Am I Overtraining?

[Small2LessSmall]

I've been getting some feedback from my dad that he thinks I'm overtraining so i came over here for advice. 19 years old, 5'10", 147lbs. Been working out pretty consistently for a year and half aside from a good portion of quarantine. Started 120lbs, 10% bf November 2018, March 2020 was 160 lbs 19% bf, lost some muscle and weight during quarantine resumed training for a month, now as I mentioned 147lbs, 12% bf.
Currently lifting about 10-15% less pre-quarantine, but using the same schedule as before with a few exercise substitutions.

Workout Week:

MONDAY : Push (2-2.5 hours)

CHEST
Bench Press 5 x 6
Incline Dumbbell Press 5 x 8
Upper Chest Cable Flys 3 x 8
Pec Dec Machine 3 x 10

SHOULDERS
Overhead Dumbbell Press 3 x 8
Side Raises 5 x 10
Anterior Delt Machine 3 x 10

TRICEPS
Skull Crushers 5 x 8
Rope Pulldowns 5 x 10
Underhand bar Pulldowns 3 x 10

TUESDAY : Pull (1.5 hours)

BACK
Pull-Ups 3 x 8~10
Lat Pulldowns 5 x 8
Bent-Over Barbell Rows 5 x 6~8
(When I had access to the machine: Machine Rows 3 x 8/ last set burn out)

BICEPS
Bicep Dumbbell Curls 5 x 10
Preacher Curls 5 x 8

FOREARMS
Behind the Back Barbell Wrist Curls 3 x Til I can't
Forearm Wrist Roll Blaster(from amazon) 3 x Til I can't

WEDNESDAY : Legs / Traps (1.5 hours)

LEGS
Squats 5 x 8
Leg Raise Machine 5 x 10
Kickback Machine 5 x 8
Leg Press Machine 3 x 8
Standing Calf Raises 5 x 15-20
Sitting Calf Raises 3 x 20

TRAPS
Barbell Shrugs 5 x 10

THURSDAY : Abs / Cardio

About 45 mins on Abs and 1/2 mile jogging on incline treadmill

FRIDAY: REST

SATURDAY: PUSH (Above)

SUNDAY: PULL (Above)

MONDAY: LEGS (Above)
etc.....
I keep this cycle. I use a light preworkout(100mg caffeine / 5g BCAAs) and I get 7 1/2 hours of sleep everyday. I feel fine and don't feel overtrained, but my ultimate goal is 165-170 with abs. Currently starting a lean bulk (2900-3200 cal) as I didn't enjoy the fat that came with the bulk(4000 cal) to 160lbs. My biceps (32.5 lbs dumbbells 10 reps Post Quarantine (40 Pre-Q) have been been overdeveloped since I first lifted weights, but I for sure fixed my form and don't cheat with them anymore in other muscle group workouts anymore. Finally seeing progress on shoulders although my flexibility (not injuries) absolutely destroys my overhead press (Only can do 30 lbs dumbbells x 5 reps but my front delts are developed ) but I can do 25 lbs on side raises and 30lbs on front raises. Chest has always been the least developed (Max Bench 185lbs x 1 rep, incline dumbbell press 50 lbs each arm x 6 reps, 30 degrees), and triceps (Skullcrusher 45lbs bar x 8 reps) and back (Lat Pulldown 115lbs x 8 reps) are about normal. Legs and calves were getting good pre quarantine (Squat : 225lbs) but now down 25% weight (this is considering I got long legs as if I'm 6' 2" and they are bowed). If you have any recommended improvements to my workout schedule please let me know below and if you read all this thank you and I would greatly appreciate any tips towards reaching my ultimate goal.



EDIT : After advice from the forum, I currently dropped about 15 sets from PUSH day, and a few from the other days. Also, moving the routine to a 6 day PPL Rest PPL routine.

[air2fakie]

Overtraining has specific symptoms - I don't think that's what you mean.

I do think you're doing way more volume than is productive for you, but up to you if you're happy with progress with your lifts and gains.

[SuffolkPunch]

Basically what ^ he said

You might not be overreaching - but if the volume is inappropriately high for your level of advancement, it will mean that you subconsciously pace yourself and are doing work that is not contributing to muscle growth (junk volume). Furthermore, it stops you from being able to add yet more volume which becomes necessary when you adapt to current levels further down the line.

It's also a low frequency routine and you'll likely benefit from hitting everything at least 2x a week instead.

[Ghawk21]

Way more pushing than pulling, 0 hamstring work and minimal leg work (which would explain the poverty squat, 6'2 isn't tall enough to blame your limbs), tonne of junk volume. All the trade marks of someone who should not be doing their own programming. Whatever you're using to measure bf% is probably way off, if its a scale or in-body or handheld machine then its definitely way off(they are wildly inaccurate). If you insist on a PPL then look up Coolcicadas PPL. Much more balanced and manageable volume for someone your level. Also consider something like Fierce 5 novice which is definitely more your level.

[Small2LessSmall]

It's also a low frequency routine and you'll likely benefit from hitting everything at least 2x a week instead.

I use to hit PPL 2x a week on this volume, but then I definitely felt like I was overtraining which makes sense. Moving back to a 2x a week PPL routine ,which exercises in the routine would you recommend I reduce the sets of or remove completely?

[Small2LessSmall]

Way more pushing than pulling, 0 hamstring work and minimal leg work (which would explain the poverty squat, 6'2 isn't tall enough to blame your limbs), tonne of junk volume. All the trade marks of someone who should not be doing their own programming. Whatever you're using to measure bf% is probably way off, if its a scale or in-body or handheld machine then its definitely way off(they are wildly inaccurate). If you insist on a PPL then look up Coolcicadas PPL. Much more balanced and manageable volume for someone your level. Also consider something like Fierce 5 novice which is definitely more your level.

I shouldn't have been making excuses to begin with, but the bigger problem with my legs is not the length but that they are bowed as I mentioned above. Also revision, I misnamed the "Kickback Machine" when I meant the standing hamstring curl machine. 19% bf was at the doctor and I'm estimating I'm 12% bf right now because I can see my abs and obliques. I took a look at Coolcicadas PPL and definitely some key take aways from that program so thanks for showing me that, but recommending Fierce 5 novice to me is just plain disrespect, for my body type, compound movements or not, that volume/only 3 days each week wouldn't do anything for me at this point. I mean I said my chest is the most underdeveloped and this routine only has 3 sets of bench for chest lmfao. But all this aside thanks for responding to the post.

[paulinkansas]

"MONDAY : Push (2-2.5 hours)"

This ^ was all I had to read. Try to condense your workout to 60-75 minutes.

[air2fakie]

I use to hit PPL 2x a week on this volume, but then I definitely felt like I was overtraining which makes sense. Moving back to a 2x a week PPL routine ,which exercises in the routine would you recommend I reduce the sets of or remove completely?

You have 41 sets on Push Day and it takes you 2.5 hrs. You could do 12-16 hard sets on Push day and see better results. There's no point adjusting this by cutting out 2/3 of the routine, even though you're not going to want to hear it.

recommending Fierce 5 novice to me is just plain disrespect, for my body type, compound movements or not, that volume/only 3 days each week wouldn't do anything for me at this point. I mean I said my chest is the most underdeveloped and this routine only has 3 sets of bench for chest lmfao.

You're 19, 5-10, 147 lbs. You think a 2.5 hour workout is good for your lagging chest when it's more likely the reason it's underdeveloped. You shouldn't feel disrespected by the advice people are giving you, as they are trying to help.

[WolfRose7]

I shouldn't have been making excuses to begin with, but the bigger problem with my legs is not the length but that they are bowed as I mentioned above. Also revision, I misnamed the "Kickback Machine" when I meant the standing hamstring curl machine. 19% bf was at the doctor and I'm estimating I'm 12% bf right now because I can see my abs and obliques. I took a look at Coolcicadas PPL and definitely some key take aways from that program so thanks for showing me that, but recommending Fierce 5 novice to me is just plain disrespect, for my body type, compound movements or not, that volume/only 3 days each week wouldn't do anything for me at this point. I mean I said my chest is the most underdeveloped and this routine only has 3 sets of bench for chest lmfao. But all this aside thanks for responding to the post.

I put someone on F5 novice for a comeback blast once, he benched 110kg for reps on it.
Davis hit a state bench record.

what is your bench at the moment?

[Ghawk21]

I shouldn't have been making excuses to begin with, but the bigger problem with my legs is not the length but that they are bowed as I mentioned above. Also revision, I misnamed the "Kickback Machine" when I meant the standing hamstring curl machine. 19% bf was at the doctor and I'm estimating I'm 12% bf right now because I can see my abs and obliques. I took a look at Coolcicadas PPL and definitely some key take aways from that program so thanks for showing me that, but recommending Fierce 5 novice to me is just plain disrespect, for my body type, compound movements or not, that volume/only 3 days each week wouldn't do anything for me at this point. I mean I said my chest is the most underdeveloped and this routine only has 3 sets of bench for chest lmfao. But all this aside thanks for responding to the post.

You can take it however you wish but you have novice numbers across the board. I'm not going to get in dick swinging contest with you so if you don't want advice from people who can A) lift waaaaay more than you and B) have been working out for as long or longer than you've been walking then whats the point in asking.

[Small2LessSmall]

You can take it however you wish but you have novice numbers across the board. I'm not going to get in dick swinging contest with you so if you don't want advice from people who can A) lift waaaaay more than you and B) have been working out for as long or longer than you've been walking then whats the point in asking.

Maybe I think I know somethings that I really don't, but please explain to me how doing bench 3x5 only 3 times every two weeks is going to help my chest more than what I'm doing right now.

[Small2LessSmall]

You have 41 sets on Push Day and it takes you 2.5 hrs. You could do 12-16 hard sets on Push day and see better results. There's no point adjusting this by cutting out 2/3 of the routine, even though you're not going to want to hear it.

I want to hear it. How should my push day look like in your opinion. Also like I told Ghawk, maybe I think I know somethings that I really don't, but I don't understand how only 3-5 sets for a muscle as big as the chest can build size on all the parts of the chest; please explain this.

[Ghawk21]

Maybe I think I know somethings that I really don't, but please explain to me how doing bench 3x5 only 3 times every two weeks is going to help my chest more than what I'm doing right now.

Progressive overload over time on all your lifts. Right now you have a wack of junk volume that isn't helping. You're also leaving no room for increasing volume when you do start to plateau and run into problems. Do you want to spend 4 hours in the gym doing 100 sets per muscle group? You're doing more work than guys on all sorts of illegal help/ butt injections. Quality work>quantity work.

[Small2LessSmall]

Progressive overload over time on all your lifts. Right now you have a wack of junk volume that isn't helping. You're also leaving no room for increasing volume when you do start to plateau and run into problems. Do you want to spend 4 hours in the gym doing 100 sets per muscle group? You're doing more work than guys on all sorts of illegal help/ butt injections. Quality work>quantity work.

Alright that makes a lot more sense, honestly thanks for the advice, I shouldn't have gotten butthurt over your first post.

[air2fakie]

I want to hear it. How should my push day look like in your opinion. Also like I told Ghawk, maybe I think I know somethings that I really don't, but I don't understand how only 3-5 sets for a muscle as big as the chest can build size on all the parts of the chest; please explain this.

I'll pass other than to say your Push routine should look exactly like one in an established program, but you can believe what you want it's fine by me. You shouldn't be programming your own routine at all and shouldn't even be doing a PPL - see below for an independent assessment on results of your program.

I've been getting some feedback from my dad that he thinks I'm overtraining... 19 years old, 5'10", 147lbs. ... Chest has always been the least developed

[Ghawk21]

Alright that makes a lot more sense, honestly thanks for the advice, I shouldn't have gotten butthurt over your first post.

The important thing is you were willing to listen and that's more than most people that post here. Happy lifting.

[letsfixthatform]

"MONDAY : Push (2-2.5 hours)"

This ^ was all I had to read. Try to condense your workout to 60-75 minutes.

This 1000 times. Also your volume is very high for the rep ranges you are using imo. I feel like too many people fall victim to this “balls to the wall” mentality that they get from a lot of big names in the industry. The problem is what they fail to realize is that all their idols are on quite a bit of gear so they can of course handle a lot more volume and spend more time lifting. It is not so cut and dry but that is the condensed version. I would highly recommend reading up on block style periodization. Block periodization would be beneficial for rotating the focus throughout the entire macrocycle to ensure you are not trying to spread yourself too thin so to speak.

There were also some great points made about your push/pull ratio. The best way to develop great shoulders and chest is to have a well developed back. Your back is your base and anchor point for the majority of your pressing motions.

[Small2LessSmall]

This 1000 times. Also your volume is very high for the rep ranges you are using imo. I feel like too many people fall victim to this “balls to the wall” mentality that they get from a lot of big names in the industry. The problem is what they fail to realize is that all their idols are on quite a bit of gear so they can of course handle a lot more volume and spend more time lifting. It is not so cut and dry but that is the condensed version. I would highly recommend reading up on block style periodization. Block periodization would be beneficial for rotating the focus throughout the entire macrocycle to ensure you are not trying to spread yourself too thin so to speak.

There were also some great points made about your push/pull ratio. The best way to develop great shoulders and chest is to have a well developed back. Your back is your base and anchor point for the majority of your pressing motions.

I've never given much thought to periodization, but I read up block style periodization. My only goal at the moment is hypertrophy; will block style periodization benefit me more in comparison to just constantly training for hypertrophy? Also, thanks everyone here I realized that my routine has too much volume even for training for hypertrophy.

[letsfixthatform]

I've never given much thought to periodization, but I read up block style periodization. My only goal at the moment is hypertrophy; will block style periodization benefit me more in comparison to just constantly training for hypertrophy? Also, thanks everyone here I realized that my routine has too much volume even for training for hypertrophy.

Periodization is necessary for growth. Going into the gym without having a long term plan is the worst thing you can do. You need to plan your workouts in advance if you are trying to grow. I would highly suggest researching effective periodization techniques before planning a routine.

Also from your use of the word hypertrophy it seems like you may be a little off on what hypertrophy is. Going into the gym and killing yourself day after day spending hours in there is not really a recipe for hypertrophy. More so for overtraining and CNS issues. Remember that you have to be a student of your craft, I encourage my clients to read up on studies and techniques for themselves to better understand the science behind hypertrophy, limit strength and recovery/nutrition.

[WolfRose7]

Periodization is necessary for growth. Going into the gym without having a long term plan is the worst thing you can do. You need to plan your workouts in advance if you are trying to grow. I would highly suggest researching effective periodization techniques before planning a routine.

Also from your use of the word hypertrophy it seems like you may be a little off on what hypertrophy is. Going into the gym and killing yourself day after day spending hours in there is not really a recipe for hypertrophy. More so for overtraining and CNS issues. Remember that you have to be a student of your craft, I encourage my clients to read up on studies and techniques for themselves to better understand the science behind hypertrophy, limit strength and recovery/nutrition.

You encourage clients to understand the science behind hypertrophy yet make false claims that periodisation is necessary for hypertrophy?

Worrying.

[MarcusFitPro]

It does seem like you're doing alot, but how do you feel? Are you getting the results you're looking for?

[Small2LessSmall]

Periodization is necessary for growth. Going into the gym without having a long term plan is the worst thing you can do. You need to plan your workouts in advance if you are trying to grow. I would highly suggest researching effective periodization techniques before planning a routine.

Also from your use of the word hypertrophy it seems like you may be a little off on what hypertrophy is.

Can you elaborate a bit? Why is going to the gym without a long term plan like periodization bad? I thought hypertrophy is the increase of muscle size not strength, how's my definition off? You're correct about spending too much time in the gym and I cut about 15 sets out of the push day and few out of the other days to reduce volume to avoid future problems people mentioned here.

[Small2LessSmall]

It does seem like you're doing alot, but how do you feel? Are you getting the results you're looking for?

Honestly, I never felt like I was stalling. Even when I was 160 and bulking 4000kcals I was still making gains and moving up in weight, but I think everyone here agrees I had too much volume so I just reduced the number of sets each day (mostly push day) and I'm just going to replace that volume with intensity in my workouts. The only thing that bothers me is how all my friends reached benching 225 so easily, when I couldn't even get close to hitting it after more than a year of consistent training and clean bulking for 6 months, so maybe that's a tell tale sign of my routine right there. I just blamed it on me starting from such a weak point (Started with 75lbs). I'm pretty sure a lot of my friends are taking SARMs too tho so maybe that's it and my progress scale is just normal, but all my gym partners(natty or not)can hit 225.

[SuffolkPunch]

Can you elaborate a bit? Why is going to the gym without a long term plan like periodization bad? I thought hypertrophy is the increase of muscle size not strength, how's my definition off? You're correct about spending too much time in the gym and I cut about 15 sets out of the push day and few out of the other days to reduce volume to avoid future problems people mentioned here.

All else being equal, a larger muscle is stronger. So hypertrophy produces strength.

There is a sticky thread on this topic.

There is no evidence that periodisation produces faster hypertrophy outcomes - but it's conceivable that it could lead to a routine lasting longer before you need to modify it or switch to a different one. All Pros Simple Beginners Routine is an example of this.

[letsfixthatform]

All else being equal, a larger muscle is stronger. So hypertrophy produces strength.

There is a sticky thread on this topic.

There is no evidence that periodisation produces faster hypertrophy outcomes - but it's conceivable that it could lead to a routine lasting longer before you need to modify it or switch to a different one. All Pros Simple Beginners Routine is an example of this.

Do you have any studies you could cite for this? Everything I have ever read on the subject or had to be tested on for best results for strength and hypertrophy gain point to some form of periodization as being essential for progressive overload to produce maximal results.

[WolfRose7]

Do you have any studies you could cite for this? Everything I have ever read on the subject or had to be tested on for best results for strength and hypertrophy gain point to some form of periodization as being essential for progressive overload to produce maximal results.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6351492/

[SuffolkPunch]

This lengthy article discusses all the available data on the subject for both strength and hypertrophy outcomes:

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/periodization-data/

[OldFartTom]

Candito hq is selling T-shirts now

[letsfixthatform]

The author of the article admits strength gains are superior in periodized programs. He says the science does not show significant effects on hypertrophy however he recommends some form of periodization towards the end of the article even advocating different approaches. My question is, what is the alternative? Go to the gym and only track volume?

Josh Bryant and countless others advocate for periodized training and people like that train professional athletes. Are they all wrong? The average hypertrophy range is recommended between 60 to 80 percent(depending on where you source your information) of your 1rm. 60-80 percent of 315 pounds is greater than 60-80 percent of 150 lbs. Greater strength gains means more weight can be used in the Recommended hypertrophy rep ranges (6-15, again, depending on your source). More weight used=more fiber recruitment=better response. Do you disagree with this?

I do thank you for pointing me to the study, it was very informative even if the author speculates a bit at the end.

[WolfRose7]

The author of the article admits strength gains are superior in periodized programs. He says the science does not show significant effects on hypertrophy however he recommends some form of periodization towards the end of the article even advocating different approaches. My question is, what is the alternative? Go to the gym and only track volume?

Josh Bryant and countless others advocate for periodized training and people like that train professional athletes. Are they all wrong? The average hypertrophy range is recommended between 60 to 80 percent(depending on where you source your information) of your 1rm. 60-80 percent of 315 pounds is greater than 60-80 percent of 150 lbs. Greater strength gains means more weight can be used in the Recommended hypertrophy rep ranges (6-15, again, depending on your source). More weight used=more fiber recruitment=better response. Do you disagree with this?

I do thank you for pointing me to the study, it was very informative even if the author speculates a bit at the end.

Your original claim was "Periodization is necessary for growth"

you also seem to be conflating programming and periodisation, you can have non-periodized programming

since you seem up for debate - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZkRd88ymeA

I'm not sure we can take those % for hypertrophy, 3-30 reps all appear to be fine for hypertrophy responses, especially if you use protocols like myo reps.
I don't think load or even progressive overload is strictly necessary for hypertrophy, though hypertrophy should invetiably lead to progressive overload as a side effect

For strength I think the argument is a little clearer, however traditional periodisation still has some apparent weaknesses, Kiely covers some of this, as do the lads at data driven strength doing their PHDs under Dr Mike Zourdos