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  1. #31
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    Originally Posted by DukeOfWoodBerry View Post
    Of course letting in the Goths contributed. The Roman army also went to chit because it wasn't full of actual Romans anymore.
    Did you read the articles? That wasn't the only described factor.
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  2. #32
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    Originally Posted by BetaAsPhuck View Post
    Did you read the articles? That wasn't the only described factor.
    It's not the only factor. Letting the Goths in and the military going to chit are the the top 2 reasons in my opinion though.

    Over expansion is a really key one too.
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  3. #33
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    Originally Posted by KhaosRises View Post
    Fascism is a right wing ideology. Read books, you dumb *******.

    Imagine being this dumb
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  4. #34
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    Originally Posted by ~Hades~ View Post
    Imagine being this dumb
    Order and nationalism aren't right wing?
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  5. #35
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    Originally Posted by DukeOfWoodBerry View Post
    Order and nationalism aren't right wing?
    Not exclusively.

    Like I already explained in this post ITT...

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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by BetaAsPhuck View Post
    Every system can be gamed
    Then this cannot be a valid criticism of any one system.

    I'm not ideological or very into theory but I fall somewhere in that milieu.

    "In general, the monarchical form of government is that which is natural to man; just as it is natural to bees and ants, to a flight of cranes, a herd of wandering elephants, a pack of wolves seeking prey in common, and many other animals, all of which place one of their number at the head of the business in hand. Every business in which men engage, if it is attended with danger—every campaign, every ship at sea—must also be subject to the authority of one commander; everywhere it is one will that must lead."

    "On the other hand, a republic is as unnatural as it is unfavourable to the higher intellectual life and the arts and sciences. Accordingly we find that everywhere in the world, and at all times, nations, whether civilised or savage, or occupying a position between the two, are always under monarchical government. The rule of many as Homer said, is not a good thing: let there be one ruler, one king;"

    "In a word, republics are unnatural and artificial; they are the product of reflection. Hence it is that they occur only as rare exceptions in the whole history of the world. There were the small Greek republics, the Roman and the Carthaginian; but they were all rendered possible by the fact that five-sixths, perhaps even seven-eighths, of the population consisted of slaves. In the year 1840, even in the United States, there were three million slaves to a population of sixteen millions. Then, again, the duration of the republics of antiquity, compared with that of monarchies, was very short. Republics are very easy to found, and very difficult to maintain, while with monarchies it is exactly the reverse."

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  7. #37
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    Originally Posted by PenorBrahNoHomo View Post
    Then this cannot be a valid criticism of any one system.
    That wasn't the criticism.

    In context (if you continued reading beyond that point? And I'm genuinely asking if you did) I was very clearly laying out that some systems are more easily gamed than others. A system without compartmentalization of power, via having government branches of the executive, judicial and legislative is a harder system to game than one that has centralized power with a dictator and a vanguard.


    "In general, the monarchical form of government is that which is natural to man; just as it is natural to bees and ants, to a flight of cranes, a herd of wandering elephants, a pack of wolves seeking prey in common, and many other animals, all of which place one of their number at the head of the business in hand. Every business in which men engage, if it is attended with danger—every campaign, every ship at sea—must also be subject to the authority of one commander; everywhere it is one will that must lead."

    "On the other hand, a republic is as unnatural as it is unfavourable to the higher intellectual life and the arts and sciences. Accordingly we find that everywhere in the world, and at all times, nations, whether civilised or savage, or occupying a position between the two, are always under monarchical government. The rule of many as Homer said, is not a good thing: let there be one ruler, one king;"

    "In a word, republics are unnatural and artificial; they are the product of reflection. Hence it is that they occur only as rare exceptions in the whole history of the world. There were the small Greek republics, the Roman and the Carthaginian; but they were all rendered possible by the fact that five-sixths, perhaps even seven-eighths, of the population consisted of slaves. In the year 1840, even in the United States, there were three million slaves to a population of sixteen millions. Then, again, the duration of the republics of antiquity, compared with that of monarchies, was very short. Republics are very easy to found, and very difficult to maintain, while with monarchies it is exactly the reverse."

    - Schopenhauer
    That doesn't address the structural problems that I laid out.

    Also, that is an argument from pragmatism, and I don't find pragmatism in and of itself convincing. Hunter gather societies have endured longer than any other form of social organizations (they still exist to this day), so if his argument is based in longevity, then hunter gather societies wins.
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  8. #38
    R1b PenorBrahNoHomo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BetaAsPhuck View Post
    That wasn't the criticism.

    In context (if you continued reading beyond that point? And I'm genuinely asking if you did) I was very clearly laying out that some systems are more easily gamed than others. A system without compartmentalization of power, via having government branches of the executive, judicial and legislative is a harder system to game than one that has centralized power with a dictator and a vanguard.

    That doesn't address the structural problems that I laid out.

    Also, that is an argument from pragmatism, and I don't find pragmatism in and of itself convincing. Hunter gather societies have endured longer than any other form of social organizations (they still exist to this day), so if his argument is based in longevity, then hunter gather societies wins.
    Argument from pragmatism > autistic ideological argument from theory. Ideology is cancer.

    A distribution of power still exists in any system of government, i.e. different factions, offices of state, dukes and barons under monarchical feudalism etc., even if it's not specifically compartmentalized into branches like modern republics.

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  9. #39
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    Originally Posted by PenorBrahNoHomo View Post
    Argument from pragmatism > autistic ideological argument from theory.
    Then Anarcho-primitivism wins on that basis.

    Like I said, it's endured longer than all other systems of social organization combined. It's the most enduring form of social organization in human history.

    A distribution of power still exists in any system of government, i.e. different factions, offices of state, dukes and barons under monarchical feudalism etc., even if it's not specifically compartmentalized into branches like modern republics.
    That's a vague statement, I'm asking for specifics regarding the structure of governnent from a 3rd position or Fascist perspective, on how power would be compartmentalized, to make it difficult for the system to be gamed to become another North Korea.

    Can you give me specifics?

    Hunter-gatherer may well be the best way to live as a human.
    You might like Anarcho-Primivitism then. Srs.
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  10. #40
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    Nope. Read anything by Mussolini and you will quickly understand that the very founder of fascism did not understand the human spirit. Don't waste your time.

    Same goes for Adolf Hitler. Another fool (and poor writer)
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  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by SultanofBling View Post
    Nope. Read anything by Mussolini and you will quickly understand that the very founder of fascism did not understand the human spirit. Don't waste your time.

    Same goes for Adolf Hitler. Another fool (and poor writer)
    Giovanni Gentile was the theorist, Mussolini was the practitioner.

    Just to stress, I do not agree with 3rd position/Fascist political philosophy, IMO it is heavily built on a philosophically romantic view of authority and hierarchy.

    I don't agree with Marxism either, but where both 3rd positionists and Marxists excel is in their criticisms of Modernity, Individualism, and Late Stage Capitalism. Simply brilliant, IMO. Conservatives and Liberals IMO and IME do not have the theory to create such deeply insightful criticisms of contemporary society (apart from Roger Scruton, who was a Conservative philosopher).
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  12. #42
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    Originally Posted by BetaAsPhuck View Post
    Giovanni Gentile was the theorist, Mussolini was the practitioner.

    Just to stress, I do not agree with 3rd position/Fascist political philosophy, IMO it is heavily built on a philosophically romantic view of authority and hierarchy.
    Oh no I fully understand the intellectual curiosity. I'm firmly in the camp of "We should read as much as we can, so that we know." You're totally right about the romanticism -- a lot of the support for these movements seems to be swept up in this romantic image of what was the darkest time in human history? It's always been strange to me, but I never had a white supremacist's wool sunglasses
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    Originally Posted by AntiSemiteProud View Post
    Fascism is a JEWISH creation just like Communism, Nazism, Socialism, Islam and Christianity.
    (Adopting your mindset...)

    You forgot to add Capitalism. Which came from Mercantilism, which was largely ran by Jewish Merchants.

    Along with all the Jewish intellectuals who supported Capitalism like;

    David Ricardo.
    Milton Friedman.
    Ludwig Von Mises.
    Robert Nozick.
    Murray Rothbard.
    Ayn Rand.

    So, if you are going to reject; Capitalism, Fascism, Socialism, Communism, Islam and Christianity because they were 'created by Jews'. What is left?

    A Pagan Hunter-Gatherer society? Pagan Monarchism?
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    Originally Posted by BetaAsPhuck View Post
    (Adopting your mindset...)

    You forgot to add Capitalism. Which came from Mercantilism, which was largely ran by Jewish Merchants.

    Along with all the Jewish intellectuals who supported Capitalism like;

    David Ricardo.
    Milton Friedman.
    Ludwig Von Mises.
    Robert Nozick.
    Murray Rothbard.
    Ayn Rand.

    So, if you are going to reject; Capitalism, Fascism, Socialism, Communism, Islam and Christianity because they were 'created by Jews'. What is left?

    A Pagan Hunter-Gatherer society? Pagan Monarchism?
    Jews were bankers. Most persecuted religion in the West, barred from all professions, practiced usury on account of it being a sin for other Christians.
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    Originally Posted by SultanofBling View Post
    Jews were bankers. Most persecuted religion in the West, barred from all professions, practiced usury on account of it being a sin for other Christians.
    Why did you write that?
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    Originally Posted by BetaAsPhuck View Post
    Why did you write that?
    I just take issue with the way this is characterized:

    . Which came from Mercantilism, which was largely ran by Jewish Merchants.
    All I'm finding on this is that the jewish peoples were largely excluded/prosecuted for much of Medieval European History. When mercantilism came about, they were positioned to be exploited by the monarchs of Europe. That's all. To me their role/relationship with Mercantilism seems largely one-way and enacted upon them.

    https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...-and-the-jews/
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    Originally Posted by SultanofBling View Post
    I just take issue with the way this is characterized:
    I wrote this right at the start of the post...

    Originally Posted by BetaAsPhuck View Post
    (Adopting your mindset...)
    What the troll wrote was a gross caricature of the historical development of economic and political systems, and I adopting that mindset too. To point out that rejecting political system/theories because of heavy Jewish involvement is ridiculous.


    Though, to be fair, there are some people who may not have understood that it was satire, so I can understand why you might have wanted to point that it's more nuanced.
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    Originally Posted by BetaAsPhuck View Post
    I wrote this right at the start of the post...



    What the troll wrote was a gross caricature of the historical development of economic and political systems, and I adopting that mindset too. To point out that rejecting political system/theories because of heavy Jewish involvement is ridiculous.


    Though, to be fair, there are some people who may not have understood that it was satire, so I can understand why you might have wanted to point that it's more nuanced.
    Hahhaa honestly I reacted too quickly. I realize I responded to your post when I meant to respond to the troll.

    My b
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    Originally Posted by Latinowarrior3 View Post
    Hey, I'm back. Forgot the password of my original account.

    You are of course still saying hilariously wrong things.

    First, comparing different peoples and their countries against the same standard of success is irrelevant. The hoax of Germany choosing to invade other countries because they were suffering is historically false. National Socialism brought Germany back to life after a world war that they lost. The reality is that they tried very hard to not invade countries unless those countries were slaughtering Germans in land that was annexed or redrawn after the war.

    Sankara, LOL.

    The homogeneity of countries are what have historically led to their successes. Diversity extends that success for a limited period of time before it completely destroys it. It's what happened to the Genghis Khan dynasty as well as the Roman empire. This is a fact.

    Insults about the 3rd position made while pretending to be smart lead nowhere. There are many arguments that can be made by nationalists and socialists of all colors that are valid. I believe that the two have far more in common than they may believe and their unity is what the establishment fears the most. The whole "fear of a melting pot," thing is juvenile. It plays off the "white nationalist," thing where the media still tells people to believe that white people who want to be left alone are evil. The fact is, there are people of many races that would choose to live among people that look like them over anything else. It's human nature.
    Hey look he's back.

    1. Germany had to and was going to invade other nations due to the fact that Germany was close to economic ruin under Hitler and Hitler wanted living space for his Utopian vision of Germanic folk. His focus on the military left other sectors of the economy under-funded and his autarky made sure that his economy was receiving zero foreign currency. There's only so much trading you can do before nations start demanding money. Austria, Czechoslovakia and Memel (Lithuania) kept his nation going for a while due to the fact he could loot the coffers of these territories. Hitler was going to keep going even if Poland had given him Danzig. He was gonna start bullying other nations until eventually someone stood up because there were Germans literally everywhere in Europe and most of these nations didn't dare assimilate them for fear of reprisal. Also you should read the works of Hjalmar Schacht (the economic minister) who was constantly telling Hitler how the economy was collapsing unless he eased the arms expenditure. The same chit was happening in Italy, Japan, and other nations that have adopted the 3rd position principles.

    Also no other country were slaughtering Germans. That's Nazi propaganda you're buying into. Goebbels made those events up in order to justify the war effort.

    2. Sankara, simply got ousted before the whole rotten structure was revealed. It doesn't matter if he advanced women rights if it's a dictatorship. Nobody has rights lol. He followed in the footsteps of all the other African Socialists and look at many African nations today. Those that embraced capitalism are doing great and those that didn't are wittering away.

    3. The homogeneity of a country is not a valid indicator for success. Japan was homogeneous and yet they were stuck in the Samurai age. Only when America came did they become something. France was divided among religious lines and formed a vast empire. The Germans only became strong when they merged together. German is not a synonym for homogeneity because Bavarian Germans and Germans in Prussia are different. Spain wasn't a homogeneous place and yet they formed a huge empire. Rome lasted for 1000+ years and they were extremely diverse. Rome collapsed because of crappy management of its economy (corruption), cronyism, and a failure to adapt to new changes. The barbarians didn't end Rome if thats what you're trynna insinuate. They were happy to become Roman citizens and wanted a bigger say in the Empire. Unlucky to them Rome was already in the process of collapsing and they simply looted what was left.

    Genghis Khan's empire collapsed because of himself. He had too many heirs and the empire was simply too vast to manage. So it promptly collapsed afterwards.

    Like I said, the 3rd position is nothing but folks who are closet nazis that believe White people should have their own country. And they do have their own countries. Their have never been more whites in the worlds history. Contrary to popular belief European history is not just white history. Rome was a mixture of peoples from Africa, Asia and Europe. Austria Hungary was a mixture of Central Europeans and Slavic groups. England's history is a mixture of european, indian, african and asian history. You think cricket is a European invention? Russian history is a mixture of European and Asian history. The same thing applies to Africa. There are sometimes more than 200 ethnic groups in a single african country. Quit acting like History more specifically European history is a purely White thing. Which is what the 3rd position and Fascists try and do. They've muddied the water so much that it's impossible to prove them wrong. We're all a mix of cultures whether we like it or not.

    I rest my case. If you believe in the 3rd positions principles good for you. You're nothing more than a National Socialists who would happily deport millions of folks back to nation they escaped for a better life. It's time you own up to that fact and quit hiding behind fancy labels like your Marxist brethren do.
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    Originally Posted by MirinCanadian99 View Post
    I rest my case. If you believe in the 3rd positions principles good for you. You're nothing more than a National Socialists who would happily deport millions of folks back to nation they escaped for a better life. It's time you own up to that fact and quit hiding behind fancy labels like your Marxist brethren do.
    You've said you were pro-3rd position in the past.

    Which 3rd position authors did you read, that influenced you to adopt and promote the 3rd position?

    The way you have described the 3rd position ITT, honestly sounds to me like you largely adopted the 3rd position due to memes/posts that you read on social media/forums. Am I wrong?
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    Originally Posted by BetaAsPhuck View Post
    You've said you were pro-3rd position in the past.

    Which 3rd position authors did you read, that influenced you to adopt and promote the 3rd position?

    The way you have described the 3rd position ITT, honestly sounds to me like you largely adopted the 3rd position due to memes/posts that you read on social media/forums. Am I wrong?
    I was into Fascism when I was a younger dude. I read the works of Mussolini, read Mein Kampf, and read Giovanni Gentile. I believed the State should have a bigger say in things and make sure it's People are taken care of first. Believed we should encourage people to have more kids and that we should be proud of our history.

    I then stumbled Milton Friedman, Thomas Sowell, the Austrian School, a few documentaries/Videos about the socialism surrounding these ideologies and how they end up bankrupting themselves fairly quickly. I also learned that the 3rd position was a hot spot for White Supremacists so I jumped ship. I learned to stop judging folks by the color of their skin and realized that History is not homogeneous.

    I don't form my opinion based on memes I see online. I put in the effort and read up on the topic. And my conclusion is that the 3rd Position is just Fascists and Nazi's trying to rebrand themselves as something more family friendly.

    Here are some of the lovely (Obvious Sarcasm) 10 points declared by a 3rd position group:

    -4. ZIONISM AND THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE
    Needless to say, this power structure exists to serve and extend the interests of International Jewry, and this can only be done at the expense of the indigenous populations who have lost control of their countries to this discriminatory creed.

    -6. RACIAL AND CULTURAL DIVERSITY.
    The Third Position insists that it is both healthy and divinely ordained that people should have a genuine love and preference for their own kind; it likewise insists that this healthy instinct must be complemented by a sincere respect for those of differing race and culture who act upon the same principle.
    In the struggle to preserve human diversity, resettlement of races to their countries of origin will play a major role, and will directly aid the struggle to build a more peaceful world

    8. THE MENACE OF BANKERDOM.
    The Third Position believes that International Finance is one of the greatest evils of the modern world, and thus is intrinsically hostile to the programme of the Third Position.

    If you've ever read or listened to a single HITLER speech you would know that the chit they spew is copy pasted Hitlerism. I rest my case the third position is nothing more than a bunch of Neo-Nazis trying to go under the radar by acting as if they value other ethnic groups. Resettlement, International Jewry, Bankerdom, and all the other chit you would see in the 1930's. I thought you were one of the sane miscers in the R&P and yet here you are just another Socialists with a racial spin to it.
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    Originally Posted by MirinCanadian99 View Post
    I was into Fascism when I was a younger dude. I read the works of Mussolini, read Mein Kampf, and read Giovanni Gentile. I believed the State should have a bigger say in things and make sure it's People are taken care of first. Believed we should encourage people to have more kids and that we should be proud of our history.

    I then stumbled Milton Friedman, Thomas Sowell, the Austrian School, a few documentaries/Videos about the socialism surrounding these ideologies and how they end up bankrupting themselves fairly quickly. I also learned that the 3rd position was a hot spot for White Supremacists so I jumped ship. I learned to stop judging folks by the color of their skin and realized that History is not homogeneous.
    I see, you limited your reading to Italian and German Fascism.

    If you would have looked into other forms of Fascism like the Brazilian Integralists and the American Blackshirts, you would have seen that not all forms of Fascism are racialist based.

    Again, I don't support Fascism, but you seem to present a gross generalization of the 3rd position/Fascism, in the same way that a lot of Libertarian intellectuals do about Socialism (e.g. not telling people that Socialism has a diversity of political and economic philosophies).
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    You guys may like this...


    A debate between a Fascist and a pro Free Market Capitalist (Stefan Molyneux):




    A debate between a Fascist and a Marxist Socialist...

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    Originally Posted by BetaAsPhuck View Post
    I see, you limited your reading to Italian and German Fascism.

    If you would have looked into other forms of Fascism like the Brazilian Integralists and the American Blackshirts, you would have seen that not all forms of Fascism are racialist based.

    Again, I don't support Fascism, but you seem to present a gross generalization of the 3rd position/Fascism, in the same way that a lot of Libertarian intellectuals do about Socialism (e.g. not telling people that Socialism has a diversity of political and economic philosophies).
    Well Italy was kind of the birthplace of Modern Day Fascism so obviously I was going read it up first. I love German history so at a certain point it's expected of me to read German Fascism.

    The issue with any Fascist movement is that it inevitably becomes National in nature and then it becomes Xenophobic in nature. Whether Xenophobia is Ethnic, religious, racial, cultural, etc it doesn't make a difference. Eventually you get Jingoism and next thing you know you're at war. Brazil was unlucky because Uncle Sam was making sure South America didn't erupt into war by guaranteeing the independence of nations in the hemisphere. But every other fascist nation has gone to war one way or another.

    Don't get me started on American fascism. I'm sure if you dig hard enough you'll find talking points about sending African Americans back to Africa. Most Alt-Right folks make that very clear.

    Socialism is socialism. There is no real diversity in it. The way people apply it may be different but the underlying goal is the same.
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    Originally Posted by KhaosRises View Post
    Fascism is a right wing ideology. Read books, you dumb *******.
    Large scale destructive application of fascism has always been left-wing groups in the modern era.

    Nazis, Perón (Evita sound track), Brazil through most of the 1900s -- all left-wing fascism. Even modern day CCP is fascism as they're pro-capitalism if through the state's benefit (meaning Xi's benefit).

    Traditionally Fascism was right-wing concepts but when derived from populism through left-wing concepts such as socialism and communism - they're left wing. If you want right-wing fascist today you need a social elite group of richers ruling the peons.

    Populism doesn't happen in a vacuum in modern era things - you need social movements and social movements aren't the rich elite it is the poor - the rich have jobs to do.

    Right-wing fascism doesn't exist today in any large scale. We have party fascism such as the CCP in China. Where Xi is now exulted as a God by crazy commie Chinese people yet he uses Capitalist mechanisms to fund and perform his socialist desires while forcing people into concentration camps and cutting babies out of wombs.
      
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    Originally Posted by MirinCanadian99 View Post
    Well Italy was kind of the birthplace of Modern Day Fascism so obviously I was going read it up first. I love German history so at a certain point it's expected of me to read German Fascism.
    I understand, but you didn't venture outside of Italian and German Fascism.

    As you 'should' have know that Fascism is contextually applied, so it will be different from country to country.

    The issue with any Fascist movement is that it inevitably becomes National in nature and then it becomes Xenophobic in nature. Whether Xenophobia is Ethnic, religious, racial, cultural, etc it doesn't make a difference. Eventually you get Jingoism and next thing you know you're at war.
    Fair criticism, IMO. I agree that Fascism is hyper-Nationalist.

    Brazil was unlucky because Uncle Sam was making sure South America didn't erupt into war by guaranteeing the independence of nations in the hemisphere. But every other fascist nation has gone to war one way or another.
    I don't know why you wrote that.

    Don't get me started on American fascism. I'm sure if you dig hard enough you'll find talking points about sending African Americans back to Africa. Most Alt-Right folks make that very clear.
    I specifically mentioned the American Blackshirts. Edit: Looks like they've rebranded... https://www.nationalreformation.org

    Socialism is socialism. There is no real diversity in it. The way people apply it may be different but the underlying goal is the same.
    You saying that, leads to me to believe that you simply are unfamiliar with Socialist political philosophy.

    Have you read/listened to any;

    Kevin Carson?

    Proudhon?

    Richard Wolff (and his rejection of Command economy Marxist Socialism, and promotes Market Socialism via transforming corporations into worker cooperatives)?
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    DDSF1, no offence but I'm never impressed or intimidated when someone tells me about their educational background, and then says "you are wrong".

    We aren't talking about STEM, we are talking about political theory, so I'm really not impressed when people cite credentials in response to an argument that I've made. There are academics who disagree with your understanding of Fascism and consider it right wing.

    So, why don't you present a case for your conclusions?
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    Originally Posted by BetaAsPhuck View Post
    I understand, but you didn't venture outside of Italian and German Fascism.

    As you - 'should' have know - that Fascism is contextually applied, so it will be different from country to country.



    Fair criticism, IMO. I agree that Fascism is hyper-Nationalist.



    I don't know why you wrote that.



    I specifically mentioned the American Blackshirts. Edit: Looks like they've rebranded... https://www.nationalreformation.org



    You saying that, leads to me to believe that you simply are unfamiliar with Socialist political philosophy.

    Have you read/listened to any;

    Kevin Carson?

    Proudhon?

    Richard Wolf (and his rejection of Command economy Marxist Socialism, and promotes Market Socialism via transforming corporations to work cooperatives)?
    "True freedom can only be achieved under a system of law which causes people to recognize their dependence upon morality as being integral to freedom. Freedom is the unbounded search for truth and can be attained only through the State.."

    Through the State. That tells me all I need to know about their positions. They're just another Authoritarian Ideology. Funny how Socialism and Authoritarianism always go hand in hand.

    Regarding Brazil, I simply included it because Brazilian Integralism was just as War Hungry as Italy and Germany but they knew not to anger Uncle Sam. They were sympathetic to the Italian and German cause and had the war gone any different Brazil would have joined the Axis Powers alongside Argentina and Venezuela who were also Fascists Sympathizers.

    No matter how you try and spin it, Fascism inevitably leads to war and Socialism quickly bankrupts nations. The two are a powder keg ready to explode at any moment. Doesn't matter how you try and spin socialism. Work cooperatives or not the end goal is still socialism. Greater Socialism requires more State Control and more State Control means more Authoritarianism. Decentralized socialism doesn't work because Socialism is inherently centralized. I don't care what Idealistic Writers have to say because Socialism in practice has always resulted in misery and centralization. Transforming corporation into work cooperatives requires State Coercion. We can then extrapolate that Socialism is Coercion and Coercion is forcing someone or something to do a certain action.

    Market Socialism is the latest buzz term used by traditional socialists. Let's just do what Denmark does, or let's do what Norway does and include other Nordic Nation. These countries have a non-existent military budget, have high taxes on their citizenry, they don't need to patrol their shipping lanes because America does it for them, in the case of Norway they have huge oil reserves, they produce more per capita, have small populations, have relatively fit populations that don't cram their healthcare system, they have higher depression rates, and America protects them from Russian aggression. I wanna see Finland protect itself from Russia without America, I wanna see Denmark protect its shipping routes from pirates near ****lia, I wanna see Norway spend as much as they do without oil, and I wanna see Sweden take in as many refugees as they did with America not there to protect it from Russian aggression.

    Socialism has never and will never work.
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  29. #59
    Wage Cuckin' It BetaAsPhuck's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MirinCanadian99 View Post
    "True freedom can only be achieved under a system of law which causes people to recognize their dependence upon morality as being integral to freedom. Freedom is the unbounded search for truth and can be attained only through the State.."

    Through the State. That tells me all I need to know about their positions. They're just another Authoritarian Ideology.
    OK, you avoided addressing the context in which I posted that. In that you were claiming that Fascism = Racialist political philosophy..

    No matter how you try and spin it, Fascism inevitably leads to war
    I literally addressed that the OP, and I agree with you. So I'm not trying to spin anything. I don't know why you wrote that.

    Please don't skim my posts, if that's what you are doing.

    Work cooperatives or not the end goal is still socialism.
    Worker cooperatives are socialism. What makes an economy socialist is it's commercial property rights theory. Again, I advise reading/listening to Socialist property rights theory being explained, and for that I highly recommend Kevin Carson.

    I don't care what Idealistic Writers have to say because Socialism in practice has always resulted in misery and centralization.
    The point is, which you seem to haved ignored, is that Marxist-Leninism, Maoism, and Stalinism =/= all of socialist theory. Which is what Libertarian authors will never tell you.

    Transforming corporation into work cooperatives requires State Coercion. We can then extrapolate that Socialism is Coercion and Coercion is forcing someone or something to do a certain action.
    Are you an anarcho-capitalist?

    I don't think there is anything wrong with coercion, in and of itself.

    You are against coercion, but you support US military interventionism. How you reconcile that?

    Let's just do what Denmark does, or let's do what Norway does and include other Nordic Nation. These countries have a non-existent military budget, have high taxes on their citizenry, they don't need to patrol their shipping lanes because America does it for them, in the case of Norway they have huge oil reserves, they produce more per capita, have small populations, have relatively fit populations that don't cram their healthcare system, they have higher depression rates, and America protects them from Russian aggression. I wanna see Finland protect itself from Russia without America, I wanna see Denmark protect its shipping routes from pirates near ****lia, I wanna see Norway spend as much as they do without oil, and I wanna see Sweden take in as many refugees as they did with America not there to protect it from Russian aggression.
    I don't know why you brought those countries up, because they aren't Market Socialism, they are Social Democracies.

    Again, I don't you've done much - or any - reading on Socialist theory.
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  30. #60
    Better than you DDSF1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BetaAsPhuck View Post
    DDSF1, no offence but I'm never impressed or intimidated when someone tells me about their educational background, and then says "you are wrong".

    We aren't talking about STEM, we are talking about political theory, so I'm really not impressed when people cite credentials in response to an argument that I've made. There are academics who disagree with your understanding of Fascism and consider it right wing.

    So, why don't you present a case for your conclusions?
    I messaged you privately so you wouldn't take it as an attack, but you still did.

    I didn't cite credentials. I made mention this is related to my actual research. That is literally all I did. Why would you lie? You somehow took that as me trying to intimidate you?

    You repeated what I said and added popular history regarding Fascism.

    you have not read or done any research in the scholarly manner, you have just watched youtube videos and read excerpts which will not inform you properly.

    You are making the mistake of projecting contemporary leftist and leftist inspired understanding back in time.

    I was going to send you a list of primary source writings (short papers and abridged works) but I guess not.
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