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  1. #31
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    You don't have to do all your cutting at once.
    Gotcha about the 24 hour fasts. Won’t do. Will continue my 500 daily deficit and continue loosing that 1lb per week.

    Issue is I don’t want to cut below 157lbs. And I’m still above 20% bodyfat. I’ve been above 20% since 200lbs.

    I look the same in pictures for the last 10lbs. Have lost inches on the waist but overall pics looks the same.

    I wonder if I’m loosing muscle?

    Also I wonder how I should go about increasing weight back up to 175lbs and then cut again?

    Would nutrition partitioning / p ratio totally screw me over and I’ll gain mostly fat? Wanna break through this skinnyfat curse for real without getting any skinnier.

    If I choose to gain weight, should I aim for 100 or 200 surplus? I tried 250 for a few months and felt as if I gained mostly fat.
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  2. #32
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    I'm trying to load your pictures but it's not working at the moment.

    Cutting is the right course of action if fat loss is your goal.
    Pics are in my profile.

    Goal is to look more muscular and less skinny fat. Goal #2 is NOT to be skinny.

    I guess I’d rather be muscular fat than skinny or skinnyfat.

    Best course of action?
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    Pics are in my profile.

    Goal is to look more muscular and less skinny fat. Goal #2 is NOT to be skinny.

    I guess I’d rather be muscular fat than skinny or skinnyfat.

    Best course of action?
    Just saw your pictures.

    If you can make consistent strength progress on a good routine while staying around the same weight you would eventually achieve your goal.

    If you can't, cutting body fat would be the next best option but you'll likely end up skinny for a while.

    Your body fat is quite high IMO so dropping some is a good idea IMO.
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  4. #34
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    So looking at the pics, they look almost the same even as the weight fluctuates a bit.

    Does that mean I’m loosing muscle when I cut?
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  5. #35
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    Gotcha about the 24 hour fasts. Won’t do. Will continue my 500 daily deficit and continue loosing that 1lb per week.

    Issue is I don’t want to cut below 157lbs. And I’m still above 20% bodyfat. I’ve been above 20% since 200lbs.

    I look the same in pictures for the last 10lbs. Have lost inches on the waist but overall pics looks the same.

    I wonder if I’m loosing muscle?

    Also I wonder how I should go about increasing weight back up to 175lbs and then cut again?

    Would nutrition partitioning / p ratio totally screw me over and I’ll gain mostly fat? Wanna break through this skinnyfat curse for real without getting any skinnier.

    If I choose to gain weight, should I aim for 100 or 200 surplus? I tried 250 for a few months and felt as if I gained mostly fat.
    That's exactly my point. You don't have to drop to 157. You could drop 5-10 lbs then spend a couple of months on slow mass gain.

    If you didn't get weaker, you probably didn't lose muscle.

    You are probably overhinking stuff about P ratio. If you aren't lean when you do mass gain, all it means is don't use a large surplus (you probably never have to do this anyway).
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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    That's exactly my point. You don't have to drop to 157. You could drop 5-10 lbs then spend a couple of months on slow mass gain.

    If you didn't get weaker, you probably didn't lose muscle.

    You are probably overhinking stuff about P ratio. If you aren't lean when you do mass gain, all it means is don't use a large surplus (you probably never have to do this anyway).
    Cool. This is the light at the end of the tunnel that I was hoping I’d see.

    How much of a surplus should I aim for? Maintenance did not do chit for me on fierce 5 - I know that much.

    Should I do, 100 surplus, 200? Point is, I’d like to get max muscle gains while I’m not cutting.
    So for max muscle gains, how much of a surplus should a fatty be running? I did 250 surplus for a 3 months and felt like I gained a lot of fat though
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  7. #37
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    Cool. This is the light at the end of the tunnel that I was hoping I’d see.

    How much of a surplus should I aim for? Maintenance did not do chit for me on fierce 5 - I know that much.

    Should I do, 100 surplus, 200? Point is, I’d like to get max muscle gains while I’m not cutting.
    So for max muscle gains, how much of a surplus should a fatty be running? I did 250 surplus for a 3 months and felt like I gained a lot of fat though
    For a novice lifter, you should be able to add weight to the bar at maintenance - if you were unable to, I think it's more likely to be due to other factors (sleep, form issues etc) rather than a lack of calories.
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    In my opinion you've got the wrong focus: you're spending too much time worrying about the amount of calories you eat instead of worrying about getting stronger on the main lifts in the medium rep ranges.
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  9. #39
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    Originally Posted by RapidFail View Post
    For a novice lifter, you should be able to add weight to the bar at maintenance - if you were unable to, I think it's more likely to be due to other factors (sleep, form issues etc) rather than a lack of calories.
    What about that “cannot gain muscle in a deficit” and “cannot gain muscle at maintenance”?

    Sleep is a bit of a problem likely but I do get over 6 hours every night. Close to 7 being average. 8 hours on the weekends.

    I did try running maintenance for about 6 months total (off and on) and I did get a bit leaner but weight on the bar did not increase too much.

    I can try reducing my deficit also but then they say it’s most effective to cut and bulk instead of spinning wheels at maintenance.

    I don’t care for muscular efficiency / neural gains - it’s not my goal to be a strongman and deadlift 500lbs. It’s muscle gains / aesthetics that I’m after.

    Analysis paralysis?

    So once I get to my goal weight of 157, I can do maintenance or slight surplus. I’m trying to figure out what that slight surplus should be? 1% weight gain per month would equal to 1.6lbs per month or 190 calorie a day.

    Sounds fair or should the surplus be more or less?
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  10. #40
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    In my opinion you've got the wrong focus: you're spending too much time worrying about the amount of calories you eat instead of worrying about getting stronger on the main lifts in the medium rep ranges.
    I am eating 500 deficit and maintaining strength / very slightly gaining strength

    I’m not getting mad stronger but I’m not loosing strength either.

    WHAT I LEARNT IS - MAINTENANCE = spinning wheels. And I’m trying to avoid doing it anymore.
    I ALSO LEARNT: To gain strength I need to be in a surplus. But I’m also fat / skinnyfat. So I’m stumped wtf to do.

    So far I’m leaning towards a slight surplus cuz maintenance did not do jack for me - I tried that for several months and felt like I looked the same. Heck I’m working damn hard, tracking calories, loosing and gaining weight as per my calories eaten and expected results. One thing that’s not happening is my body changing. It looks the same still. Just slight larger / smaller based on if I gained weight or lost weight.
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  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    WHAT I LEARNT IS - MAINTENANCE = spinning wheels. And I’m trying to avoid doing it anymore.
    I ALSO LEARNT: To gain strength I need to be in a surplus. But I’m also fat / skinnyfat. So I’m stumped wtf to do.
    You mean you learned this by experience or did you learn it because other people told you so?

    If the former, why are you asking us how much surplus you need? Wouldn't you know that by yourself?

    Anyway, like I said, I think you'll definitely benefit from dropping body fat, even though that doesn't fit directly your goal.
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  12. #42
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    I am eating 500 deficit and maintaining strength / very slightly gaining strength

    I’m not getting mad stronger but I’m not loosing strength either.

    WHAT I LEARNT IS - MAINTENANCE = spinning wheels. And I’m trying to avoid doing it anymore.
    I ALSO LEARNT: To gain strength I need to be in a surplus. But I’m also fat / skinnyfat. So I’m stumped wtf to do.

    So far I’m leaning towards a slight surplus cuz maintenance did not do jack for me - I tried that for several months and felt like I looked the same. Heck I’m working damn hard, tracking calories, loosing and gaining weight as per my calories eaten and expected results. One thing that’s not happening is my body changing. It looks the same still. Just slight larger / smaller based on if I gained weight or lost weight.
    Try getting more of your carbs in a preworkout meal to fuel training. This will make for better lifting sessions.
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  13. #43
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    I am eating 500 deficit and maintaining strength / very slightly gaining strength

    WHAT I LEARNT IS - MAINTENANCE = spinning wheels. And I’m trying to avoid doing it anymore.
    These two sentences contradict each other. 0 is a much larger number than -500 so I find it unlikely that you'd achieve nothing at maintenance. This may be more down to measurement and perception.

    But run a 200 cal surplus if you are concerned.
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  14. #44
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    You mean you learned this by experience or did you learn it because other people told you so?

    If the former, why are you asking us how much surplus you need? Wouldn't you know that by yourself?

    Anyway, like I said, I think you'll definitely benefit from dropping body fat, even though that doesn't fit directly your goal.
    I learnt it both ways. That is the reason why I started a bulk at 164lbs @ 250 surplus and when I reached 171lbs, I started a cut at 500 deficit. Currently 161lbs and cut is happening at a lil over 1lb per week.

    I’ll continue my cut another month and switch back to a slow bulk even though I’ll be high body fat still. Smh

    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Try getting more of your carbs in a preworkout meal to fuel training. This will make for better lifting sessions.
    K thx. Will do. My lifting sessions are mostly good and I don’t feel drained out unless that sleep was messed up the night before
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  15. #45
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    These two sentences contradict each other. 0 is a much larger number than -500 so I find it unlikely that you'd achieve nothing at maintenance. This may be more down to measurement and perception.

    But run a 200 cal surplus if you are concerned.
    On fierce 5, my lifts were not improving while I was at maintenance.

    I will be slowly increasing my calories once I reach my target weight of 157lbs. That way I should have one AllPro cycle at close to maintenance that way. Will see how that goes. If I pass the next cycle at maintenance, I’ll try another cycle at maintenance...if not, I’ll do a 200 surplus.

    I’m concerned that gains at maintenance will only be neural gains.
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    You should be able to gain in a deficit, at maintenance and in a surplus. There is something seriously wrong in your programming (or hormonal profile??) if you can't gain at maintenance.
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    If you care at all about aesthetics you should not care about going under your abritrary weight limit because you will look much better at 12% with the muscle you have than 20% with a lot more.

    If all you care about is strength, you can eat 5000 calories a day and become a powerlifter. But if you want to recomp your body, train hard and eat in a deficit and I promise you that you will look a lot better
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    Originally Posted by alec935 View Post
    You should be able to gain in a deficit, at maintenance and in a surplus. There is something seriously wrong in your programming (or hormonal profile??) if you can't gain at maintenance.
    I’m following AllPro.

    I’m a newbie lifts wise but I’ve been working out for a few months now.

    What could be wrong with the programming? I’m at a loss here.

    I’m Busting my ass in the gym and lifting to failure as I increase reps on AllPro week by week (program calls for it). Comes test week (12 rep week), I end up failing. I could get 12 reps on 1st but not on the second set.
    Last edited by TryingBB; 07-14-2020 at 12:30 PM.
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    I’m following AllPro.

    I’m a newbie lifts wise but I’ve been working out for a few months now.

    What could be wrong with the programming? I’m at a loss here.

    I’m Busting my ass in the gym and lifting to failure as I increase reps on AllPro week by week (program calls for it). Comes test week (12 rep week), I end up failing. I could get 12 reps on 1st but not on the second set.
    Well regardless of your numbers, lifting for 3 months you'd be a newbie no matter way pretty much.

    Are you entirely sure you're pushing your hardest? One common theme we see is people claim to work out 'hard' but they really don't exert proper levels of effort. You say you're lifting to 'failure', but what does that really mean to you on this program?
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    That's exactly my point. You don't have to drop to 157. You could drop 5-10 lbs then spend a couple of months on slow mass gain.

    If you didn't get weaker, you probably didn't lose muscle.

    You are probably overhinking stuff about P ratio. If you aren't lean when you do mass gain, all it means is don't use a large surplus (you probably never have to do this anyway).
    Will add to Suffolk point. I'm fat, like over 25% bf most likely.
    Have gained tricep and hamstring mass at least, probably other that I just don't notice.
    Been around the same bodyweight for 6 weeks.
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  21. #51
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Well regardless of your numbers, lifting for 3 months you'd be a newbie no matter way pretty much.

    Are you entirely sure you're pushing your hardest? One common theme we see is people claim to work out 'hard' but they really don't exert proper levels of effort. You say you're lifting to 'failure', but what does that really mean to you on this program?
    IF I feel the burn on 11th rep. And 12th rep I can’t move the bar past 50% of the rep.. I’d say that’s failure

    I went from deadlifting 85lbs to 215lbs - must be doing something right? Not sure man why I’m stuck in this rut.

    In really do believe that I was underestimating recovery needs while working out and was not recovering well...I have been concentrating more on recovery recently and after I stop cutting I’ll know More...

    Last couple pounds lost, I can feel it coming off my belly and chest area more than every before so I want to continue loosing more fat at this point.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Well regardless of your numbers, lifting for 3 months you'd be a newbie no matter way pretty much.

    Are you entirely sure you're pushing your hardest? One common theme we see is people claim to work out 'hard' but they really don't exert proper levels of effort. You say you're lifting to 'failure', but what does that really mean to you on this program?
    Not every beginner has the same experience of rapid gains all the way to being an intermediate. In my experience, when my squat stalled at around 150lb I was actually exerting too much effort, training all the way to failure, sacrificing form and ended up injuring myself. Turns out what I needed was slower progression - I'm well beyond the newbie gains phase (having already gained about 20lb of muscle), despite still squatting and benching less than bodyweight.
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    Originally Posted by RapidFail View Post
    Not every beginner has the same experience of rapid gains all the way to being an intermediate. In my experience, when my squat stalled at around 150lb I was actually exerting too much effort, training all the way to failure, sacrificing form and ended up injuring myself. Turns out what I needed was slower progression - I'm well beyond the newbie gains phase (having already gained about 20lb of muscle), despite still squatting and benching less than bodyweight.
    My main point was that he's still a novice if it's only been 3 months... but certainly there can be different reasons for lack of progress
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    I’ll continue my cut another month and switch back to a slow bulk even though I’ll be high body fat still.
    That's a bad idea. As someone who tries to build muscle there's really no reason to be over 20% body fat. And the only time you should come close to 20% is at the end of a long bulk.

    How are your eating habits? How many grams of
    1 protein
    2 fiber
    3 vegetables
    4 fruit

    Do you consume per day?
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    On The True Path Dorich's Avatar
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    Figure out your main goal. Right now it seems to be all over the place.

    What is your PRIORITY?

    If you need some fat loss inspiration, my story might help: https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=173909811

    I'm also a big fan of zig-zagging calories. You don't require a 24-hour fast to do that, but just aim for a weekly X amount of kcal.

    If your priority is muscle building, don't be in a deficit for a long time.

    If you carry significant amounts of fat at this point, do not bulk.

    If you are trying to maintain your weight and make gains, it might be very difficult / next to impossible if you already had your newbie gains.

    So pick either (a) further fat loss, (b) slight surplus and muscle building, or (c) maintaining weight.

    Good luck. You can do it.
    "Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

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    Originally Posted by RapidFail View Post
    Not every beginner has the same experience of rapid gains all the way to being an intermediate. In my experience, when my squat stalled at around 150lb I was actually exerting too much effort, training all the way to failure, sacrificing form and ended up injuring myself. Turns out what I needed was slower progression - I'm well beyond the newbie gains phase (having already gained about 20lb of muscle), despite still squatting and benching less than bodyweight.
    To me it feels like I’m in this category. Gains are not coming fast anymore and my lifts are still poverty.

    I’m giving allpro a try for a few cycles to see if I can make gains. One thing is certain - I’m not making gains at 500 deficit. It’s not working for me. I am maintaining my lifts and I enjoy working out. It’s not a chore for me atall. And I like to push - if you know allpro, you start with 10RM weight and start with 8 reps. Next 4 weeks you keep adding a rep. I got all lifts pretty much till 11 rep week.

    12 rep week is test week, and I failed my lifts on this week.

    So I’m continuing my cut and repeating the weight - maybe this time around I’ll pass my lifts and get to add weight next cycle.

    What was your height / weight / bodyfat and lifts when you switched? Which program did you switch to?
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  27. #57
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    My main point was that he's still a novice if it's only been 3 months... but certainly there can be different reasons for lack of progress
    Been lifting more than 3 months. Actually if I look back I started seriously in September 2019. Due to injuries and me grinding the failed weight instead of resetting on Fierce 5, I did not make much progress past first 7 to so weeks.

    I did very slow cuts (0.25 to 0.5lbs per week) - I stayed at maintenance several months. Also did a small surplus from Jan 2020 to May 2020.

    In a deficit, I don’t get gains. Period. I made gains when I was in surplus but maybe my fat is hiding the muscle.

    Sleep was not on point - better now but still not to the point. Maybe that’s what’s killing my gains?

    My nutrition and macros are in check. Now, after making mistakes and learning from the form and articles and y’all, I do real well in setting targets and gaining / loosing accordingly.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    Been lifting more than 3 months. Actually if I look back I started seriously in September 2019. Due to injuries and me grinding the failed weight instead of resetting on Fierce 5, I did not make much progress past first 7 to so weeks.

    I did very slow cuts (0.25 to 0.5lbs per week) - I stayed at maintenance several months. Also did a small surplus from Jan 2020 to May 2020.

    In a deficit, I don’t get gains. Period. I made gains when I was in surplus but maybe my fat is hiding the muscle.

    Sleep was not on point - better now but still not to the point. Maybe that’s what’s killing my gains?

    My nutrition and macros are in check. Now, after making mistakes and learning from the form and articles and y’all, I do real well in setting targets and gaining / loosing accordingly.
    In post #48 you said ‘a few months’...

    How is September 2019-now a few months?
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    That's a bad idea. As someone who tries to build muscle there's really no reason to be over 20% body fat. And the only time you should come close to 20% is at the end of a long bulk.

    How are your eating habits? How many grams of
    1 protein
    2 fiber
    3 vegetables
    4 fruit

    Do you consume per day?
    Well I feel pretty skinny already at 160lbs.

    I get 163g protien, 150g carbs (32 or grams fiber), 72g fat. In a deficit and loosing little over 1lb per week while maintaining lifts.

    I try to eat 80g Fruits a day (banana, berries, cherries, whatever frozen I got) and couple servings of veggies (asparagus, broccoli, spinach, mushrooms).

    I don’t think diet is my problem. It’s probably sleep. Or just that I’m a fuking weakling maybe and not built for this. Haha
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