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  1. #121
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    Originally Posted by snailsrus View Post
    you are very unlikely to gain strength much at all while losing fat.
    What a poor mindset to give to someone who's practically still a beginner.

    Countless of studies have shown strength gains with fat loss at his stats.

    Heck, even Layne Norton and other advanced athletes have reported how they're still able to gain some strength while losing fat.

    Recommended reading:
    https://mennohenselmans.com/gain-mus...the-same-time/

    And yeah if you start a cut while believing you won't be able to gain strength that will likely become your experience.
    Last edited by Mrpb; 07-16-2020 at 10:06 PM.
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  2. #122
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    What a poor mindset to give to someone who's practically still a beginner.

    Countless of studies have shown strength gains with fat loss at his stats.

    Heck, even Layne Norton and other advanced athletes have reported how they're still able to gain some strength while losing fat.

    Recommended reading:
    https://mennohenselmans.com/gain-mus...the-same-time/

    And yeah if you start a cut while believing you won't be able to gain strength that will likely become your experience.
    Maybe I missed it but hasn’t he been working out for a year?

    If your dropping weight (not just fat) eating at a large deficit and dropping weight the rate op wants to, he’s going to be spinning his wheels going no where trying to cut and gain at the same time.

    When cutting maintaining strength as much possible is a more realistic goal than losing weight and gaining strength and muscle at the same time
    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Not to mention, poor squat form is usually due to compensating for muscle weaknesses like buckling knees or using excessive back flexing to force the weight up... if anything that usually causes false GAINS in strength because you’d be recruiting muscles you shouldn’t be... so the lack of progress I imagine makes even less sense.
    oh yes learned that the hard way when I injured my lower back and how weak it really was with the right form
    Last edited by snailsrus; 07-16-2020 at 10:53 PM.
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  3. #123
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    Originally Posted by snailsrus View Post
    Maybe I missed it but hasn’t he been working out for a year?
    On and off, while switching programs, with suboptimal sleep and diet.


    Plenty of studies have shown fat loss with strength gains in people with similar lifting experience and stronger than him. See the link in my previous post.


    If your dropping weight (not just fat) eating at a large deficit and dropping weight the rate op wants to, he’s going to be spinning his wheels going no where.
    This is why we recommend against fast fat loss.

    But the point is: if you tell someone upfront that it's impossible to gain strength in deficit and they believe that to be true, it's more likely to become their reality.

    If you don't want to read Menno's article read this study: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Elite_Athletes

    Tl/dr: people stronger than OP gaining strength in deficit.

    And there's many studies like that.
    Last edited by Mrpb; 07-16-2020 at 10:55 PM.
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  4. #124
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    I’ve always been on the weaker side I guess. Not sure why but always felt that way anyways.

    I’m a lot stronger now than I was but like
    I said, weekly gains came for a few weeks (I’ll have to jog through my notes but maybe couple months) and then stopped.

    I’m loosing 1lb and sometimes 1.2lbs per week while maintaining my lifts on AllPro.

    From what I understand, that’s not atall aggressive. Or is it? At my weight, that’s 0.7% of bodyweight.

    I recently changed from 1g protien to 0.8g protien per lb of bodyweight and upped my carbs by the same amount (mostly added fruit for what it’s worth).

    And I get 65g fats minimum. Rest is carbs.
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  5. #125
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    I’ve always been on the weaker side I guess. Not sure why but always felt that way anyways.

    I’m a lot stronger now than I was but like
    I said, weekly gains came for a few weeks (I’ll have to jog through my notes but maybe couple months) and then stopped.

    I’m loosing 1lb and sometimes 1.2lbs per week while maintaining my lifts on AllPro.

    From what I understand, that’s not atall aggressive. Or is it? At my weight, that’s 0.7% of bodyweight.

    I recently changed from 1g protien to 0.8g protien per lb of bodyweight and upped my carbs by the same amount (mostly added fruit for what it’s worth).

    And I get 65g fats minimum. Rest is carbs.
    That all sounds good.

    If maintaining strength is the best you can do that's fine for now.

    Try to optimise your diet and sleep.

    Losing ~1 pound per week is fine. Take a diet break now and then. This will help mentally and physically.
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  6. #126
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    On and off, while switching programs, with suboptimal sleep and diet.


    Plenty of studies have shown fat loss with strength gains in people with similar lifting experience and stronger than him. See the link in my previous post.



    This is why we recommend against fast fat loss.

    But the point is: if you tell someone upfront that it's impossible to gain strength in deficit and they believe that to be true, it's more likely to become their reality.

    If you don't want to read Menno's article read this study: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Elite_Athletes

    Tl/dr: people stronger than OP gaining strength in deficit.

    And there's many studies like that.
    i sleep way less than op 0 affect on my training. If op was at a higher weight I would think it’s realistic. There are many variables on why op can and someone else can.

    That said with how low his lifts are even in a cut I could see gains with strength if he is willing to really push himself in the gym with a routine he sticks to while increasing volume/ and or strength. The studies you posted I am not at the gym with them or op comparing intensity or consistency or rate of progression. I think op needs to do more than sleep more and eat less. If he is inconsistent with a routine he won’t see results. I can do my whole routine but if I am only doing it at 75% of the weight I normally do and don’t add more volume or weight back up to 100% I will lose strength / see no gains

    My sleep is average 4 hours
    https://i.imgur.com/x01QneG.png

    Normally it’s a more consistent 4 hours but last night I had to catch up for earlier in the week

    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    I’ve always been on the weaker side I guess. Not sure why but always felt that way anyways.

    I’m a lot stronger now than I was but like
    I said, weekly gains came for a few weeks (I’ll have to jog through my notes but maybe couple months) and then stopped.

    I’m loosing 1lb and sometimes 1.2lbs per week while maintaining my lifts on AllPro.

    From what I understand, that’s not atall aggressive. Or is it? At my weight, that’s 0.7% of bodyweight.

    I recently changed from 1g protien to 0.8g protien per lb of bodyweight and upped my carbs by the same amount (mostly added fruit for what it’s worth).

    And I get 65g fats minimum. Rest is carbs.
    i mean you can eat more fats and proteins if you please and that’s actually reasonable weight loss
    Last edited by snailsrus; 07-16-2020 at 11:10 PM.
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  7. #127
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    Originally Posted by snailsrus View Post
    you are very unlikely to gain strength much at all while losing fat.

    Your lifts regardless should be much higher with what weight you are at. You do not have to change your diet at all for lifts to go up or to gain muscle.

    My husband doesn’t work out at all and is heavier with a higher BMI and when he tries to teach his boys to lift on my power rack he can squat 200 easy for reps, bench 160ish for reps and dl 250. Which really he could massively improve on but again he doesn’t lift, his form is pretty bad and he doesn’t want to learn so I just let him be. That said your routine and intensity must be off. My best guess is you’re not pushing yourself hard enough in your routine to cause a release of lactic acid where fibers tear and build back stronger/bigger.

    Are you sore after any of your workouts or fatigued? Your lifts are so low even with crap form they should be higher
    Some people just aren't that strong and don't have great genetics for strength - myself included. I've been lifting consistently for 18 months and my lifts are in my sig - some better than OP's, some worse (and I'm at a higher bodyweight). I work out consistently and plenty hard - usually 1-2 reps shy of failure for most sets. Plenty of gains still to be had of course, but my newbie gains are definitely behind me, having already gained nearly 20lb of muscle.
    Age: 36
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    Bench - 5 x 62.5kg (138lb), 16 x 50kg (110lb)
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    Pendlay row - 8 x 50kg (110lb)
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  8. #128
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    Originally Posted by snailsrus View Post

    Are you sore after any of your workouts or fatigued? Your lifts are so low even with crap form they should be higher
    About this...not sore too bad atall. I used to get a lot of DOMS In my legs during my Cut but I suppose I’m now used to It and it’s not bad atall.

    However there is a “Empty” or weakness Or fatigue feeling In my muscles the day of and sometimes day after workout. Like they’d like more energy / fuel. Usually eating carbs makes that feeling go away but if my calories budget is done for the day I’m outta luck. I usually just ride it out.

    Any suggestion about “listening to the body”? Should I just eat more carbs (like one to two bananas or couple slices killer bread sandwich or Cup Or two berries is what’s needed and helps but I don’t go over my calories and sometimes just go to bed with that feeling)
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  9. #129
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    Originally Posted by snailsrus View Post
    i sleep way less than op 0 affect on my training. If op was at a higher weight I would think it’s realistic. There are many variables on why op can and someone else can.
    My advice is based on science, not on personal anecdotes. Science shows poor sleep leads to less LBM gains. It may be a reason why OP seems to have a harder time gaining muscle.

    If you're getting 4h sleep you'd probably benefit from more sleep. You may have a specific gene called DEC 1, also called familial short sleepers. But even then you'd benefit from more sleep. That's based on science again, not personal anecdotes.
    Last edited by Mrpb; 07-17-2020 at 12:27 AM.
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  10. #130
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    If I’m not using proper form and technique (like on squat), I’m not going to be able to progress in my lifts.

    I watched those YouTube videos. Lots of work to do. I wish gyms were open-i would probably have hired a coach
    No need for a coach, get some videos up. This forum has some pretty good lifters who can help you with cueing and technique but we need a video. We can debate all the other things for days but if your technique isn't addressed it won't matter if you're getting 4 or 8 hours of sleep or X carbs, X fats, X protein /day.
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  11. #131
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    I forgot to ask OP, but what libido? Have you ever had hormone levels checked?
    The power of carbs compels me!
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  12. #132
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    Originally Posted by Ghawk21 View Post
    No need for a coach, get some videos up. This forum has some pretty good lifters who can help you with cueing and technique but we need a video. We can debate all the other things for days but if your technique isn't addressed it won't matter if you're getting 4 or 8 hours of sleep or X carbs, X fats, X protein /day.
    I’ll find a way to edit out my face and get videos up this weekend.

    You know a good app to do that on iPhone?

    Thanks
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    I forgot to ask OP, but what libido? Have you ever had hormone levels checked?
    Haven’t gotten hormones checked no issues with libido. Ready to go no homo
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    Originally Posted by Ghawk21 View Post
    I'm going to assume form is an issue or at least part of the issue.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEy5WFr-CDA
    Chad Wesley Smith has the 5 pillars of squats, deadlifts(sumo and conventional), and bench press. Check em out.
    The squat series was amazing. I implemented some of his cues today in my workout and had amazing squats. Haven’t felt this natural in a long while. Specially the setup.

    I’ve always read BREATH INTO THE BELLY. Or take a big breath before breaking at the knees.

    The way he explained, 100% understood and got it and back felt straight (instead of Butt sticking out kinda and having that curve) and did not bounce forward as much out of the hole.

    REPPED!!
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    The squat series was amazing. I implemented some of his cues today in my workout and had amazing squats. Haven’t felt this natural in a long while. Specially the setup.

    I’ve always read BREATH INTO THE BELLY. Or take a big breath before breaking at the knees.

    The way he explained, 100% understood and got it and back felt straight (instead of Butt sticking out kinda and having that curve) and did not bounce forward as much out of the hole.

    REPPED!!
    I thought you said you already fixed your squat before?
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    I thought you said you already fixed your squat before?
    I knew you’d say that

    You learn something new every day I suppose.

    I’ll be uploading my videos when I can edit them. Hopefully you can check em out.

    I thought I was breathing into the belly, but holding your waist and breathing in and feeling the waist expand, that’s like BOOM yea that’s what he’s asking to do.

    I was already breathing in, but felt the “360 head popping pressure“ for the first time
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    I knew you’d say that

    You learn something new every day I suppose.

    I’ll be uploading my videos when I can edit them. Hopefully you can check em out.

    I thought I was breathing into the belly, but holding your waist and breathing in and feeling the waist expand, that’s like BOOM yea that’s what he’s asking to do.

    I was already breathing in, but felt the “360 head popping pressure“ for the first time
    I mean the easiest cue for me is just bracing like im about to get punched in the stomach
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    If after all this time your squat is still only 115 lb there's also the chance you may just not be cut out for squatting. The idea that you must squat is just short sighted. Plenty of other good leg exercises. Leg press with leg curls for example.

    Here's a good article by Lyle
    https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle...s-for-big-legs

    While many take it as an article of faith that all trainees must squat, the reality is far different. Only a handful of athletes truly must squat and that’s because the movement is part of their competition. But for everyone else, squats are an optional movement. And factually, some simply are not built to squat well. And if their goal is simply getting bigger legs, in many cases it may be better for them to avoid squatting and choose a movement such as the leg press instead.
    Squats have some benefits for the core muscle of course but you can achieve those with other exercises too.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    If after all this time your squat is still only 115 lb there's also the chance you may just not be cut out for squatting. The idea that you must squat is just short sighted. Plenty of other good leg exercises. Leg press with leg curls for example.

    Here's a good article by Lyle
    https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle...s-for-big-legs



    Squats have some benefits for the core muscle of course but you can achieve those with other exercises too.
    My only caveat would be that, similar to the squat, I constantly see people not going deep enough on leg press. They let the weight come down like 6 inches before executing the concentric motion.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    My only caveat would be that, similar to the squat, I constantly see people not going deep enough on leg press. They let the weight come down like 6 inches before executing the concentric motion.
    I see that a lot too. But like you I also see a lot of people squatting above parallel.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    I see that a lot too. But I also see a lot of people squatting above parallel.
    Yup, precisely my point, just to say that he should carry over the same attention to form on leg press that he is attempting on squats because leg movements are easy to skimp on when it comes to form.
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    The weirdest thing I've seen a lot in several gyms is people doing these plate loaded leg press machines when your back is on the floor and you're pressing up: they're collecting almost every weight in the gym, loading the machine up with something like 500 lb or more and then they're doing a 2 inch range of motion. Quite bizarre.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    The weirdest thing I've seen a lot in several gyms is people doing these plate loaded leg press machines when your back is on the floor and you're pressing up: they're collecting almost every weight in the gym, loading the machine up with something like 500 lb and then they're doing a 2 inch range of motion. Quite bizarre.
    I think they assume that other people are impressed by them simply having weights on the bar... nevermind they have no leg development ;o)

    I'm sure I could probably squat 3 times my bodyweight if I only moved downward 5 inches!
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    I think they assume that other people are impressed by them simply having weights on the bar... nevermind they have no leg development ;o)
    Well yeah I had the same thought but it's not like they have no leg development. Maybe even the short ROM can give a decent training effect although not optimal.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Well yeah I had the same thought but it's not like they have no leg development. Maybe even the short ROM can give a decent training effect although not optimal.
    It probably also effects more of the muscles you don't see as much, like glutes and hamstrings, since those are what become more active in the later/lower points of the leg press/squat motion. They could probably get OK stimulation on certain parts of the quads but lack in the glute/ham.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    If after all this time your squat is still only 115 lb there's also the chance you may just not be cut out for squatting. The idea that you must squat is just short sighted. Plenty of other good leg exercises. Leg press with leg curls for example.

    Here's a good article by Lyle
    https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle...s-for-big-legs



    Squats have some benefits for the core muscle of course but you can achieve those with other exercises too.
    I workout in my garage and don’t have a leg press.

    I think I’m not cut out for squats due to upper torso / lower torso length. My pants sit at my hip and my belly button is 6 inches above there. Not sure wtf
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    I mean the easiest cue for me is just bracing like im about to get punched in the stomach
    That’s the cue I used to follow till now and the BRACED feeling you get breathing Into the stomach and then tensing the belly is totally different.

    The punch brace has your abs retracted towards the back almost.

    The breathing into belly and bracing feels more like stomach is bloated as fuk and you’re making sure it stays stuck out while creating pressure all around your core - abs, sides and back. Feels a lot more secure.

    Watch that 5 pillar series YouTube videos of you don’t know what I’m talking about
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    So far I’m blaming my lack of progress to me trying to add weight to the bar when I was maybe not ready and also not resetting at the right times.

    On squat and bench it was probably the form.

    Deadlift was moving along as I would do resets but it would take a couple resets to move up in weight.

    That tells me my body may respond better to intermediate progression even though I’m a weakling.

    After cutting on AllPro, it’ll be bulk on AllPro. If I’m not able to progress cycle to cycle, I’ll jump to intermediate programming
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    That’s the cue I used to follow till now and the BRACED feeling you get breathing Into the stomach and then tensing the belly is totally different.

    The punch brace has your abs retracted towards the back almost.

    The breathing into belly and bracing feels more like stomach is bloated as fuk and you’re making sure it stays stuck out while creating pressure all around your core - abs, sides and back. Feels a lot more secure.

    Watch that 5 pillar series YouTube videos of you don’t know what I’m talking about
    My squat form/approach doesn't need fixing... i know the tactics ;o)
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    If after all this time your squat is still only 115 lb there's also the chance you may just not be cut out for squatting. The idea that you must squat is just short sighted. Plenty of other good leg exercises. Leg press with leg curls for example.

    Here's a good article by Lyle
    https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle...s-for-big-legs

    Squats have some benefits for the core muscle of course but you can achieve those with other exercises too.
    I've often figured I'm in this group and would benefit from doing leg presses, but I work out in my home gym and have no intention of splashing out for a leg press machine. At the moment my leg work is front squats, good mornings, conventional deadlifts, Bulgarian Split squats and calf raises.

    Wonder if OP is in the 'long femur short torso club' like me? Regardless, if I had access to a leg press, I would still squat. I expect the extra quad growth would translate to a bigger squat.
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