Started training again after a 10 year break - is HFT the new best way to train?

[bjorn8320]

Hello!

I've recently started going to the gym again after a very long break (over 10 years).

Back then, almost everyone was training with a 3-split or 4-split program, so that each muscle group was trained only once per week.

However, now I've been observing some guys in the gym train the same muscles almost every day. Then I read some articles about High Frequency Training (HFT) by Thibauedaeu(?), which recommend that natural bodybuilders should not follow a multi-split program, but instead a two-way split and train 6 days a week. The key apparently is low volume - you only do one exercise (3 sets) for each muscle per day, but you train each muscle group every second day, like this:
Day 1: Pushing muscles
Day 2: Pulling muscles
Day 3: Pushing muscles
Day 4: Pulling muscles
Day 5: Pushing muscles
Day 6: Pulling muscles
Day 7: Rest

Repeat.

What I understood from the articles was that this keeps the body in constant anabolic state, which is very important for a natty. Guys who use drugs don't need that, so they can train with a multi-way split.

So, my question is, is this the new thing that every novice should be doing for maximizing muscle growth? Would love to hear arguments for and against.

[SuffolkPunch]

Best? No we aren't in a position to claim that. I would suggest hitting all muscles twice a week or more though.

Apart from that, I don't actually think how you distribute the workload throughout the week is particularly important.

What matters is total workload and following a progressive overload path which is not too easy (you won't progress) or too hard (you'll hit a wall).

Total weekly workload needs to be controlled over time, increases are used as a medium to long term way of keeping the stimulus fresh. When it gets too high, deload and reset.

BTW, I'd be careful with Thibauedaeu, he comes across as somewhat of a faddist. Not suprised he's jumped on this bandwagon. I'd rather go to people with more rigorous scientific outlook who are closer to the primary research - Schoenfeld for example.

[bjorn8320]

I would suggest hitting all muscles twice a week or more though.

Thanks for your reply!
Is it safe to say that the field (consensus) has progressed (in 10 years) in the direction that higher frequency and lower volume is better (for natty bodybuilders)? I'm comparing this to what was back then kind of the gold standard: train one muscle group only once a week.

By the way, if you have some good articles to read about frequency and volume, I'd be interested!

Also, I'm very interested in what type of workout program results in the best growth state (anabolic state?). I assume that this is equivalent to maximizing the amount of testosterone that the body produces?

[SuffolkPunch]

If by higher frequency, you mean more than once a week - definitely yes.

Lower volume? Not necessarily - volume is still the key driver of hypertrophy - but you have to be careful about how you define it.

You can't simply do reps x sets x weight = tonnage. Because the level of exertion (how close to failure you get) has a non linear effect on results. You can do a huge amount of tonnage and stay 5 reps away from failure in every set. This is probably a bad way to train. The sweet spot is probably to stay 1-2 reps from true failure for smaller exercises and 2-3 for major compounds like squat and deadlift.

I can't think of any specific articles, anything by Schoenfeld, Helms, Nuckols, Krieger, Henselmans is a good start.

[bjorn8320]

If by higher frequency, you mean more than once a week - definitely yes.

Lower volume? Not necessarily - volume is still the key driver of hypertrophy - but you have to be careful about how you define it.

You can't simply do reps x sets x weight = tonnage. Because the level of exertion (how close to failure you get) has a non linear effect on results. You can do a huge amount of tonnage and stay 5 reps away from failure in every set. This is probably a bad way to train. The sweet spot is probably to stay 1-2 reps from true failure for smaller exercises and 2-3 for major compounds like squat and deadlift.

I can't think of any specific articles, anything by Schoenfeld, Helms, Nuckols, Krieger, Henselmans is a good start.

Thanks again! Since you clearly seem to know about this stuff, I'm going to bug you a bit more and ask if there are readily available workout programs that you'd recommend for this higher frequency training (each muscle group at least twice a week), so that I could have a program to follow?

Also, do you have an opinion on which workout program type produces the most testosterone in the body (this is roughly the same as maximizing the anabolic state of the body, correct?)
What I mean by this: is it for example best to have workouts every day, with lower volume, than have workouts every other day, with higher volume? Each workout triggers an anabolic state, so should you workout as often as possible then?

[SuffolkPunch]

Depends on your experience level. If you can follow linear progression, we have several routines we recommend in the sticky threads.

Choice of workout doesn't influence testosterone production. There is nothing (natural) you can do about that other than lead a healthy low stress lifestyle and get plenty of sleep.

[bjorn8320]

Choice of workout doesn't influence testosterone production. There is nothing (natural) you can do about that other than lead a healthy low stress lifestyle and get plenty of sleep.

Is there any truth to the claim that training legs more often would lead to higher testosterone and muscle growth? I read that one of the reasons that high frequency training is recommended is that you get to train legs multiple times per week, and this was supposed to have a hormonal effect of some sort, I guess?

[VicDumbbells]

No.

[daudi81]

My hell, people overcomplicate stuff. If you haven't lifted for 10 years you'll benefit mostly from a novice-esque program. You'll make gains on any program as a novice, but that doesn't make it optimal.

I'll make it easy. Just start with Fierce 5 novice program. You'll learn along the way the why's and the how's.

[SuffolkPunch]

Is there any truth to the claim that training legs more often would lead to higher testosterone and muscle growth? I read that one of the reasons that high frequency training is recommended is that you get to train legs multiple times per week, and this was supposed to have a hormonal effect of some sort, I guess?

Hormones are released for many reasons - they are often involved in energy mobilisation - which is what happens when test or GH increases are measured in response to exercise. These only last a few minutes and have zero to do with muscle growth (which happens in the hours / days after training, not during)

[BeginnerGainz]

Is there any truth to the claim that training legs more often would lead to higher testosterone and muscle growth? I read that one of the reasons that high frequency training is recommended is that you get to train legs multiple times per week, and this was supposed to have a hormonal effect of some sort, I guess?

A myth that won’t die

[bjorn8320]

I've already been working out for a couple of months, so I've had time to think about different programs.

Here's a new one I thought I might try. This is higher frequency than my current one. Comments welcome!

Heavy set means going to failure

Day 1: Chest/back
Flat BB bench, 2-3 heavy sets
Pullups, 2-3 heavy sets
Dips, 2-3 heavy
Cable row, 2-3 heavy
Tricep extension, 2-3 heavy

Day 2: Legs
Squat, 2-3 heavy
Hamstring curl, 2-3 heavy
Leg extension, 2-3 heavy
Hamstring/Back extension, 2-3 heavy

Day 3: Shoulders, traps, biceps, abs
BB shoulder press, 2-3 heavy
DB side lateral raises, 2-3 heavy
Deadlifts, 2-3 heavy
Bicep curl, 2-3 heavy
DB shrugs, 2-3 heavy
Abs

Day 4: Chest/back
Incline DB bench, 2-3 heavy sets
Pullups, 2-3 heavy sets
Cable flies, 2-3 heavy
DB row, 2-3 heavy
Tricep extension, 2-3 heavy

Day 5: Legs
Leg press, 2-3 heavy
Hamstring curl, 2-3 heavy
Leg extension, 2-3 heavy
Hamstring/Back extension, 2-3 heavy

Day 6: Shoulders, traps, biceps, abs
DB shoulder press, 2-3 heavy
Cable face pulls, 2-3 heavy
Deadlifts, 2-3 heavy
Bicep curl, 2-3 heavy
DB shrugs, 2-3 heavy
Abs

Day 7: rest


Too intense for a novice? I've aimed at approx. 10 heavy sets per muscle per week. Bis/tris might get slightly more because they are hit with the compound movements, but not sure if this matters.

[Farley1324]

Heavy set means going to failure

Stop doing that

I've already been working out for a couple of months, so I've had time to think about different programs.

Follow a known-good program

[bjorn8320]

Stop doing that

I don't understand, is it bad to have to force the last reps? This is how I've always trained, meaning that I can barely do the last reps in every set.

[Farley1324]

I don't understand, is it bad to have to force the last reps? This is how I've always trained, meaning that I can barely do the last reps in every set.

Stop doing that. Leave a rep or more in the tank.

[bjorn8320]

Stop doing that. Leave a rep or more in the tank.

What's the reason for this? Is this another thing where the consensus has changed over the last 10 years or so? Back then, everyone was doing forced reps as I recall it.

[Farley1324]

What's the reason for this? Is this another thing where the consensus has changed over the last 10 years or so? Back then, everyone was doing forced reps as I recall it.

They weren't.

[air2fakie]

What's the reason for this? Is this another thing where the consensus has changed over the last 10 years or so? Back then, everyone was doing forced reps as I recall it.

Was the consensus back then also for everyone to take a 10-year break from working out?

[bjorn8320]

Was the consensus back then also for everyone to take a 10-year break from working out?

I don't get it. I'm just trying to learn as much as I can. Maybe I picked the wrong forum for asking questions about my program.

[WolfRose7]

I don't get it. I'm just trying to learn as much as I can. Maybe I picked the wrong forum for asking questions about my program.

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/tr...ining-to-fail/

Here's a sensible breakdown

the TL;dr of failure training is, actual failure is very fatiguing, and the actual benefits of taking a set to failure vs 1-2 reps in reserve are minimal.
For harder hitting exercises this can mean that always taking them to failure is actually counter productive as you accumulate to much fatigue compared to stimulus.

[Farley1324]

I don't get it. I'm just trying to learn as much as I can. Maybe I picked the wrong forum for asking questions about my program.

It's dangerous. Going to failure, repeatedly, continuously, on exercises like bench press, squats, and deadlifts is just plain stupid and begging for injury.

It's significantly more fatigue, commonly called CNS fatigue, and requires too much additional recovery, it is not a net benefit.

You are more likely to burn out and stop lifting as a result of the said fatigue. Or because of injuries, whether acute oh **** I snapped something, or overuse type "my ___ is really bothering me lately"

[bjorn8320]

It's dangerous. Going to failure, repeatedly, continuously, on exercises like bench press, squats, and deadlifts is just plain stupid and begging for injury.

It's significantly more fatigue, commonly called CNS fatigue, and requires too much additional recovery, it is not a net benefit.

You are more likely to burn out and stop lifting as a result of the said fatigue. Or because of injuries, whether acute oh **** I snapped something, or overuse type "my ___ is really bothering me lately"

Ok, I can understand that.

But then explain to me something: Why is it that 95% of people in the gym always, and I mean always, have the last rep of their bench press, or their bicep curl, or their tricep extension, look like they can barely make it? Why do people use spotters and tell them that they are going for x reps and that the last one they may not be able to do?

This only happens in my gym?

[Farley1324]

Ok, I can understand that.

But then explain to me something: Why is it that 95% of people in the gym always, and I mean always, have the last rep of their bench press, or their bicep curl, or their tricep extension, look like they can barely make it? Why do people use spotters and tell them that they are going for x reps and that the last one they may not be able to do?

This only happens in my gym?

I do not know or care what the idiots in the gym do.

If I did, the most I would ever squat is 225 lbs using 1/4 range of motion.

PS: Bicep curls and squats/bench/dead are entirely different types of exercises

PPS: People use spotters on bench primarily so they can buddy lift and pretend they benched it when it was really a no chest touch, no complete lock out, ass off the bench, buddy combo of partial ROM bench/upright row

[air2fakie]

I don't get it. I'm just trying to learn as much as I can. Maybe I picked the wrong forum for asking questions about my program.

You’re not really asking questions. The premises of your Qs are all some sort of misstatement or observation you take as a scientific fact until proven otherwise.

[jaxqen]

Was there ever a consensus on anything? Full body vs splits? High reps vs low reps? Failure vs RIR?
Even 10 years ago? I've read many of the threads older than 10 years and there are the same discussions.
Back then, on the forum, there were more users like Dominick, Defiant1, DiamondDelts on the other side.
But the same discussions.

Ok, I can understand that.

But then explain to me something: Why is it that 95% of people in the gym always, and I mean always, have the last rep of their bench press, or their bicep curl, or their tricep extension, look like they can barely make it? Why do people use spotters and tell them that they are going for x reps and that the last one they may not be able to do?

This only happens in my gym?

No, it happens in my gym also.
Especially on bench.
But those guys at my gym are all doing splits. 1 group per week.
I assume they recover slower on that particular muscle group, but it takes a week until they will train it again.
About the role of the spotter... if the bar is dropped, the spotter should curl over 100 kg?


But, like Wolf Rose said, the difference is not that big and going to failure on compunds is fatiguing.
I tried it with deadlifts and I recovered a lot slower.
Going to failure (technical failure & dropsets) works for me with dumbell curls, cable lateral raises or other accesories.

I don't understand, is it bad to have to force the last reps? This is how I've always trained, meaning that I can barely do the last reps in every set.

Did it work?
Did you see results in the mirror?
Did you recover well?
If so, go for it

Like p 2 in Wolf Rose's link says
"2. Training to failure is likely safe. Or, at the very least, there’s no direct evidence that it’s particularly dangerous."

[calvilloIsGod]

My hell, people overcomplicate stuff. If you haven't lifted for 10 years you'll benefit mostly from a novice-esque program. You'll make gains on any program as a novice, but that doesn't make it optimal.

I'll make it easy. Just start with Fierce 5 novice program. You'll learn along the way the why's and the how's.

Man, seriously...

[bjorn8320]

I've already been working out for a couple of months, so I've had time to think about different programs.

Here's a new one I thought I might try. This is higher frequency than my current one. Comments welcome!

Heavy set means going to failure

Day 1: Chest/back
Flat BB bench, 2-3 heavy sets
Pullups, 2-3 heavy sets
Dips, 2-3 heavy
Cable row, 2-3 heavy
Tricep extension, 2-3 heavy

Day 2: Legs
Squat, 2-3 heavy
Hamstring curl, 2-3 heavy
Leg extension, 2-3 heavy
Hamstring/Back extension, 2-3 heavy

Day 3: Shoulders, traps, biceps, abs
BB shoulder press, 2-3 heavy
DB side lateral raises, 2-3 heavy
Deadlifts, 2-3 heavy
Bicep curl, 2-3 heavy
DB shrugs, 2-3 heavy
Abs

Day 4: Chest/back
Incline DB bench, 2-3 heavy sets
Pullups, 2-3 heavy sets
Cable flies, 2-3 heavy
DB row, 2-3 heavy
Tricep extension, 2-3 heavy

Day 5: Legs
Leg press, 2-3 heavy
Hamstring curl, 2-3 heavy
Leg extension, 2-3 heavy
Hamstring/Back extension, 2-3 heavy

Day 6: Shoulders, traps, biceps, abs
DB shoulder press, 2-3 heavy
Cable face pulls, 2-3 heavy
Deadlifts, 2-3 heavy
Bicep curl, 2-3 heavy
DB shrugs, 2-3 heavy
Abs

Day 7: rest


Too intense for a novice? I've aimed at approx. 10 heavy sets per muscle per week. Bis/tris might get slightly more because they are hit with the compound movements, but not sure if this matters.

Since my program was officially rated as sh*t by fellow members, could you please point me to a good high frequency program (each muscle is trained 2 times per week). I don't want it to be too intense, I'm still a novice after a long break. Thanks!

[WolfRose7]

Since my program was officially rated as sh*t by fellow members, could you please point me to a good high frequency program (each muscle is trained 2 times per week). I don't want it to be too intense, I'm still a novice after a long break. Thanks!

http://www.canditotraininghq.com/app...am+%282%29.pdf