Split explanation

[Calikid32190]

Alright guys I’m pretty knowledgeable about nutrition and bodybuilding but there’s still things I’m learning and have a question.

So I finished up fierce 5 novice and got my lifts to way better numbers then I had before and was doing full body 3 days a week and I love working out full body 3 days a week but is working out 4 days a week on the split better and will it provide more gains?

I ask this because I looked at the intermediate version of fierce 5 and I’m not seeing any deadlifts besides Romanians and I feel the standard deadlift works a lot better. On top of that where I would normally have deadlifts twice a week with the middle day being back squats and then the following week it would switch and I would have back squats twice a week with the middle day being deadlifts.

On the intermediate it’s only once for back squat and once for a Romanian deadlift. It seems like splits would be less work then a fully body routine so why is it that splits are considered intermediate?

Also if I switch over to intermediate I’m supposed to decrease workload from the novice program by 20%-30% but I feel if I did that I would lose muscle because in this case he keeps very similar rep and set numbers as the novice but adds a day. For example my deadlift is at 225 if I decrease that by 30% it would have me at 155 still doing 3x5 which is the exact same setup on the novice 3x5 but I would be doing 65 pounds less for the same workload. Or am I supposed to keep the same numbers from the novice program and just bring it over to the intermediate?

I heard that wouldn’t be a good idea because I’m at almost max right now on the novice program so working out on close to max was something that I was told is not a smart idea. I’m just wanting to make sure I’m getting the best results and workout possible so any advice would be appreciated.

[TolerantLactose]

Also if I switch over to intermediate I’m supposed to decrease workload from the novice program by 20%-30% but I feel if I did that I would lose muscle because in this case he keeps very similar rep and set numbers as the novice but adds a day. For example my deadlift is at 225 if I decrease that by 30% it would have me at 155 still doing 3x5 which is the exact same setup on the novice 3x5 but I would be doing 65 pounds less for the same workload.

Where did you get this from?

[ECGordyn]

Where did you get this from?

I suggested he lower the weight *if he switched to a higher volume program*. He was looking at Viking's in that thread which is about twice the volume of F5.

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=178750741

See my post #8.

You won't lose muscle lowering weight and increasing reps because your overall stimulus will be the same or higher. 215 lbs x 15 reps = 3,225 total pounds. 3,225 pounds / 32 reps = 100 pounds for each rep. So, squatting 70% of 215 is squatting 150 pounds for 32 reps = 4,800 total pounds. That's a 50% increase in total workload because you lowered the weight 30% and did twice as many reps. If 150 pounds is too easy, rock on. Add 10 pounds for the next week and do 5,120 pounds the next week. That process will build muscle, don't worry.

[Calikid32190]

I suggested he lower the weight *if he switched to a higher volume program*. He was looking at Viking's in that thread which is about twice the volume of F5.

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=178750741

See my post #8.

So if do the intermediate fierce 5 it would be different? I wouldn’t want to lower the weight anymore? I was looking at Vikings but one of the things I noticed is he has deadlifts so low. 2x6 is only 12 and if I lowered the weight by 30% it might not be beneficial on that specific lift because on fierce 5 it’s 3x5 so I would be missing 3 reps. I’m not sure why he has deadlifts so low. If anything I feel deadlifting is easier than the back squat that is 4x8.

[ECGordyn]

Should If do the intermediate fierce 5 it would be different? I wouldn’t want to lower the weight anymore?

If the set and rep scheme is the same as the novice, then use the same weight you use in the novice. My advice to you before was about Viking's, which is much higher volume than F5.

[Calikid32190]

If the set and rep scheme is the same as the novice, then use the same weight you use in the novice. My advice to you before was about Viking's, which is much higher volume than F5.

Thanks that makes sense and why is it that split is considered intermediate and fully body is typically novice? I feel working all parts of your body the 3 days you’re at the gym beat working out 4 days split up upper/lower

[WolfRose7]

Thanks that makes sense and why is it that split is considered intermediate and fully body is typically novice? I feel working all parts of your body the 3 days you’re at the gym beat working out 4 days split up upper/lower

Its just a hang up of 80s bodybuilding culture and the 5x5 full body programs thrown about for novices for years.

Really split is not connected to level of training

[air2fakie]

Thanks that makes sense and why is it that split is considered intermediate and fully body is typically novice? I feel working all parts of your body the 3 days you’re at the gym beat working out 4 days split up upper/lower

Look more at the overall volume/exercises you're doing over the course of the week and progression scheme if you want to compare - the actual split is less important assuming you're comparing 2 sensibly thought out programs. Volume is usually a little higher and progression a little slower on intermediate programs.

You can also do full body 4, 5, 6 days/week if you like that set up and want to add more volume as you progress.

[Calikid32190]

Look more at the overall volume/exercises you're doing over the course of the week and progression scheme if you want to compare - the actual split is less important assuming you're comparing 2 sensibly thought out programs. Volume is usually a little higher and progression a little slower on intermediate programs.

You can also do full body 4, 5, 6 days/week if you like that set up and want to add more volume as you progress.

So more volume won’t translate to better gains on intermediate? Basically what do I do if I feel I’ve gotten as far as I can on the novice fierce 5 program? I’m noticing I’m sore a little longer due the weight being heavier at the level I’m at. So to get gains following a good program the main thing is to increase volume? When we say volume do we want more sets or reps? Fierce 5 has been low reps 5 at most but the progression is fast due to increases every week.

[air2fakie]

So more volume won’t translate to better gains on intermediate? Basically what do I do if I feel I’ve gotten as far as I can on the novice fierce 5 program? I’m noticing I’m sore a little longer due the weight being heavier at the level I’m at. So to get gains following a good program the main thing is to increase volume? When we say volume do we want more sets or reps? Fierce 5 has been low reps 5 at most but the progression is fast due to increases every week.

There's no "I feel I've gotten as far as I can". If you're still able to progress more or less as prescribed on F5 novice stick with it. If you've seen good gains and it's gotten stagnant with progression, then switch to F5 U/L.

Stop analyzing the intermediate program with misconceptions as if the person who created it erroneously made the next step in his own series to be a less advanced program than the novice. If you want to do it, just do it. I think it even tells you how to swap in DLs if you prefer doing those as you said above.

[Calikid32190]

There's no "I feel I've gotten as far as I can". If you're still able to progress more or less as prescribed on F5 novice stick with it. If you've seen good gains and it's gotten stagnant with progression, then switch to F5 U/L.

Stop analyzing the intermediate program with misconceptions as if the person who created it erroneously made the next step in his own series to be a less advanced program than the novice. If you want to do it, just do it. I think it even tells you how to swap in DLs if you prefer doing those as you said above.

I’m at the point where I’m stalling out and not able to increase the weight every week like you’re supposed to in fierce 5 which is why I’m wondering what to do next. What would you recommend for muscle building not so much strength training? More sets?more reps?

[Calikid32190]

Its just a hang up of 80s bodybuilding culture and the 5x5 full body programs thrown about for novices for years.

Really split is not connected to level of training

What program are you doing? Is it on the forums?

[air2fakie]

I’m at the point where I’m stalling out and not able to increase the weight every week like you’re supposed to in fierce 5 which is why I’m wondering what to do next. What would you recommend for muscle building not so much strength training? More sets?more reps?

To make it simple, for you, I recommend F5 UL for both muscle building and strength training.

[TolerantLactose]

What program are you doing? Is it on the forums?

You lack the knowledge to properly implement more advanced programming. Stick with an established program.

[Calikid32190]

To make it simple, for you, I recommend F5 UL for both muscle building and strength training.

Ok I’ll start this Monday and do I want to carry over the same weight I stopped at on novice then?

[Calikid32190]

You lack the knowledge to properly implement more advanced programming. Stick with an established program.

You would be correct which is why I’m asking and trying to gain knowledge. I have my nutrition on point and I’ve done a lot of research on my own about weight lifting but there’s so much info out there and I’m trying to understand what’s best and correct. I gained about 10 pounds in 5 months while doing fierce 5 because I wanted to lean build so 0.5 a week. Even then though I’ve seen my BF% go up by 2% even if the bf% that I started with 5 months ago wasn’t correct the scale has still shown 2% increase. I had my definition super visible at 135 and now I’m at 145 and can see it some but nowhere near as much compared to 135. Will I be able to get that back when I go on my cut? My goal is to be 155 so I’m going from 135 to 155 first then will cut down to 145 then from 145 go to 165 then cut down to 155 and stay there until I decide to go to 170.

[air2fakie]

Ok I’ll start this Monday and do I want to carry over the same weight I stopped at on novice then?

Up to you - since your volume is going up a bit you could take off 10-20% to ease into it - but you can always knock it down after the first week if you keep it the same and it seems too heavy. Or you could go even lower and just increase quicker the first couple of weeks if it's too light.

I wouldn't worry too much about it, it's ok to deload a bit and make some adjustments early when switching to a new program.

[ECGordyn]

Ok I’ll start this Monday and do I want to carry over the same weight I stopped at on novice then?

Probably, but first, What are your numbers for all the lifts? Just give your working weights.

[air2fakie]

What program are you doing? Is it on the forums?

See his signature for his basic setup. It likely involves customization, volume management and autoregulation that wouldn't be helpful for you to think about right now since you're so hung up on sets, reps and what weight to use.

[Calikid32190]

Probably, but first, What are your numbers for all the lifts? Just give your working weights.

Deadlift: 65, 225
OHP: 65, 85
Seated leg curl: 40, 125
Lat pull down: 80, 120
Bicep curl:15, 25
Cable crunch: 33, 140

Squat: 70, 215
Bench press: 80, 135
Pendlay row: 65, 120
Face pull: 10, 90
Seated calf raise: 10, 120
Triceps push down: 10, 100


My biggest struggles were my OHP and bench press.

[Calikid32190]

Up to you - since your volume is going up a bit you could take off 10-20% to ease into it - but you can always knock it down after the first week if you keep it the same and it seems too heavy. Or you could go even lower and just increase quicker the first couple of weeks if it's too light.

I wouldn't worry too much about it, it's ok to deload a bit and make some adjustments early when switching to a new program.

I think I may take off 20% just go get used to the new program. It sucks to deload because I always worry about losing muscle when doing less weight. Like how people thought for the longest time on a cut you wanted to lower the weight which isn’t true because by doing that on a cut you tell your body you don’t need the muscle you built up and it will get rid of it on a cut as well. I eat 2800 calories currently and it has been enough to get me the 0.5 gain a week that I’m going after.

[ECGordyn]

Deadlift: 65, 225
OHP: 65, 85
Seated leg curl: 40, 125
Lat pull down: 80, 120
Bicep curl:15, 25
Cable crunch: 33, 140

Squat: 70, 215
Bench press: 80, 135
Pendlay row: 65, 120
Face pull: 10, 90
Seated calf raise: 10, 120
Triceps push down: 10, 100


My biggest struggles were my OHP and bench press.

You shouldn't take off any weight if you're going to run F5 UL. Only take off weight if you run a higher volume program like Viking's. You've still got a lot of room for growth on novice programs if your tdee is below 2800 calories.

[air2fakie]

I think I may take off 20% just go get used to the new program. It sucks to deload because I always worry about losing muscle when doing less weight. Like how people thought for the longest time on a cut you wanted to lower the weight which isn’t true because by doing that on a cut you tell your body you don’t need the muscle you built up and it will get rid of it on a cut as well. I eat 2800 calories currently and it has been enough to get me the 0.5 gain a week that I’m going after.

You don't lose muscle that easily, esp with the increase with volume and progression from where you start at.

[Calikid32190]

You shouldn't take off any weight if you're going to run F5 UL. Only take off weight if you run a higher volume program like Viking's. You've still got a lot of room for growth on novice programs if your tdee is below 2800 calories.

Even if I’ve been working out for almost 2 years I still have a lot of room for growth? Granted the first year I made a lot of mistakes with form and nutrition. Didn’t have the knowledge I have now and was able to find things out by trial and error. I’ll keep the same weight but what happens when I keep failing the weight? Like how many times do I try it before I take it down? 225 on my deadlift is taxing on my legs and I’m not recovering as fast but I’ve never lifted 225 before. Basically if I carry over the weight and keep failing at them what do I do? Since I’m sure I’ll be close to maxing with some of my lifts like back squat and deadlift. Also my calorie intake is 2800 C 30g F 221g and P 175g. On weekends those numbers are inverted for carb ups.

[Calikid32190]

You don't lose muscle that easily, esp with the increase with volume and progression from where you start at.

This is good to know and puts my mind at ease. Will I be able to get back my super defined body when I was at 135 when I cut? I could see my abs crazy and I had the V still kinda have the V but it’s getting harder to see my abs and I’m only 10 pounds heavier. I want to weigh more but have the definition I had at 135

[air2fakie]

This is good to know and puts my mind at ease. Will I be able to get back my super defined body when I was at 135 when I cut? I could see my abs crazy and I had the V still kinda have the V but it’s getting harder to see my abs and I’m only 10 pounds heavier. I want to weigh more but have the definition I had at 135

I have no idea, as I don't know what you looked like then or now (no pics please), or predict what you're going to do in the future. But you can bulk and cut for sure. Just follow the program and stop worrying so much - you'll stress yourself out and your CNS will shut down.

[ECGordyn]

Even if I’ve been working out for almost 2 years I still have a lot of room for growth? Granted the first year I made a lot of mistakes with form and nutrition. Didn’t have the knowledge I have now and was able to find things out by trial and error. I’ll keep the same weight but what happens when I keep failing the weight? Like how many times do I try it before I take it down? 225 on my deadlift is taxing on my legs and I’m not recovering as fast but I’ve never lifted 225 before. Basically if I carry over the weight and keep failing at them what do I do? Since I’m sure I’ll be close to maxing with some of my lifts like back squat and deadlift. Also my calorie intake is 2800 C 30g F 221g and P 175g. On weekends those numbers are inverted for carb ups.

Come on, man, you're going haywire. You've got plenty of good advice from several people in your threads. Take it and run with it, you'll do fine.

Rate of progression, not time spent lifting. Didn't I say that in your other thread?

What's your TDEE, not calories you consume? If you eat as much as you use, then you're growing muscle slower.

Davis has reset and deload protocol in his original threads.

/thread

[Calikid32190]

Come on, man, you're going haywire. You've got plenty of good advice from several people in your threads. Take it and run with it, you'll do fine.

Rate of progression, not time spent lifting. Didn't I say that in your other thread?

What's your TDEE, not calories you consume? If you eat as much as you use, then you're growing muscle slower.

Davis has reset and deload protocol in his original threads.

/thread

It looks like 2468 is my TDEE at 145 pounds. So I can deload multiple times and that’s ok or is there a time where I say it’s time to move on?

[WolfRose7]

What program are you doing? Is it on the forums?

Currently average to savage 2 by Greg Nuckols with my own tweaks.

After that I'll likely try out some Reverse Periodisation ideas I've got, possibly in a conjugate style with Nuckols hypertrophy set up or similar 3 days and reverse periodisation 2 days.

Iron culture have some good podcasts on programming for hypertrophy if you'd like to check them out, the thing about true post novice training that it becomes a lot more individualised, tailored too the person.

A lot of the by the book "intermediate" templates are more like late novice, or people naturally tweak them a lot to suit themselves.

[WolfRose7]

Even if I’ve been working out for almost 2 years I still have a lot of room for growth? Granted the first year I made a lot of mistakes with form and nutrition. Didn’t have the knowledge I have now and was able to find things out by trial and error. I’ll keep the same weight but what happens when I keep failing the weight? Like how many times do I try it before I take it down? 225 on my deadlift is taxing on my legs and I’m not recovering as fast but I’ve never lifted 225 before. Basically if I carry over the weight and keep failing at them what do I do? Since I’m sure I’ll be close to maxing with some of my lifts like back squat and deadlift. Also my calorie intake is 2800 C 30g F 221g and P 175g. On weekends those numbers are inverted for carb ups.

Change program, don't reset but take a manageable weight, not too close to failure. 2 reps in reserve at least for conv deadlift imo.

Consider using a secondary lighter assistance light pause deadlifts, or even use pause as your main variation do higher rep or myo hypertrophy type work with a banded leg curl, Glute ham raise, etc