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Thread: Program help

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    Registered User Calikid32190's Avatar
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    Program help

    Alright guys I’m finishing up with fierce 5 novice as I’m stalling out. I was able to get a lot of major lifts into the 200s and I weigh currently 145 pounds. I’m needing to know what’s next after strength training.

    For my first year I did Vikings bare bones and I could never get past 135 pounds on my back squat. Then I switched and did fierce 5 for 5 months and can now do 215 pounds on my back squat so I learned strength training comes first before bodybuilding.

    With that being said on the major lifts in fierce 5 it’s 3x5 and since I pushed to where I couldn’t increase my numbers anymore do I bring the same numbers I finished on to a new program? For example if I bring 215 pounds of my back squat to Vikings bare bones where his program for back squat is 4x8. So I would have to move the weight 32 times at 215 pounds when in fierce 5 I was only doing it 15 times at that weight.

    If not do I lower the weight when I switch to a program that isn’t strength training because of the added reps? Also is it now time to revisit Vikings now that I’ve got the strength or is there a plan you guys can recommend me that’s next? Preferably fully body as I love doing 3 days a week. Thank you guys
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    Any novice program would suit you at this level, don't overthink it. Fierce 5 would still work if you're eating enough.

    Almost all programs start you lower than your max so that you have time to adjust to the program, and so that you don't stall quickly. If you do Viking's FB, lower the training weight maybe 20-30% and work back up from there. You're right that 15 reps is very different from 32 reps, and you'll need a couple weeks to adjust.

    On Viking's, you can increase 5 or 10 lbs each week. If it's way too easy at first, increase 10 lbs for the next week and then reassess.
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    The normal course of progression would be to move to the Fierce 5 intermediate upper/lower. You're still a novice though and at 145 lbs you'll need to gain weight to reach intermediate.
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    Originally Posted by TAWS6 View Post
    The normal course of progression would be to move to the Fierce 5 intermediate upper/lower. You're still a novice though and at 145 lbs you'll need to gain weight to reach intermediate.
    Out of curiosity, and I know there's not really EXACT markers when judging experience, how do you determine the training age of an individual? Weight gained while properly and consistently training? Overall weight? Strength level relative to weight? Overall strength?

    Overall it doesn't matter too much in respect to training in my eyes. If you're doing x amount of volume and progressing, then you should continue to use that volume while increasing load until you can't progress by this metric anymore, regardless of what your experience level may or may not be. That's the strategy I use at least. But the answer to my question would likely be a lot more beneficial to someone who hasn't gotten that kind of thing figured out yet.
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    Originally Posted by Nicksosure1 View Post
    Out of curiosity, and I know there's not really EXACT markers when judging experience, how do you determine the training age of an individual? Weight gained while properly and consistently training? Overall weight? Strength level relative to weight? Overall strength?
    Rate of progression. Beginners progress weekly, intermediates progress monthly or bi-monthly, advanced progress yearly or multi-monthly. Assuming these trainees are eating and sleeping enough.

    It only really matters when you're moving from one stage to the next and wondering why the gains slowed down. Sometimes it's just the body's natural development and it's not a cause for panic or changing something drastic.
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    Originally Posted by Nicksosure1 View Post
    Out of curiosity, and I know there's not really EXACT markers when judging experience, how do you determine the training age of an individual? Weight gained while properly and consistently training? Overall weight? Strength level relative to weight? Overall strength?

    Overall it doesn't matter too much in respect to training in my eyes. If you're doing x amount of volume and progressing, then you should continue to use that volume while increasing load until you can't progress by this metric anymore, regardless of what your experience level may or may not be. That's the strategy I use at least. But the answer to my question would likely be a lot more beneficial to someone who hasn't gotten that kind of thing figured out yet.
    Yeah progression ability doesn’t lie. I tend to go by years of progressive training while eating correctly. Novice 6 months to a year, intermediate year 2-3, advanced I’d say is at the 3-4 year mark. By that time a male who has been doing everything right has probably gained around 30 lbs of muscle and progression will be extremely slow until he reaches his genetic limit.
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    Originally Posted by ECGordyn View Post
    Any novice program would suit you at this level, don't overthink it. Fierce 5 would still work if you're eating enough.

    Almost all programs start you lower than your max so that you have time to adjust to the program, and so that you don't stall quickly. If you do Viking's FB, lower the training weight maybe 20-30% and work back up from there. You're right that 15 reps is very different from 32 reps, and you'll need a couple weeks to adjust.

    On Viking's, you can increase 5 or 10 lbs each week. If it's way too easy at first, increase 10 lbs for the next week and then reassess.
    Currently I’m eating 2800 calories. I’m hitting my minimums and I’m doing the anabolic diet. I love eating fats and proteins so it fits for me and on the weekends I don’t mind eating carbs. So I hear mixed things about strength training and I’ve researched it a lot but there doesn’t seem to be a definitive answer. The question is can you build muscle on strength training with such low reps? Most strength training programs stay in the low rep range but the weight moves up quick like fierce 5. Or do you switch to a muscle building program? Is muscle building just a change in the reps for the most part? Like 6-9 rep range is for muscle building and 3-5 rep range is strength? Also if I lower my weight by 30% won’t I lose the muscle I gained? I always hear you don’t want to drop the weight while on a cut or you’ll lose muscle but since I’m not on a cut would the muscle just turn to fat?
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    Originally Posted by Calikid32190 View Post
    Currently I’m eating 2800 calories. I’m hitting my minimums and I’m doing the anabolic diet. I love eating fats and proteins so it fits for me and on the weekends I don’t mind eating carbs. So I hear mixed things about strength training and I’ve researched it a lot but there doesn’t seem to be a definitive answer. The question is can you build muscle on strength training with such low reps? Most strength training programs stay in the low rep range but the weight moves up quick like fierce 5. Or do you switch to a muscle building program? Is muscle building just a change in the reps for the most part? Like 6-9 rep range is for muscle building and 3-5 rep range is strength? Also if I lower my weight by 30% won’t I lose the muscle I gained? I always hear you don’t want to drop the weight while on a cut or you’ll lose muscle but since I’m not on a cut would the muscle just turn to fat?
    If you want to go for 32 reps with 215 pounds, then go for it, power to ya. But you'd do better to keep the long view in mind, which means lower the weight and steadily increase it over some weeks. Pushing too close to your max too often is actually counterproductive because it fatigues you so much. Better to keep a reasonable intensity (weight) and crank out reps in order to build volume.

    Try a set of 8 squats with 215. If you get 8 reps, then do another set of 8 at 215. And so on until you get through 4 sets. If you get 32 reps, awesome. If you don't get 32, then you'll understand what I mean about lowering to a reasonable intensity.

    You won't lose muscle lowering weight and increasing reps because your overall stimulus will be the same or higher. 215 lbs x 15 reps = 3,225 total pounds. 3,225 pounds / 32 reps = 100 pounds for each rep. So, squatting 70% of 215 is squatting 150 pounds for 32 reps = 4,800 total pounds. That's a 50% increase in total workload because you lowered the weight 30% and did twice as many reps. If 150 pounds is too easy, rock on. Add 10 pounds for the next week and do 5,120 pounds the next week. That process will build muscle, don't worry.

    Strength training and hypertrophy training aren't much different for beginners. Later you can choose method to use most of the time, for now, just keep building muscle and practice good technique. "Strength training" is largely neurological anyway, training the brain and CNS to control heavy weight.
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    Originally Posted by ECGordyn View Post
    If you want to go for 32 reps with 215 pounds, then go for it, power to ya. But you'd do better to keep the long view in mind, which means lower the weight and steadily increase it over some weeks. Pushing too close to your max too often is actually counterproductive because it fatigues you so much. Better to keep a reasonable intensity (weight) and crank out reps in order to build volume.

    Try a set of 8 squats with 215. If you get 8 reps, then do another set of 8 at 215. And so on until you get through 4 sets. If you get 32 reps, awesome. If you don't get 32, then you'll understand what I mean about lowering to a reasonable intensity.

    You won't lose muscle lowering weight and increasing reps because your overall stimulus will be the same or higher. 215 lbs x 15 reps = 3,225 total pounds. 3,225 pounds / 32 reps = 100 pounds for each rep. So, squatting 70% of 215 is squatting 150 pounds for 32 reps = 4,800 total pounds. That's a 50% increase in total workload because you lowered the weight 30% and did twice as many reps. If 150 pounds is too easy, rock on. Add 10 pounds for the next week and do 5,120 pounds the next week. That process will build muscle, don't worry.

    Strength training and hypertrophy training aren't much different for beginners. Later you can choose method to use most of the time, for now, just keep building muscle and practice good technique. "Strength training" is largely neurological anyway, training the brain and CNS to control heavy weight.
    Thank you for the advice and I’m excited to try Vikings again and the way you explained it is very easy to understand that just because you decrease the weight but increase the reps you can still gain and actually end up doing more work than when at the heavier weight. What’s the reasoning for doing 5 reps? I feel it really helped me build strength and you need strength first to be able to lift heavy weight.
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    Originally Posted by Calikid32190 View Post
    Thank you for the advice and I’m excited to try Vikings again and the way you explained it is very easy to understand that just because you decrease the weight but increase the reps you can still gain and actually end up doing more work than when at the heavier weight. What’s the reasoning for doing 5 reps? I feel it really helped me build strength and you need strength first to be able to lift heavy weight.
    You're welcome.

    5s are just a good balance of training and practicing technique with solid intensities and some hypertrophic benefits. 5s don't take too long, and they let you hit each set hard.
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    Originally Posted by TAWS6 View Post
    The normal course of progression would be to move to the Fierce 5 intermediate upper/lower. You're still a novice though and at 145 lbs you'll need to gain weight to reach intermediate.
    Why does how much you weigh matter? I’m curious because there’s people that weigh 150-155 and can lift some crazy amounts of weight. When I started out I was 135 so I’ve gained about 10 pounds and it looks like my bf% has went up by 2% even if it’s not the correct number it still allows me to see the % increase. So out of the 10 pounds 2 pounds would be fat? My goal is to get to 155 then cut to 145 then from 145 get to 165 then to 155 and stay at 155. What’s the sweet spot for weight gain before you should go on a cut? 20 pounds? It looks like I’ve gained more than 2 pounds of fat when I look at the 2 pics. Top is current at 145 and bottom is when I was 135. When I cut down will I be able to get my definition back?


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    Its an individual thing and the individuals body fat level is a huge factor. In this case YOUR weight matters because right now your body fat is so low that you won't be able to eat at caloric maintenance and gain muscle. You will need a small surplus of calories. You look good man but if you want to gain muscle in your situation you will need to bulk. I like being around 14-15 percent but a lot of people cut to 12 and bulk to 15. Hope that helps.
    Last edited by TAWS6; 08-03-2020 at 09:47 AM.
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