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    Creatine in preworkout drink enough?

    I've been using a preworkout drink (cellucor c4 sport) and it has micronized creatine in the blend but not exactly how much. The blend is 4.9 grams but there are 8 things included in that.

    Is this sufficient considering I'm taking it 5-6 days a week or should I consider additional creatine if I want it to be effective?
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    Registered User kyle38's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ezra76 View Post
    I've been using a preworkout drink (cellucor c4 sport) and it has micronized creatine in the blend but not exactly how much. The blend is 4.9 grams but there are 8 things included in that.

    Is this sufficient considering I'm taking it 5-6 days a week or should I consider additional creatine if I want it to be effective?
    Yes that should be fine. You only use so much before it's wasted. Creatine is one of the few things I've ever noticed actually works. Even that should be cycled. I don't take anything at this point and really only use creatine if I have an injury. I take " No Bull" creatine and take 4 pills twice a day when I use it. I have some protien powder with the added amino acids. That helped when I was strength training, but not taking that either.

    You can really only put on 3-4 pounds of muscle after the first 3 months, and it will go down from there, regardless of what you take, and most supplements are probably more geared to cause irreversible kidney damage then help build muscle.

    Good definition btw. You could definitely bulk and cut and be well over 200 with low fat at 6ft. Cutting is the hard part.
    Last edited by kyle38; 10-03-2020 at 12:44 AM.
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    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ezra76 View Post
    I've been using a preworkout drink (cellucor c4 sport) and it has micronized creatine in the blend but not exactly how much. The blend is 4.9 grams but there are 8 things included in that.

    Is this sufficient considering I'm taking it 5-6 days a week or should I consider additional creatine if I want it to be effective?
    I think 5 grams of creatine a day is usually considered optimal. More than that is simply excreted and not used, so it's pissing money down the toilet. Of course, that's the result of most supplements anyway.

    Creatine Monohydrate is the most economical, and is as effective or moreso than any of the other formulations. Keep it simple.
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    169 11% in avi ezra76's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kyle38 View Post
    Yes that should be fine. You only use so much before it's wasted. Creatine is one of the few things I've ever noticed actually works. Even that should be cycled. I don't take anything at this point and really only use creatine if I have an injury. I take " No Bull" creatine and take 4 pills twice a day when I use it. I have some protien powder with the added amino acids. That helped when I was strength training, but not taking that either.

    You can really only put on 3-4 pounds of muscle after the first 3 months, and it will go down from there, regardless of what you take, and most supplements are probably more geared to cause irreversible kidney damage then help build muscle.

    Good definition btw. You could definitely bulk and cut and be well over 200 with low fat at 6ft. Cutting is the hard part.
    Thank you. I'm just starting back so those pics are from like 9yrs. ago. Hopefully I can get somewhere near that if I stay with it. Shame I didn't keep up but a lot of things happened since then. Wife, house, kids, started a business ect..
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    169 11% in avi ezra76's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    I think 5 grams of creatine a day is usually considered optimal. More than that is simply excreted and not used, so it's pissing money down the toilet. Of course, that's the result of most supplements anyway.

    Creatine Monohydrate is the most economical, and is as effective or moreso than any of the other formulations. Keep it simple.
    Thank you. I started reading up on it after I posted this and basically would need to load then add more to get the most out of it. I'll probably order some in a few weeks and give it a try.
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    Originally Posted by ezra76 View Post
    Thank you. I started reading up on it after I posted this and basically would need to load then add more to get the most out of it. I'll probably order some in a few weeks and give it a try.
    A loading phase is not required, nor is cycling. Creatine is an easy supplement - just keep taking 5g a day and after about a month you’ll be at max capacity in your system. Stay on it forever. If you skip a week or two at some point, just start taking it again when you’re back from holiday or whatnot.

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    Originally Posted by Corbets View Post
    A loading phase is not required, nor is cycling. Creatine is an easy supplement - just keep taking 5g a day and after about a month you’ll be at max capacity in your system. Stay on it forever. If you skip a week or two at some point, just start taking it again when you’re back from holiday or whatnot.

    Easy.
    ^^^^ This. Loading is a waste of time. It causes more issues than it helps. Just start a normal dose, and be patient. You've lived this long without it, a gradual buildup is your best bet anyway. Once you start, never stop.


    The benefits of creatine extend well beyond muscular performance. Cognition is one of many. Memory is another. I can't remember what the others are...
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    In search of V-Taper ectoBgone's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    I can't remember what the others are...
    Must be because you haven't been cycling it!
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    should be enough, especially if you also consume red meat, which has creatine in it as well.
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    169 11% in avi ezra76's Avatar
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    I ended up buying some SixStar stuff at walmart that has creatine and bcaa's. I'll try that during workouts.
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    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ezra76 View Post
    I ended up buying some SixStar stuff at walmart that has creatine and bcaa's. I'll try that during workouts.
    I hate to sound like a super-criticizer, but while the BCAAs won't hurt you, they're a waste of money. If you are getting sufficient high-quality protein, then you already have all the BCAAs you need. If you think you need more protein than your diet gives you, just get some store-brand whey powder and use that. (I find the vanilla mixes better than the cocoa stuff)

    Everything surrounding supplements is gimmicky, and too often misleading. Just focus on a good, complete diet, high quality protein, plenty of vitamin D3 and zinc, and one serving of creatine monohydrate once a day. You don't need fancy brands for any of this, it's the same stuff as the store brands but with fancier labels and criminally inflated markups.
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    169 11% in avi ezra76's Avatar
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    After doing a little research what I've found is the proprietary blend actually only has 1g of creatine. Having enough is important to me for the recovery advantages.

    As far as supplements I've got the c4 sport pre-workout $18, Six Star creatine/bcaa post workout $15, ON Whey $22 and just a standard multi-vitamin $10.

    I saved right around $100 by not drinking beer at all this past week. Not to mention 10,000 useless calories.
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    I hate to sound like a super-criticizer, but while the BCAAs won't hurt you, they're a waste of money.
    There is a possibility that they are actually worse than neutral. It may be that the amino acid breakdown in the muscle and the beginning of the protein turnover process plays a role in signaling protein synthesis, all of which BCAAs are trying to blunt.


    Originally Posted by ezra76 View Post
    After doing a little research what I've found is the proprietary blend actually only has 1g of creatine. Having enough is important to me for the recovery advantages.

    As far as supplements I've got the c4 sport pre-workout $18, Six Star creatine/bcaa post workout $15, ON Whey $22 and just a standard multi-vitamin $10.

    I saved right around $100 by not drinking beer at all this past week. Not to mention 10,000 useless calories.
    The majority of pre-workouts have more effort put into marketing than they do making a legitimate product. They're typically expensive doses of caffeine with proprietary blends of other ingredients that sound amazing but are proprietary in order to hide the fact that they are not clinically dosed. If you are going to pursue pre-workout supplements, take some time and do a little research at https://examine.com/.
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    Just be careful if you have kidney issues of any kind. It can give false positives. I had this happen and it made my doctors nervous so I stopped taking it.
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    Creapure® Creatine Monohydrate is a wise move. You can start with a smaller tub to assure you tolerate well. I already know I do so buy 1kg here on the site when needed which lasts well at my 3g daily dose.

    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    ^^^^ This. Loading is a waste of time. It causes more issues than it helps.
    There is nothing really wrong with loading. It's also not needed. It's neither here nor there. Although for most it's easier just to do the daily 3-5g.

    Data:

    https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...970-017-0173-z

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4864174/
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    ^^^^ This. Loading is a waste of time. It causes more issues than it helps. Just start a normal dose, and be patient. You've lived this long without it, a gradual buildup is your best bet anyway. Once you start, never stop.


    The benefits of creatine extend well beyond muscular performance. Cognition is one of many. Memory is another. I can't remember what the others are...
    https://www.t-nation.com/search?q=creatine

    ... from the 'taking creatine at the wrong time' article: "After 4 weeks, the men in the after-workout creatine group gained TWICE as much lean body mass as the pre-workout creatine group. The after-workout group also lost about 2.2 pounds more fat than the pre-workout group, in addition to being able to bench a couple of pounds more than the pre-workout group."
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    I try to avoid powders and creatine is one of them. I just go with food to get my creatine fix.

    Steak, salmon, tuna, chicken, vension and cod contain around 2.3 grams of creatine/ 1pound,

    Herring contains 4.5 grams/1 pound.

    If you are on a budget tune and herring in can is the way to go.
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    Originally Posted by lsiberian View Post
    Just be careful if you have kidney issues of any kind. It can give false positives. I had this happen and it made my doctors nervous so I stopped taking it.
    +1

    Gotta be real careful if there is any underlying kidney condition
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    https://www.t-nation.com/search?q=creatine

    ... from the 'taking creatine at the wrong time' article: "After 4 weeks, the men in the after-workout creatine group gained TWICE as much lean body mass as the pre-workout creatine group. The after-workout group also lost about 2.2 pounds more fat than the pre-workout group, in addition to being able to bench a couple of pounds more than the pre-workout group."
    Interesting. I'll have to try to do post workout I guess. I actually mixed more into my preworkout drink today so will not keep doing that.
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    Originally Posted by lsiberian View Post
    Just be careful if you have kidney issues of any kind. It can give false positives. I had this happen and it made my doctors nervous so I stopped taking it.
    I won't argue with people that swear they have to take stuff, but I like to read more conservative statements. No supplement cannot replace a good diet and doing work. Once kidney damage is done, it can't be reversed. Very important topic.
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    Originally Posted by kyle38 View Post
    I won't argue with people that swear they have to take stuff, but I like to read more conservative statements. No supplement cannot replace a good diet and doing work. Once kidney damage is done, it can't be reversed. Very important topic.
    Creatine does NOT damage kidneys. That's a common misconception. What it does is increase the excretion of its breakdown product, creatinine. Elevated creatinine levels are one indicator of reduced kidney function, but by itself, is not diagnostic. If a doctor sees high creatinine levels, he should ask questions, but that should not be enough to panic. The increased creatinine caused by creatine breakdown does not damage kidneys, and is not indicative of kidney damage. If a doctor knowledgeable about creatine sees increased levels of creatinine, and no other symptoms, and he knows the patient is taking creatine, then he also knows there's no cause for concern.

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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    Creatine does NOT damage kidneys. That's a common misconception. What it does is increase the excretion of its breakdown product, creatinine. Elevated creatinine levels are one indicator of reduced kidney function, but by itself, is not diagnostic. If a doctor sees high creatinine levels, he should ask questions, but that should not be enough to panic. The increased creatinine caused by creatine breakdown does not damage kidneys, and is not indicative of kidney damage. If a doctor knowledgeable about creatine sees increased levels of creatinine, and no other symptoms, and he knows the patient is taking creatine, then he also knows there's no cause for concern.

    https://www.strongerbyscience.com/cr...e_Side_Effects
    Contaminates can damage them. Clean creatine is fine. You know good old Chinses baby formula is what you have to watch out for. Other supplements such as SARMS will damage them. You have to be very careful.
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    https://www.t-nation.com/search?q=creatine

    ... from the 'taking creatine at the wrong time' article: "After 4 weeks, the men in the after-workout creatine group gained TWICE as much lean body mass as the pre-workout creatine group. The after-workout group also lost about 2.2 pounds more fat than the pre-workout group, in addition to being able to bench a couple of pounds more than the pre-workout group."
    That link took me to a page with muultiple articles about creatine, and I read through several of them as well as the one you referenced. Interestingly, some of those other articles contradicted the claim about dose timing.

    What stood out to me was that the study here consisted of only 19 individuals, so each group could not have consisted of more than 10 people. That's WAY too small a sample to form any general conclusions. And when you think about it, making any timing claims at all just doesn't make sense considering how creatine supposedly works in the body and how it's stored. The whole concept behind creatine loading is to push the amount of stored creatine into cellular tissues, because it accumulates and dissipates slowly. The idea of daily creatine doses is to maintain a saturation level of creatine, not to give it short term spikes. And even if it did, post-workout wouldn't make any sense, because creatine reservoirs have to be present at the time of exercise in order to provide the ATP replenishment that creatine is used for in the cell. Creatine is a long-term resident in the cell, not a quickly depleted fuel.

    With that in mind, it's hard to conceive of how pre- or post-workout dosing of creatine would make any difference to performance whatsoever. If there are multiple studies with decent sample sizes that show this, and if someone can come up with a mechanism that would explain why it should work in this way, then I could take it more seriously. Until then, I have to think of these particular results as spurious, and not meaningful.


    According to this article from Eric Trexler, "Countless studies have shown creatine to be efficacious with a wide range of supplement timing approaches. There are very few studies (three, to be precise) directly comparing the effects of pre-exercise creatine supplementation to post-exercise supplementation. The results of these three studies were combined in a small meta-analysis. The results suggested that post-exercise supplementation may lead to slightly greater increases in fat-free mass, with no significant difference observed for effects on strength. The body of literature on this topic is extremely small, so I am hesitant to make firm conclusions, and we have plenty of evidence showing creatine supplementation to be efficacious with a variety of timing strategies. "

    So if there is an effect, it is small and unexplained, but its still not even clear it's real. I would argue that the best time to take creatine is whenever it's most convenient. If this is post-workout, fine. If it's some other time, also fine.
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    Originally Posted by kyle38 View Post
    Contaminates can damage them. Clean creatine is fine. You know good old Chinses baby formula is what you have to watch out for. Other supplements such as SARMS will damage them. You have to be very careful.
    True enough. At home we make sure to use creatine that's labeled "Creapure". My understanding is that it's verified to be contaminant free. I'm sure it's not the only source that is. But your concern is certainly a good reason not to just have it thrown in with a lot of other questionable ingredients as supplements for the sake of supplements.

    Supplements should be kept to a minimum, and we should always be aware of what we're taking and why we're taking them.
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    That link took me to a page with muultiple articles about creatine, and I read through several of them as well as the one you referenced. Interestingly, some of those other articles contradicted the claim about dose timing...
    Yes, I'm aware of the timing controversy. I did read most of the articles I linked to. I thought the post workout study was worth experimenting with.
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    5 gram pre workout is what i do, tbh never felt anything different from it
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    Originally Posted by supramax View Post
    Yes, I'm aware of the timing controversy. I did read most of the articles I linked to. I thought the post workout study was worth experimenting with.
    I'd still like to see a mechanism proposed, even if it's just hypothetical.
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    I just take 5g late in the day with my dinner.
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    To add to the kidney damage from Creatine powder, it's absolutely real and happens a lot, especially in our age category. If you a meat eater you are getting your daily dose of creatine, no need for powder. If you do decide to do powder creatine, you need to buy the purest form of it.
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    Originally Posted by adamgentile View Post
    To add to the kidney damage from Creatine powder, it's absolutely real and happens a lot, especially in our age category. If you a meat eater you are getting your daily dose of creatine, no need for powder. If you do decide to do powder creatine, you need to buy the purest form of it.
    I call BS. Creatine is one of the most intensely studied supplements out there, and there is no evidence of it causing kidney damage. I did my own search, and found one report of anecdotal correlation -- and that was in an 18 year old, certainly not "our" age group. Many other studies, with larger and better controlled sample sizes, have found no such association.

    Add to that, to get the same amount of creatine from beef, you'd have to eat huge amounts, beyond what would be considered a healthy consumption, not to mention the environmental affects that are legitimately attached to commercial cattle production.

    All things considered, if you want to get the full muscle building effects of creatine, eating beef is probably the least healthy way to acquire it.
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