Lifting without a program?

[Matt11222]

I've been hitting the gym since 2018, like most people I didn't have a clue back then. In the time since then I've read up on the necessities of lifting and would like to think I know what I'm doing. The question I have is, is it bad to work out without a dedicated program? The way I do it is chest/triceps, back/biceps, legs/shoulders etc, but I just don't plan out all my specific exercises for those days. I always start with the big compounds like bench/deadlift/squat and move on to isolations at the end. Usually spend 1-2 hours in the gym and work out until the muscles are absolutely fried or I'm too fatigued.

tldr - not planning every single exercise out for muscle group days, bad idea?

[SuffolkPunch]

Generally speaking, yes it is bad to not have a program.

You will have trouble keeping tabs on:
1) balance - tendancy to over emphasise favourite muscle groups and de prioritise less interesting ones (legs, back, posterior chain). Could lead to poor proportions or even joint pain
2) progressive overload - people either tend to do too much and hit a wall or just go through the motions and not progress. You need some kind of plan
3) volume - this is the key metric for long term effectiveness of a program. Do too little and you will plateau. Do too much and you paint yourself into a corner recovery wise.

Some people can make intuitive training work - they tend to outwork everyone else and are often gifted with high recovery ability. This is a long way from ideal for the average trainee IMO.

[TolerantLactose]

work out until the muscles are absolutely fried or I'm too fatigued.

If that's your metric, you're still like most people.

[Matt11222]

Generally speaking, yes it is bad to not have a program.

You will have trouble keeping tabs on:
1) balance - tendancy to over emphasise favourite muscle groups and de prioritise less interesting ones (legs, back, posterior chain). Could lead to poor proportions or even joint pain
2) progressive overload - people either tend to do too much and hit a wall or just go through the motions and not progress. You need some kind of plan
3) volume - this is the key metric for long term effectiveness of a program. Do too little and you will plateau. Do too much and you paint yourself into a corner recovery wise.

Some people can make intuitive training work - they tend to outwork everyone else and are often gifted with high recovery ability. This is a long way from ideal for the average trainee IMO.

I guess I do have a 'program' of sorts, but it stops at dedicated muscle groups days - like chest and tris, back and biceps etc - I just don't plan out what exercises I do on the day. I always start out with the big compounds on each day, like bench, but after that I decide what exercise to do next - for example I might finish benching and decide to do some skullcrushers, whereas the next chest/tri day I might do chest flyes instead. I always plan to incorporate progressive overload in my lifts too

[AlexSays]

I guess I do have a 'program' of sorts, but it stops at dedicated muscle groups days - like chest and tris, back and biceps etc - I just don't plan out what exercises I do on the day. I always start out with the big compounds on each day, like bench, but after that I decide what exercise to do next - for example I might finish benching and decide to do some skullcrushers, whereas the next chest/tri day I might do chest flyes instead. I always plan to incorporate progressive overload in my lifts too

Major movements and important compounds definitely need planned rep/set/weight progression and you should remain consistent with the movements you are using for a certain period

Small isolations and accessory movements should be limited anyway and in my experience are pretty interchangeable but you should still try and stick to a certain number of exercises (eg 2 isolations) and consistent rep and set numbers

[Matt11222]

Major movements and important compounds definitely need planned rep/set/weight progression and you should remain consistent with the movements you are using for a certain period

Small isolations and accessory movements should be limited anyway and in my experience are pretty interchangeable but you should still try and stick to a certain number of exercises (eg 2 isolations) and consistent rep and set numbers

Oh, yeah I do decide how many reps/sets I'm doing. I guess my idea of a program is a bit miscontrued. If my goal is strength, which it was before lockdown, I'll bench x weight as a max, then the week after bench the same, see how it feels, and attempt to go slightly heavier if I can. If I can't, I'll try do 3-5 reps slightly heavier than I did the week before. I don't head to the gym and just do 16 reps for 1 set, then move on to some tricep pushdowns or whatever, I just mean not having every single exercise planned out beforehand and having your own decisive freedom on what relevant exercises you want to do that day.

[SuffolkPunch]

I guess I do have a 'program' of sorts, but it stops at dedicated muscle groups days - like chest and tris, back and biceps etc - I just don't plan out what exercises I do on the day. I always start out with the big compounds on each day, like bench, but after that I decide what exercise to do next - for example I might finish benching and decide to do some skullcrushers, whereas the next chest/tri day I might do chest flyes instead. I always plan to incorporate progressive overload in my lifts too

I usually argue that the layout of a "split" is one of the least important aspects of programming - although it does help to avoid problem (1) above - assuming you apply roughly equal workloads to each bodypart and don't skip days you don't like.

Progression doesn't have to be complicated. I generally use double progression and use a weight 2-3 times before increasing it. I either add reps to the first or later sets depending on what I did last time. When I up the weight, I reset the reps to a lower number which can be reached without training to failure.

As for volume, you can just count total number of work sets done.

[Matt11222]

I usually argue that the layout of a "split" is one of the least important aspects of programming - although it does help to avoid problem (1) above - assuming you apply roughly equal workloads to each bodypart and don't skip days you don't like.

Progression doesn't have to be complicated. I generally use double progression and use a weight 2-3 times before increasing it. I either add reps to the first or later sets depending on what I did last time. When I up the weight, I reset the reps to a lower number which can be reached without training to failure.

As for volume, you can just count total number of work sets done.

The thing about progression is that when I was strength training from January-March I was adding nearly 5kg onto my deadlift every two weeks. Is that a case of noob gains, or is that an average rate of progression?

Side question while I'm here - I'm getting some pretty bad pain in my left shoulder ever since I started doing pullups/dead hangs. I feel it click/crack when I'm pulling up and other times it's just sore in the morning. Hereditarily bad shoulder joint, bad form, or is that normal?

[SuffolkPunch]

Pain is never normal. You shouldn't do any exercise if it hurts during training.

However, the exercise you feel it on isn't necessarily the one that caused it. It's probably more likely to be an imbalance (remember point 1 above) caused by an excess of pressing vs. pulling. Usually the neglected muscle groups are: lateral and posterior delt, mid back, scapular retraction/elevation and external rotation exercises.