes nowadays because I'm growing tired of his constant broscience & "enlightened everyman" schtick, but he brings carnivore up all the damn time. He also likes to prattle on about IF.
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    If people wanted to use IF, I would only use it on my fats/carbs while making sure i spread protein in about 4-5 feedings throughout day
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    Originally Posted by broganoff View Post
    A 5 year google trend word search mostly corroborates this, except carnivore seems to be holding steady. Ketogenic had a strong peak through 2017-18 and decline since, as expected, although oddly enough "keto" is still somewhat steady after declining from a similar peak.

    Which makes me wonder what will come after carnivore. Obviously we've seen attempts with vegan and low protein from "Game Changers" and the like, although from a body comp and fat loss perspective it doesn't seem particularly advantageous, at least when compared to other whole foods based approaches.

    Regardless of what term you search, there are big EKG spikes right at the start of each year. People are so predictable. Lol
    I'm impressed. Someone's doing more fact checking than me.
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    On a slightly related note, where the hell is riptmarine?!
    I've been wondering the same thing.
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